Joe
Modeling:
Providence & Worcester Railroad
"East Providence Secondary"
HO scale
With rail, it's a compromise. Code 83 has the most options as it's the most popular today. However, it's roughly 132 lb. rail. This is heavy stuff, but RR's like the New Haven were installing it back in the 1950's.
Code 70 is roughly 107 lb. rail, which was the common mainline rail for the first half of the 1900's. However, Code 70 track is fairly limited when it comes to diamond and switch selection.
Historically, only the PRR used 155 lb. rail (Code 100). Today, 155 lb. rail is found on modern roads, with even some 156 lb. rail being used in places. Code 100 is the old standard for our hobby, and is widely available in the secondhand market for cheap money.
For my NH layout, I used Code 83 because it was a compromise I could live with: better looking than Code 100 with more availability than Code 70. I bought Atlas Code 83 because I was able to get it for $1.99 a yard (10+ years ago, now).
Paul A. Cutler III
"Freight Cars of the '40s and '50's" by Jeff Wilson, recently published by Kalmbach, has a lot of usefull info for that era.
https://kalmbachhobbystore.com/garden-railroading/12489__Freight-Cars-of-the-40s-and-50s
I have found the rails on short lines and spurs across Canada to range from 90-110 pound rail, almost always made by Dominion Steel. That would place it in scale at the Code 70-75 range.
In 1942, the very largest rail in use was about 155 pound, which roughly translates to Code 100. I understand it could be found on certain very heavy duty lines of the Bessemer & Lake Erie, New Haven, and Pennsylvania Railroad. On most railroads, the very heaviest rail would be in the 130-140 pound range, which is roughly equivalent to Code 83. This is the size used by mainlines of the C&O, UP and SP, which were operating Alleghenies, Big Boys and Cab Forwards respectively in 1942. Many mainlines used rail in the 90 to 120 pound size, which is approximated by Code 70. Lesser lines, as well as many secondary tracks and passing tracks, would have used even lighter rail, best represented by Code 55. The numbers I have used above are approximations.
In actual practice, I think Code 70 is your best bet. You might want to try some Code 55 on secondary tracks. Painting the rail can de-emphasize its size, so that it may look smaller. Weathering the ties and planting weeds between ties can contribute to the look of lighter construction. I would use the Code 83 components in unseen staging areas if I were you.
Most prototype frog numbers are higher than 6 or 8, but those are perfectly acceptable for most model purposes. Even number 4 and 5 can be practical with models, especially if you run small equipment, but my personal suggestion is to stick with number 6 or higher as much as possible.
Tom
From a practical standpoint, code 83 has the most variety and types of track pieces. It emulates standard main line rail.
Just for fun, I did a quick search on Walthers for code 83 track; it returned 307 items; code 70 returned 155 items and code 55 returned 65 items. Of course the search has a lot of duplicate items from different manufacturers and would include things like EZ track & clones
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
HObbyguyI'll add a bit of insight on this- even going forward visibility looking along the length of the boiler is very poor and I relied entirely on the fireman to watch down the line on left-hand curves.
Absolutely.. Now add a poor grade of coal that put out a lot of thick smoke and you had a serious issue at times especially when the smoke blocked your forward view.
The engineers would lean out the window just far enough to see along the side on the tender and poor head brakeman would be riding the deck of the tender like I mention above.
The same issues applies when looking down the long hood of a road switcher like a GP9. Worst was a SD45 with the long hood being the front.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Our last posts crossed but one more thought on this- if you look you can see the pad extending outside the bottom of the window in my second pic. Nice soft seating useful when backing up. Not exactly up to OSHA standards but better than a hard steel sill.
Huntington Junction - Freelance based on the B&O and C&O in coal country before the merger... doing it my way. Now working on phase 3. - Walt
For photos and more: http://www.wkhobbies.com/model-railroad/
Brakie, I am hardly a RR historian and no doubt you are right- they did what they had to to get the job done. So no reason not to consider point-to-point with that in mind. I haven't built my second dogbone end yet so I've been run my steamers backwards. But looking forward to being able to turn them around.
I'll add a bit of insight on this- even going forward visibility looking along the length of the boiler is very poor and I relied entirely on the fireman to watch down the line on left-hand curves. Visibility going backward is non-existant without hanging way out the window and I didn't feel at all comfortable when I had to do that. I can't imagine that would be fun for an extended run- they must have had a spotter up on the tender watching back in the day.
Yes very dirty, hot, and hard work with an element of danger especially by today's standards. After just a few hours running we had to change clothes before getting into the car for the ride back to Vegas. We gave away our gloves and my wife even gave away her jacket to a "firegirl" there- she was sure getting it clean again was hopeless.
As a fun fact..Engineers would make a backrest for these reverse moves and would place the backrest in the cab's window.This ease their back strain while operating in reverse.
Now the real fun part.. The head brakeman would ride the tender deck (that's the flat area where the tender's water hatch is located) in order to protect the reverse travel. You can imagine what it was like in inclement weather.
As Larry says, reverse operation of steam locos was quite common. A local switcher, or a shortline or branchline train, often had no place to turn at the end of a run, so it simply ran to the opposite end of the train. On many lines, engines were never turned. The practice is still common on a lot of tourist operations such as the Strasburg, which is one of the country's most successful tourist railroads.
Operationally, a steam loco is equally powerful in either direction. Because of the design of the suspension, there can be stability issues when steam engines are operated in reverse at high speeds, so employees are instructed to reduce the speed when operating in reverse. Sometimes a trailing truck can help in reverse moves, but not always. Leading trucks are designed to support weight AND to guide the engine into curves; trailing trucks usually just supported weight.
The classic means of turning an engine is with a turntable, but a wye was probably more common because it cost less to build and maintain, even though it took up more space. Relocating a turntable was also much more problematic than relocating a wye. Balloon loops were rare, but could be found occasionally. I understand that's what the N&W used at Winston Salem, NC.
Servicing was obviously necessary, but the means might range from a massive coal dock, down to a simple coal pile and conveyor belt, or a bucket and crane arrangement. We think of large water tanks as essential servicing components; but in actual fact, some small time operations just used a hose from the municipal water supply. The bottom line was that the job had to get done, with whatever resources were available.
HObbyguyYes they will back up, but my impression is that this was not a normal mode of operation.
Back in the steam era that was very common on urban locals,transfer runs,some branch lines that no longer had the means to turn a engine and even some mine runs to return tender first to the yard. Today's steam powered tourist roads is fine but,they lost the understanding of railroading as it was and what was required to get the job done.
Railroading for a living in the steam era was not work for the faint hearted. It was harsh work under harsher conditions where your constant companion was death or injury..
Just read you are planning at going on an excursion. That should give you some good insight!
Can't help it... here are a couple of pics from my experience. A consolidation may be a relatively small loco, but it is still a big fire-breathing powerful monster. And yes that's me at the throttle waving :)
I knew almost nothing about either steam or railroad operations until I spent a couple of days at the Nevada Northern RR in Nevada a few years ago, shortly after I began building my layout. I took part in their "be the engineer" program so got to operate their 1909 Alco 2-8-0, and also had full run of the yard and facilities. It was the first time that I ever actually saw a real steam loco in operation. And the experience turned out to be very useful when designing/building my railroad.
As the guys have discussed it takes a huge amount of maintenance and support to run steam. The crew started at 5:00 AM getting the fire going, lubing etc. for the first excursion that ran at 10:00. So there needs to be an engine house or dedicated area for that work to take place. And there is coal and water supply to consider. The tipple at NN is no longer in use and they load coal with a tractor with a front end bucket now, but there should be coal storage somewhere in the yard with ways of loading and unloading it. There should also be an ash pit- at NN this looks like a little bridge with a grate and pit underneath. They put the loco on top and open up the bottom of the firebox to drop the ash. If really modeling accurately you would want areas for all of this.
As far as operations goes, the biggest difference is that steamers are designed to go in one direction. Yes they will back up, but my impression is that this was not a normal mode of operation. The yard at NN has a wye and there is also a wye at an old mine that is used to turn the train back around to head back to the yard. Guessing here but for small lines like NN this was probably much more common than a turntable.
Even with the loco fired up and ready to go it took the better part of an hour in the yard to move cars around and negotiate the wye before we finally got on the mainline and I put my hand on the throttle. Working our way through the yard turnouts took a bunch of time- there was a lot more to it than I realized. As far as operation on the mainline goes, the one thing that struck me was that a lot of the grades were steeper than what I am used to seeing on modern railroads around here. The grades made it more fun to operate the loco since constant attention was required to maintain proper speed. And pulling the hills and braking going down made me feel good about the grades that had already built into my railroad design.
So how to apply all this to the layout- in my case I had already designed a double dogbone to keep the steamers going forward. And a yard with a turntable. But I added a reversing loop to get trains turned around since the turntable is way off in the future. And I am considering skipping the turntable in favor of a wye, but a wye takes up a lot of territory and haven't figured out how to fit it into my space. I am also re-thinking the yard design to make more room for all the support areas.
Don't know if any of this helps, but food for thought.
To add to Rich's scare facts I freely admit when I was a kid a PRR J1 would scare the dickens out of me as would a C&O Allegheny.
I remember the last days of steam in Columbus,Ohio in the mid 50s and yet never had a desire to model those days. More the pity I suppose.
mammay76Hello everyone!! I've always been a modern day modeler. Being 39 years old I've never seen live steam so I've never been interested by it. I was watching a WW2 movie the other night, admiring our "greatest generation" like always, and it hit me.......STEAM!!!!!! The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!!
The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!!
As a child of the Greatest Generation parents, we lived 5 houses away from the Grand Trunk Western railroad mainline in Chicago. Me and my buddies cut holes in the chain link fence to reach the track and wait for the steamers to arrive. We knew long in advance of its arrival that a steam engine was coming. We laid down and put our ears on the rails. You could feel and hear the steam engine before you could see it. Then, you could see the plume of smoke in the distance. Then, you could see the headlight. At last, the monster would come into view.
As it approached, it was like your big brother scaring the dickens out of you in a dark room. You were too old to cry, but too young to laugh. When that engine passed by, the sounds were deafening, the smoke was choking, and everything grew dark around you. My mother would race out to remove laundry hanging to dry in the back yard. Soot was everywhere.
Make sure you find a place where a steam engine is in operation on a mainline track so you can have that experience that was common to my generation as youngsters. My son lives in Jefferson City MO, and he recently witnessed first hand a Union Pacific steam engine running through town as part of an exhibition. He was spellbound as were his kids. Only that way can you fully appreciate the awesomeness of a steam engine.
Rich
Alton Junction
I'm just about all in for this!!
my first attempt like I stated earlier will be a simple shelf layout in my finished basement. Measuring 10'10" x 12", with staging on both sides via a few holes in the drywall. Track plan will be very simple, a passing siding with a spur to a freight house, maybe a coal trestle as well, and another small industry.
my next step is to determine the appropriate freight cars and passenger car as well as my first steam engine!!!!!
What code track would be appropriate? Is atlas code 83 to high for the mainline?
Thanks again everyone! I'll post up a track plan at some point this week!
Paul3 Joe,I'm about the same age (40), and I model the steam era. However, it's for the New Haven RR, the SNE's rival. Still, certain things still apply. 1). Maintenance. Steam was maintenance heavy, and required turning facilities just about everywhere. You'd also have coal towers, sand towers, water tanks, ash dumps, inspection pits, and some kind of light machining area in most every engine terminal. The size of these facilities would vary based on use, but they were all there. 2). Steam locos need water...constantly. You'd see lineside water tanks (tho' usually dispensed through water cranes alongside the track), along the mainline from time to time. Usually these standpipes were seen at stations (since they were stopping there anyways...). 3). Steam loco-powered trains would routinely need pushers to not only climb a grade but also to leave the yard. They'd generally try to hang as much tonnage as they could behind the locos, and if they didn't make it they'd have to double the hill. 4). Generally speaking, the trailing truck is the clue to a steam loco's ability. The existance of a trailing truck, and it's size, means there's more firebox than the 4-4-0, 2-8-0 and other locos that end in "-0". A 2-wheel trailing truck means it's got more power than one that doesn't (usually), and a 4-wheel trailing truck is even more than that. Just about anything that ends in a "-0" is "small steam", "-2" is "medium steam", and "-4" is "heavy steam". There are, of course exceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb. If you have any specific questions, ask away. About the SNE, you really should get the Larry Lowenthal's Titanic Railroad: The Southern New England. It's a great book about the last "railroad war" in New England. You should also follow Marty McGuirk's layout and his hobby articles here: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/569 And his website:http://www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/Lastly, if I may be so bold, may I suggest taking a look at my club's custom car offerings? The South Shore Model Railway Club of Hingham, MA had two 40' boxcars in two SNE paint schemes custom painted for us by Kadee. We still have some left: http://ssmrc.org/clubcars.aspx (just scroll down past our "home road" East Coast Lines boxcars) These boxcars use all the CN/GT/CV fonts and car data, so they're as realistic as it gets for a railroad that never was (Marty McGuirk's layout has several of our cars on it). We will also have these for sale at the Springfield show in about 7 weeks.Oh, and one weird thing about the CV (on which all SNE's traffic would travel after Palmer): they didn't run big steamers down to Massachusetts. Even tho' CV had 2-10-4's near Canada, as the RR went further South the bridges got weaker. This meant that CV had to run doubleheaded 2-8-0's down to Palmer...seperated by several cars to keep the bridges from collapsing. Paul A. Cutler III
Joe,I'm about the same age (40), and I model the steam era. However, it's for the New Haven RR, the SNE's rival. Still, certain things still apply.
1). Maintenance. Steam was maintenance heavy, and required turning facilities just about everywhere. You'd also have coal towers, sand towers, water tanks, ash dumps, inspection pits, and some kind of light machining area in most every engine terminal. The size of these facilities would vary based on use, but they were all there.
2). Steam locos need water...constantly. You'd see lineside water tanks (tho' usually dispensed through water cranes alongside the track), along the mainline from time to time. Usually these standpipes were seen at stations (since they were stopping there anyways...).
3). Steam loco-powered trains would routinely need pushers to not only climb a grade but also to leave the yard. They'd generally try to hang as much tonnage as they could behind the locos, and if they didn't make it they'd have to double the hill.
4). Generally speaking, the trailing truck is the clue to a steam loco's ability. The existance of a trailing truck, and it's size, means there's more firebox than the 4-4-0, 2-8-0 and other locos that end in "-0". A 2-wheel trailing truck means it's got more power than one that doesn't (usually), and a 4-wheel trailing truck is even more than that. Just about anything that ends in a "-0" is "small steam", "-2" is "medium steam", and "-4" is "heavy steam". There are, of course exceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb.
If you have any specific questions, ask away.
About the SNE, you really should get the Larry Lowenthal's Titanic Railroad: The Southern New England. It's a great book about the last "railroad war" in New England.
You should also follow Marty McGuirk's layout and his hobby articles here: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/569
And his website:http://www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/Lastly, if I may be so bold, may I suggest taking a look at my club's custom car offerings? The South Shore Model Railway Club of Hingham, MA had two 40' boxcars in two SNE paint schemes custom painted for us by Kadee. We still have some left: http://ssmrc.org/clubcars.aspx (just scroll down past our "home road" East Coast Lines boxcars) These boxcars use all the CN/GT/CV fonts and car data, so they're as realistic as it gets for a railroad that never was (Marty McGuirk's layout has several of our cars on it). We will also have these for sale at the Springfield show in about 7 weeks.Oh, and one weird thing about the CV (on which all SNE's traffic would travel after Palmer): they didn't run big steamers down to Massachusetts. Even tho' CV had 2-10-4's near Canada, as the RR went further South the bridges got weaker. This meant that CV had to run doubleheaded 2-8-0's down to Palmer...seperated by several cars to keep the bridges from collapsing.
Thanks Paul! And thank you to everyone for all the responses! There's some great info and discussion being shared here!
i do have a copy of Larry's book and can't describe how valuable it's been! I first saw Marty's layout in the 2000 MRP, and it actually opened my eyes to the SNE's almost existence!
ive decided to focus my first efforts on the center of Brimfield MA, where there would have been at least a station, freight house and a water tower with a passing siding after the climb to the summit of Fenton mountain, which could be used as a holding track for trains waiting there turn for the horseshoe curved trestle.
While I haven't read though it completely, another good book that I think would also be a good idea to get/borrow is "Steam and Diesel Locomotive Terminals and Service Facilities" by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. I picked it up at a swap meet last summer. Given that I have plans for an area that handles both diesel and steam, I thought it would be useful. It might also be useful for you in building the needed service areas.
mammay76Hello everyone!! I've always been a modern day modeler. Being 39 years old I've never seen live steam so I've never been interested by it. While looking for inspiration for a new layout I keep finding myself wanting to model my hometown railroad that never was completed, the Southern New England railroad. I grew up in Sturbridge MA, right near the old roadbed. It's funny because only a few short years ago I discovered that it was supposed to be a railroad...I've been obsessed with it ever since, doing many field trips and and field research. I've always wanted to model the line between Brimfield MA, into Fiskdale MA in a modern day setting. However it just never seemed right, to many what ifs and not enough for operations, mainly through freights to Providence and back to Palmer MA...so it never turned into a layout...just day dreams! I was watching a WW2 movie the other night, admiring our "greatest generation" like always, and it hit me.......STEAM!!!!!! To be more specific, Late November/ early December 1942. This would provide the traffic I desire, and would incorporate my favorite railroad and the generation I admire the most!!! The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!! Sure I've read about people's steam era layouts, but a milk train?? Ice houses? LOL!! So I figured I'd start this thread to get a good discussion going about steam operations, freight traffic, and passenger traffic! My plan is to eventually build the real layout in Ho scale in a 10 x 16 room, but for now I'm going to build a small shelf layout to get my feet wet in steam. I'll post up a track plan as we move along. For now let's talk about a small town situation, a spur running 2 miles to service a small town off a mainline and terminating there. What type of traffic would it generate? I'm thinking for starters a small station and freight depot...what else? I assume I'll need a turntable to turn the engine around? Or would the engine back up/ push 2 miles? Would a coal dealer/trestle be appropriate? I have many questions, looking forward to discussing and sharing this with everyone!! Joe
mammay76Hello everyone!! I've always been a modern day modeler. Being 39 years old I've never seen live steam so I've never been interested by it. While looking for inspiration for a new layout I keep finding myself wanting to model my hometown railroad that never was completed, the Southern New England railroad. I grew up in Sturbridge MA, right near the old roadbed. It's funny because only a few short years ago I discovered that it was supposed to be a railroad...I've been obsessed with it ever since, doing many field trips and and field research. I've always wanted to model the line between Brimfield MA, into Fiskdale MA in a modern day setting. However it just never seemed right, to many what ifs and not enough for operations, mainly through freights to Providence and back to Palmer MA...so it never turned into a layout...just day dreams! I was watching a WW2 movie the other night, admiring our "greatest generation" like always, and it hit me.......STEAM!!!!!! To be more specific, Late November/ early December 1942. This would provide the traffic I desire, and would incorporate my favorite railroad and the generation I admire the most!!! The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!! Sure I've read about people's steam era layouts, but a milk train?? Ice houses? LOL!! So I figured I'd start this thread to get a good discussion going about steam operations, freight traffic, and passenger traffic! My plan is to eventually build the real layout in Ho scale in a 10 x 16 room, but for now I'm going to build a small shelf layout to get my feet wet in steam. I'll post up a track plan as we move along. For now let's talk about a small town situation, a spur running 2 miles to service a small town off a mainline and terminating there. What type of traffic would it generate? I'm thinking for starters a small station and freight depot...what else? I assume I'll need a turntable to turn the engine around? Or would the engine back up/ push 2 miles? Would a coal dealer/trestle be appropriate? I have many questions, looking forward to discussing and sharing this with everyone!! Jo
You might consider getting in touch with Marty McGuirk, who actually was developing layout based on the idea that the SNE had actually been built. http://centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-becomes-of-southern-new-england.html?m=1
Andre
Larry, take a look at the Wikipedia page for the RR, linked above. The line was envisioned as a seaport connection to the CV, it just was not completed. With that link imagined compete there is a lot of potential customers on the way to Providence, RI
Even with 9 customers these tiny railroads would struggle since these customers may not receive more then 3-5 cars a month and few passengers going to catch a train on the connecting road.
Three of the best reads on this subject IMHO is Elmer Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Kentucky, Ghost Railroads of Indiana and Ghost Railroads of Tennessee.
BRAKIE jecorbett It seems to me a two mile spur would be plausible if you had a major customer at the end of the line or a lot of smaller customers. Maybe in our HO world that would hold true but,in the real world some of these 2-5 mile railroads lack major shippers and had precious few customers.. There were some that hauled finish or veneer lumber and these railroads cease to exist after the mill closed. These tiny railroads was built more for prestige and high hopes then anything. I know of one that was built for a major industry that never materialized still, this one horse railroad puffed and wheezed it way until 1955 when it cease operation with nothing more then nine customers located on a team track. The passenger station still stands.
jecorbett It seems to me a two mile spur would be plausible if you had a major customer at the end of the line or a lot of smaller customers.
Maybe in our HO world that would hold true but,in the real world some of these 2-5 mile railroads lack major shippers and had precious few customers.. There were some that hauled finish or veneer lumber and these railroads cease to exist after the mill closed.
These tiny railroads was built more for prestige and high hopes then anything. I know of one that was built for a major industry that never materialized still, this one horse railroad puffed and wheezed it way until 1955 when it cease operation with nothing more then nine customers located on a team track. The passenger station still stands.
In my original statement I said it was unlikely one or two small customers could support a short line. Nine customers is actually more what I had in mind when I said such a railroad would need lots of smaller customer if it didn't have a major one at the end of the line. In our model world, nine is probably a lot more than most of us would have in a single town. On the branch I am building now, I'm going to have three in each town not including the mail and express business. I'd like to add a team track at the terminus but I am having trouble finding the space for it. I know a team track doesn't take up a lot of space but I have tried to cram a lot into limited space so it's not as easy as it sounds.
jecorbettIt seems to me a two mile spur would be plausible if you had a major customer at the end of the line or a lot of smaller customers.
There is an entire book about the SNE, its called "Titanic Railroad:The Southern New England" by Larry Lowenthal. Check the hobby shop in Palmer, Ma (also have dinner at the Steaming Tender), they had a couple copies last time I was there.
As far as traffic on short branchlines, look into information on the New Haven Wood River branch (think thats what is was called) and the Narragansett Pier railroad, both were in RI.