Joe
Modeling:
Providence & Worcester Railroad
"East Providence Secondary"
HO scale
A start would be some more research into the prototype. I was going to recommend the Salisbury Point Railroad Historical Society, but they closed last July and their assets are now owned by the Amesbury Carriage Museum. You can contact them at http://www.amesburycarriagemuseum.com/
Two others that may have some information are
MYSTIC VALLEY RAILWAY SOCIETY http://www.mysticvalleyrs.org/
Amherst Railway Society http://www.amherstrail.org/ARS/
Some other local historical sociery may have information as well
Lacking any other prototype information, you could just freelance a railroad using that name. Design a typical New England short line in the 1940s timeframe. In any event, modeling such a small railroad will require a certain amount of guessing, making your own decals and such. It would be a bit of a challenge, but doable. The forum is here to help...
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Thanks G Paine!! I'm actually all set on the overall track plan from living in the area, satelite photos and track maps from several resources. I'm just curious as to common steam era operations.
Hi, Joe
I can understand your new-found enthusiasm in branch line, WWII era railroading. It sounds like you are taking the "shot-gun" approach of trying to learn everything all at once. And sometimes that's a good thing!
My father came from a family of railroaders who lived in Barre Plains, Mass., on the Ware River Branch. Here's a photo of my grandfather at the B&M station. This little town was actually served by both the B&A and B&M.
Although the internet has become a wealth of information, and at times, mis-information, I still prefer good old-fashioned books for resources of information.
As George mentioned, take a look at some of the historical societies and library sources.
http://www.bedforddepot.org/store/page7.html
Good Luck, Ed
For a nice concise overview of the whys and hows of the self-propelled boilers that once powered American rails, and a wide selection of photos and elevation drawings of steam locomotives, it's hard to beat Steam Locomotives (aka Model Railroader Cyclopedia, Vol. I) published by our friendly hosts. Then it's a matter of looking around for suitable models that are of New England origin or could plausably have been run there. That cuts out the Western humongulocos (4-12-2 and Mallet articulateds) but could permit a Russian decapod or two (acquired cheap at auction in 1920.) The Russian decs never ran in New England (afaik) but they could have if bought used from the RDG or NYS&W.
My own roster is purely Japanese prototype (or freelance to Japanese standards) and I still find the info in Steam Locomotives useful.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
For short lines with modest trackage, speeds, and haulage, I would be looking for one of the ubiquitous 2-8-0 Consolidation wheel arrangements as I mentioned to you where you asked this question on another forum. With most of its weight on the eight drivers, it was gentle on track, but it also provided a lot of tractive effort as a result. With its engine truck, even if just one axle, it was capable of speeds in the 60 mph range, especially if its drivers were at least 60" in diameter.
The 2-8-0 outnumbered all other arrangements under boilers from the period 1905 until the end of steam with the only possible competition coming from its sister, the Mikado 2-8-2.
All the folks advice is great, but if you really want to know more about steam, find the nearest working steam railroad. Preferably one that has a real decent steamer that is not all done up with fake diamond stacks, ridiculous paint jobs, etc., but a real one as run in "th' day". Go there and hang out near the engine as much as possible. Feel its living presence, the panting of the engine, the air brake pump's 'ca chung-ca chung', the popit valve's ocassional letting off a torrent of hissing steam, the dripping water from the valve chests and other points. You'll also get the smell of coal smoke and hot oils and greases if you get close enough. If it is a big one, go to the area of the fire box and listen to the roar of boiling water, the injector and look at the grate ash pan with its spent red coals that have dropped through the grates.
Do not ride the train, for it is little different from a diesel train ride. Instead, stay outside to watch and photograph the engine as it leaves and enjoy the sight sound and smell of it all.
If you do this, you will learn more about steam and its living presence that that which is to be found in books and pictures of a by-gone era.
The next best thing is to watch some of the thousands of videos of real steam in action on you tube. However, even this is a rather shallow stream to put your feet into, related to steam railroading.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Not so much to do with steam, but the layout in geneeral. The railroad needed a purpose to be in the area in the first place, such as a mine or quarry come to mind. The railroad would then have brought other businesses to the area, lumber yard, feed store or similar ones. Even though the original customer may have faded from prominence, there could be enough call for service to keep the line operating, maybe only once or twice a week. If it can be made a connecting link between two more active lines, transfer traffic would generate revenue.
Small steam could include 2-6-0's also.
Have fun,
As I understand it, the Southern New England Railway was intended to be developed by the interests that controlled the Central Vermont and its parent, the Grand Trunk. It's probably safe to assume that the road would have been using 2-8-0's of Central Vermont design in 1942. Back in the early 2000's, Marty McGuirk wrote an MR article telling how he built one from a Bachmann 2-8-0.
I'm sure your best bet would be to contact the Central Vermont Railway Historical Society, and join up.
Tom
The Wikipedia article is a good starting point for any of us reading this thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_New_England_Railway
As a connecting line from the port of Providence, Rhode Island, to Palmer, MA, there is opportunity for a lot traffic and varieties of loads. Of more interest, perhaps, would be the variety of bridges that were proposed to span the necessary waterways and valleys.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
You may be able to find some useful info here for steam era modeling in New England. http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/index.php?title=Rensselaer_Railroad_Heritage_Website
I have traced the SNE in Google Earth. The ROW was graded between Palmer, MA, and Woonsocket, RI. It is largely intact between those points but is segmented and only a short portion is a trail. I could find no sign of any construction work between Woonsocket and Providence, even in arial photos from the period. I assume it would have simply followed the banks of the Blackstone River between those points. Good choice, and have fun!
mammay76For now let's talk about a small town situation, a spur running 2 miles to service a small town off a mainline and terminating there. What type of traffic would it generate? I'm thinking for starters a small station and freight depot...what else? I assume I'll need a turntable to turn the engine around? Or would the engine back up/ push 2 miles? Would a coal dealer/trestle be appropriate?
First around the 1880s- around 1900 just about every small town wanted a railroad even though there as no real need but,many persisted and a railroad was built to serve two towns theirs and a nearby town with a railroad for outside connections.
What type of industries would more then likely be a coal dealer,lumber dealer and several team track served industries like a farm supply company,a animal feed dealer, a brick dealer etc. These industries would last into the 50s and as improved roads was built these industries would turn to trucks and the small short line would fade into the sunset and become a side note in local history.
A note of interest. A lot of these railroads never turn a profit and just manage to keep their heads above water.
What type of locomotive would these roads have? A small 2-6-0,4-6-0 or a small 2-8-0 would fill their limited needs. These was usually bought used from a bigger road. In some cases a modernized 4-4-0 would suffice because that's all they could afford.
As far as a turntable more then likely not since they would reverse (tender first) back to their terminal-usually a 2 track yard and a small engine house.Coal could be loaded by conveyor instead of a costly coal tipple and there would be a small wooden water tank.
Now the shortline may have had a wye that was large enough to serve the team track,station and small yard. These would be located inside the wye except for the station since it would be on the main line instead of being on either leg of the wye. The station would probably have a freight section where express and Aunt Jane's new Warm Morning wood or coal stove from Sears would be unloaded from the combine.
A good read would be Mixed Train Daily by Lucius Beebe.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Awesome stuff guys!! This is EXACTLY the type of info I'm looking for!!!! Thank you
MisterBeasleyThe Wikipedia article is a good starting point for any of us reading this thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_New_England_Railway As a connecting line from the port of Providence, Rhode Island, to Palmer, MA, there is opportunity for a lot traffic and varieties of loads. Of more interest, perhaps, would be the variety of bridges that were proposed to span the necessary waterways and valleys.
Interesting article. The mention of of Grand Trunk RR as the parent of this RR opens a lot of possibililties. The planned conenction to Central Vermont from Palmer, MA to the all-weather port of Providence, RI could be imagined as complete. If so, this raises a lot of possibilities for lots of traffic.
GT, located in Maine, was a subsidiary of Canadian National (as was CV) and ran from Portland, ME to Montreal. Canadian RR were always looking for connections to ice free ports from areas around the St Lawrence River so export shipments to and from the Canadian heartland could continue year round. In Portland, they had a couple of large grain elevators, a good sized passenger station,a small yard on the waterfront, and servicing facilities. There was a connection to MEC using Portland Terminal RR with street running on Commercial St. What was in Portland could be a basis for something in Providence.
These connections were very important during WWII because of German U-boat activity off the coast. War materials and troops from Canada could be assumed to arrive in Providence, be loaded on ships, and pass down Long Island Sound to New York to join convoys to Europe.
What we see in Maine for GT locomotives are similar in looks and paint schemes to CN locomotives.
Some references to GT:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Trunk_Railway
Maine Memories Networkhttps://www.mainememory.net/search/more?keywords=grand+trunk&original_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mainememory.net%2Fsearch%3Fkeywords%3Dgrand%2Btrunk%2BRR&refine=0&core_page_size=100&active_tab=core
Google images (also include GTW images)https://www.google.com/search?q=grand+trunk+railroad&biw=1280&bih=876&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4mYLN1MfJAhXCVD4KHUvlDqsQsAQIPQ
Your traffic would be dictated by the customers on your line. It seems to me a two mile spur would be plausible if you had a major customer at the end of the line or a lot of smaller customers. I suppose it's possible but I doubt such a spur would be built to service just one or two small customers. Railroads were built to make money and if there aren't enough cusotmers to justify the expense of laying and maintaining the track and running a train, it's unlikely a railroad would build such a line.
I have recently begun construction of my branchline to interchange with my around the basement double track mainline. Conceptually it is a little bigger than what you have in mind with an intermediate town in addition to the terminus. Each will have several freight customers. In addition the terminus is a summer resort town on a lake which will justify some passenger traffic as well. Although it is a fictional line I found a book about the old Ulster and Delaware RR which became the Catskill Mountain Branch of the NYC. I got a lot of good ideas about branchline operations from it and you might also. The title is The Old "Up and Down", subtitled Catskill Mountain Branch of the New York Central. It was published in 2003 by the Stony Clove and Catskill Mountain Press. I don't know if it is still in print but you might find a second hand copy of one on ebay or elsewhere. I certainly recommend it as a source of good information.
For motive power, the U&D ran 4-6-0s and these were acquired and relettered by the NYC when they took over the line. It would be a good choice as well for a small branchline in addition to some of the other recommendations.
There is an entire book about the SNE, its called "Titanic Railroad:The Southern New England" by Larry Lowenthal. Check the hobby shop in Palmer, Ma (also have dinner at the Steaming Tender), they had a couple copies last time I was there.
As far as traffic on short branchlines, look into information on the New Haven Wood River branch (think thats what is was called) and the Narragansett Pier railroad, both were in RI.
jecorbettIt seems to me a two mile spur would be plausible if you had a major customer at the end of the line or a lot of smaller customers.
Maybe in our HO world that would hold true but,in the real world some of these 2-5 mile railroads lack major shippers and had precious few customers.. There were some that hauled finish or veneer lumber and these railroads cease to exist after the mill closed.
These tiny railroads was built more for prestige and high hopes then anything. I know of one that was built for a major industry that never materialized still, this one horse railroad puffed and wheezed it way until 1955 when it cease operation with nothing more then nine customers located on a team track. The passenger station still stands.
BRAKIE jecorbett It seems to me a two mile spur would be plausible if you had a major customer at the end of the line or a lot of smaller customers. Maybe in our HO world that would hold true but,in the real world some of these 2-5 mile railroads lack major shippers and had precious few customers.. There were some that hauled finish or veneer lumber and these railroads cease to exist after the mill closed. These tiny railroads was built more for prestige and high hopes then anything. I know of one that was built for a major industry that never materialized still, this one horse railroad puffed and wheezed it way until 1955 when it cease operation with nothing more then nine customers located on a team track. The passenger station still stands.
jecorbett It seems to me a two mile spur would be plausible if you had a major customer at the end of the line or a lot of smaller customers.
In my original statement I said it was unlikely one or two small customers could support a short line. Nine customers is actually more what I had in mind when I said such a railroad would need lots of smaller customer if it didn't have a major one at the end of the line. In our model world, nine is probably a lot more than most of us would have in a single town. On the branch I am building now, I'm going to have three in each town not including the mail and express business. I'd like to add a team track at the terminus but I am having trouble finding the space for it. I know a team track doesn't take up a lot of space but I have tried to cram a lot into limited space so it's not as easy as it sounds.
Even with 9 customers these tiny railroads would struggle since these customers may not receive more then 3-5 cars a month and few passengers going to catch a train on the connecting road.
Three of the best reads on this subject IMHO is Elmer Sulzer's Ghost Railroads of Kentucky, Ghost Railroads of Indiana and Ghost Railroads of Tennessee.
Larry, take a look at the Wikipedia page for the RR, linked above. The line was envisioned as a seaport connection to the CV, it just was not completed. With that link imagined compete there is a lot of potential customers on the way to Providence, RI
mammay76Hello everyone!! I've always been a modern day modeler. Being 39 years old I've never seen live steam so I've never been interested by it. While looking for inspiration for a new layout I keep finding myself wanting to model my hometown railroad that never was completed, the Southern New England railroad. I grew up in Sturbridge MA, right near the old roadbed. It's funny because only a few short years ago I discovered that it was supposed to be a railroad...I've been obsessed with it ever since, doing many field trips and and field research. I've always wanted to model the line between Brimfield MA, into Fiskdale MA in a modern day setting. However it just never seemed right, to many what ifs and not enough for operations, mainly through freights to Providence and back to Palmer MA...so it never turned into a layout...just day dreams! I was watching a WW2 movie the other night, admiring our "greatest generation" like always, and it hit me.......STEAM!!!!!! To be more specific, Late November/ early December 1942. This would provide the traffic I desire, and would incorporate my favorite railroad and the generation I admire the most!!! The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!! Sure I've read about people's steam era layouts, but a milk train?? Ice houses? LOL!! So I figured I'd start this thread to get a good discussion going about steam operations, freight traffic, and passenger traffic! My plan is to eventually build the real layout in Ho scale in a 10 x 16 room, but for now I'm going to build a small shelf layout to get my feet wet in steam. I'll post up a track plan as we move along. For now let's talk about a small town situation, a spur running 2 miles to service a small town off a mainline and terminating there. What type of traffic would it generate? I'm thinking for starters a small station and freight depot...what else? I assume I'll need a turntable to turn the engine around? Or would the engine back up/ push 2 miles? Would a coal dealer/trestle be appropriate? I have many questions, looking forward to discussing and sharing this with everyone!! Joe
mammay76Hello everyone!! I've always been a modern day modeler. Being 39 years old I've never seen live steam so I've never been interested by it. While looking for inspiration for a new layout I keep finding myself wanting to model my hometown railroad that never was completed, the Southern New England railroad. I grew up in Sturbridge MA, right near the old roadbed. It's funny because only a few short years ago I discovered that it was supposed to be a railroad...I've been obsessed with it ever since, doing many field trips and and field research. I've always wanted to model the line between Brimfield MA, into Fiskdale MA in a modern day setting. However it just never seemed right, to many what ifs and not enough for operations, mainly through freights to Providence and back to Palmer MA...so it never turned into a layout...just day dreams! I was watching a WW2 movie the other night, admiring our "greatest generation" like always, and it hit me.......STEAM!!!!!! To be more specific, Late November/ early December 1942. This would provide the traffic I desire, and would incorporate my favorite railroad and the generation I admire the most!!! The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!! Sure I've read about people's steam era layouts, but a milk train?? Ice houses? LOL!! So I figured I'd start this thread to get a good discussion going about steam operations, freight traffic, and passenger traffic! My plan is to eventually build the real layout in Ho scale in a 10 x 16 room, but for now I'm going to build a small shelf layout to get my feet wet in steam. I'll post up a track plan as we move along. For now let's talk about a small town situation, a spur running 2 miles to service a small town off a mainline and terminating there. What type of traffic would it generate? I'm thinking for starters a small station and freight depot...what else? I assume I'll need a turntable to turn the engine around? Or would the engine back up/ push 2 miles? Would a coal dealer/trestle be appropriate? I have many questions, looking forward to discussing and sharing this with everyone!! Jo
You might consider getting in touch with Marty McGuirk, who actually was developing layout based on the idea that the SNE had actually been built. http://centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-becomes-of-southern-new-england.html?m=1
Andre
While I haven't read though it completely, another good book that I think would also be a good idea to get/borrow is "Steam and Diesel Locomotive Terminals and Service Facilities" by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. I picked it up at a swap meet last summer. Given that I have plans for an area that handles both diesel and steam, I thought it would be useful. It might also be useful for you in building the needed service areas.
Joe,I'm about the same age (40), and I model the steam era. However, it's for the New Haven RR, the SNE's rival. Still, certain things still apply.
1). Maintenance. Steam was maintenance heavy, and required turning facilities just about everywhere. You'd also have coal towers, sand towers, water tanks, ash dumps, inspection pits, and some kind of light machining area in most every engine terminal. The size of these facilities would vary based on use, but they were all there.
2). Steam locos need water...constantly. You'd see lineside water tanks (tho' usually dispensed through water cranes alongside the track), along the mainline from time to time. Usually these standpipes were seen at stations (since they were stopping there anyways...).
3). Steam loco-powered trains would routinely need pushers to not only climb a grade but also to leave the yard. They'd generally try to hang as much tonnage as they could behind the locos, and if they didn't make it they'd have to double the hill.
4). Generally speaking, the trailing truck is the clue to a steam loco's ability. The existance of a trailing truck, and it's size, means there's more firebox than the 4-4-0, 2-8-0 and other locos that end in "-0". A 2-wheel trailing truck means it's got more power than one that doesn't (usually), and a 4-wheel trailing truck is even more than that. Just about anything that ends in a "-0" is "small steam", "-2" is "medium steam", and "-4" is "heavy steam". There are, of course exceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb.
If you have any specific questions, ask away.
About the SNE, you really should get the Larry Lowenthal's Titanic Railroad: The Southern New England. It's a great book about the last "railroad war" in New England.
You should also follow Marty McGuirk's layout and his hobby articles here: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/569
And his website:http://www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/Lastly, if I may be so bold, may I suggest taking a look at my club's custom car offerings? The South Shore Model Railway Club of Hingham, MA had two 40' boxcars in two SNE paint schemes custom painted for us by Kadee. We still have some left: http://ssmrc.org/clubcars.aspx (just scroll down past our "home road" East Coast Lines boxcars) These boxcars use all the CN/GT/CV fonts and car data, so they're as realistic as it gets for a railroad that never was (Marty McGuirk's layout has several of our cars on it). We will also have these for sale at the Springfield show in about 7 weeks.Oh, and one weird thing about the CV (on which all SNE's traffic would travel after Palmer): they didn't run big steamers down to Massachusetts. Even tho' CV had 2-10-4's near Canada, as the RR went further South the bridges got weaker. This meant that CV had to run doubleheaded 2-8-0's down to Palmer...seperated by several cars to keep the bridges from collapsing.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3 Joe,I'm about the same age (40), and I model the steam era. However, it's for the New Haven RR, the SNE's rival. Still, certain things still apply. 1). Maintenance. Steam was maintenance heavy, and required turning facilities just about everywhere. You'd also have coal towers, sand towers, water tanks, ash dumps, inspection pits, and some kind of light machining area in most every engine terminal. The size of these facilities would vary based on use, but they were all there. 2). Steam locos need water...constantly. You'd see lineside water tanks (tho' usually dispensed through water cranes alongside the track), along the mainline from time to time. Usually these standpipes were seen at stations (since they were stopping there anyways...). 3). Steam loco-powered trains would routinely need pushers to not only climb a grade but also to leave the yard. They'd generally try to hang as much tonnage as they could behind the locos, and if they didn't make it they'd have to double the hill. 4). Generally speaking, the trailing truck is the clue to a steam loco's ability. The existance of a trailing truck, and it's size, means there's more firebox than the 4-4-0, 2-8-0 and other locos that end in "-0". A 2-wheel trailing truck means it's got more power than one that doesn't (usually), and a 4-wheel trailing truck is even more than that. Just about anything that ends in a "-0" is "small steam", "-2" is "medium steam", and "-4" is "heavy steam". There are, of course exceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb. If you have any specific questions, ask away. About the SNE, you really should get the Larry Lowenthal's Titanic Railroad: The Southern New England. It's a great book about the last "railroad war" in New England. You should also follow Marty McGuirk's layout and his hobby articles here: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/blog/569 And his website:http://www.centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/Lastly, if I may be so bold, may I suggest taking a look at my club's custom car offerings? The South Shore Model Railway Club of Hingham, MA had two 40' boxcars in two SNE paint schemes custom painted for us by Kadee. We still have some left: http://ssmrc.org/clubcars.aspx (just scroll down past our "home road" East Coast Lines boxcars) These boxcars use all the CN/GT/CV fonts and car data, so they're as realistic as it gets for a railroad that never was (Marty McGuirk's layout has several of our cars on it). We will also have these for sale at the Springfield show in about 7 weeks.Oh, and one weird thing about the CV (on which all SNE's traffic would travel after Palmer): they didn't run big steamers down to Massachusetts. Even tho' CV had 2-10-4's near Canada, as the RR went further South the bridges got weaker. This meant that CV had to run doubleheaded 2-8-0's down to Palmer...seperated by several cars to keep the bridges from collapsing. Paul A. Cutler III
Thanks Paul! And thank you to everyone for all the responses! There's some great info and discussion being shared here!
i do have a copy of Larry's book and can't describe how valuable it's been! I first saw Marty's layout in the 2000 MRP, and it actually opened my eyes to the SNE's almost existence!
ive decided to focus my first efforts on the center of Brimfield MA, where there would have been at least a station, freight house and a water tower with a passing siding after the climb to the summit of Fenton mountain, which could be used as a holding track for trains waiting there turn for the horseshoe curved trestle.
I'm just about all in for this!!
my first attempt like I stated earlier will be a simple shelf layout in my finished basement. Measuring 10'10" x 12", with staging on both sides via a few holes in the drywall. Track plan will be very simple, a passing siding with a spur to a freight house, maybe a coal trestle as well, and another small industry.
my next step is to determine the appropriate freight cars and passenger car as well as my first steam engine!!!!!
What code track would be appropriate? Is atlas code 83 to high for the mainline?
Thanks again everyone! I'll post up a track plan at some point this week!
mammay76Hello everyone!! I've always been a modern day modeler. Being 39 years old I've never seen live steam so I've never been interested by it. I was watching a WW2 movie the other night, admiring our "greatest generation" like always, and it hit me.......STEAM!!!!!! The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!!
The only problem...... I know NOTHING about steam!!!!!
As a child of the Greatest Generation parents, we lived 5 houses away from the Grand Trunk Western railroad mainline in Chicago. Me and my buddies cut holes in the chain link fence to reach the track and wait for the steamers to arrive. We knew long in advance of its arrival that a steam engine was coming. We laid down and put our ears on the rails. You could feel and hear the steam engine before you could see it. Then, you could see the plume of smoke in the distance. Then, you could see the headlight. At last, the monster would come into view.
As it approached, it was like your big brother scaring the dickens out of you in a dark room. You were too old to cry, but too young to laugh. When that engine passed by, the sounds were deafening, the smoke was choking, and everything grew dark around you. My mother would race out to remove laundry hanging to dry in the back yard. Soot was everywhere.
Make sure you find a place where a steam engine is in operation on a mainline track so you can have that experience that was common to my generation as youngsters. My son lives in Jefferson City MO, and he recently witnessed first hand a Union Pacific steam engine running through town as part of an exhibition. He was spellbound as were his kids. Only that way can you fully appreciate the awesomeness of a steam engine.
Rich
Alton Junction
To add to Rich's scare facts I freely admit when I was a kid a PRR J1 would scare the dickens out of me as would a C&O Allegheny.
I remember the last days of steam in Columbus,Ohio in the mid 50s and yet never had a desire to model those days. More the pity I suppose.