Cheers, the curious Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I guess I would have to say it is very important to me.Watching my N and Z scale trains cruizing past me in a blur just does not seem realistic to me. It amazes me the number of modelers in my age group (70 +) that think 20 to 40 smph is to slow.
I have got to the point I just reply "It ain't Lionel folks".Funny that remark offends some people.
Catt I guess I would have to say it is very important to me.Watching my N and Z scale trains cruizing past me in a blur just does not seem realistic to me. It amazes me the number of modelers in my age group (70 +) that think 20 to 40 smph is to slow. I have got to the point I just reply "It ain't Lionel folks".Funny that remark offends some people.
Correct me if I'm wrong here. But I believe prototype speeds for passenger trains in the 50s were 80-100 MPH. Which is what Rich wants to run his trains.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
MotleyCorrect me if I'm wrong here. But I believe prototype speeds for passenger trains in the 50s were 80-100 MPH. Which is what Rich wants to run his trains.
Depends on the signal system. max speed set by Federal Regs.
Dark territory (no block signal system) - max speed 59 mph.
Block signal territory (ABS/CTC) - max 79 mph
Automatic train stop terittory - max 100 plus.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Sure, there's prototype speeds - mostly on tangent track. Even 30" curves on our models (in HO) are rather sharp for the prototype and would be restricted to much slower speed. Prototypes don't pound across a #6 crossover at 80mph, either, even though our models can easily do it (unless your tracklaying is awfully ham-fisted).
So we compromise and run faster than the prototype would on equivalent trackage, but not max speed, most of the time. What's the right factor? Has anyone analyzed that? We've had all sorts of other factors analyzed based on the fact that physics doesn't scale, but what about relative allowed speeds based on track curvature, frog angle, and superelevation (or lack thereof)? Obviously the speed the prortype would be allowed on tagent track is going to be too fast, but the speed the prototype would be allowed on actual track as tight as typical model curves (assuming the prortype equipment could even negotiate the curve or switch in question) is equally too slow. So what's a good number to bend the rules so it doesn't look like we're always stuck in a restricted speed mode, but isn't so fast that it looks like we are, well, running Lionels? 2x the protoype's limit? 3x? Half the max?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A typical prototype train will run several miles from one town to the next at a given speed. The same model train will typically run several yards. If the model train gets there too quickly, there's not much sense that the railroad is serving its function of conquering space and time. Running too fast just feels wrong to me.
I have one friend who runs geared steam engines primarily because they tend to slow down the action and enforce a slower pace on the railroad.
I have also been disappointed to see some model railroad operations where cars are switched at breakneck speed, with gentle couplings being an unknown concept.
There are some model railroads where higher speeds can be justified because of the size of the layout (length of run) and the type of operation, but most of us don't have layouts that big. I tend to believe that, in most cases, moderate speeds are best and slower tends to be better.
One reason for engaging in this hobby in the first place is to relax. It seems to me that high speeds would discourage relaxation.
Tom
Jim Kelly had a very good recent column in MR on just this topic (it is called an N scale column but is usually of interest to anyone). Because some N scale engines are capable of running at hilarious speeds -- hundreds of scale mph -- they are often run far too fast, in some cases just to get them to run smoothly or pull full loads. This was a bigger problem for the early years of N scale but it remains somewhat the case.
I certainly want my engines to be capable of running smoothly - and with good tractive effort - at scale speeds. I suspect we all do.
When you have a vantage point high above a prototype main line railroad, in other words, comparable to where your eyes are from your model trains, it is interesting how agonizingly slow the 50 or 60 mph freight trains are. Even the Amtrak trains which you know are moving at 79 mph seem to be crawling.
For operating sessions I think scale speeds are important particularly since I am usually the poor yard master who struggles to keep up with "turns" that leave and return far too soon as it is, before I can fully make up the next train. The scale distances our trains travel are far too short already. As Tom points out above, all the fast clocks in the world cannot explain away why our model passengers are taking the train from point A to point B or why businesses would use the train to ship things from our point A to B. Why make that incongruity worse with fast speed?
I do see why at train shows many clubs run their trains fast - to hold the interest of the viewers who might be giving you just a few seconds of their time. And often those are large oval layouts where the trains are out of sight at the turn.
Dave Nelson
Yeah, and steam trains between NYC and CHI typically ran well over 100 mph.
No Train Stop on Steamy Trains...
Depends on your era.
It also depends on the size of your layout, given the tight curves and short tangent runs, anything over 50 might look a bit ... er ... fast.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
rrinkerHas anyone analyzed that? We've had all sorts of other factors analyzed based on the fact that physics doesn't scale, but what about relative allowed speeds based on track curvature, frog angle, and superelevation (or lack thereof)?
LION analyze subway trains of him. Him went to NYCT with stop watch. Train take 18 seconds to enter and stop at a station. Station is 600 feets long.
On Route of LION, train takes 2 - 3 seconds to enter a station. Station is 300 scale feets (four feet) long. Clearly something is amiss, and the LPP pax on cars of LION would certainly get tossed around much.
Top speed of NYCT today is between 30 and 35 mph; back in the day top speed was much faster. Top speed used to be around 50 mph! Trains of LION do about 50 mph, but as things get tamed (dont say that to a LION) may hap him will bring the speed down muchly.
Problem is in cheap Life-Like Walthers Chinese motors. Some could hardly pull the train on the flat, LION had to increase volts so the train could move, then it move faster than optimal. LION is now replacing all motors with NWSL equipment, and the hopes of him are that trains can be slowed nicely.
But it is the LOOK of the train as it moves across the landscape of the LION that is important to him. Too fast is not good, Prototypical 25-30 mph just looks too slow to the eye of the LION. LION would sure love to get the layout of him to run more slowly. We keep wroking on it.
dknelsonThe scale distances our trains travel are far too short already. As Tom points out above, all the fast clocks in the world cannot explain away why our model passengers are taking the train from point A to point B or why businesses would use the train to ship things from our point A to B. Why make that incongruity worse with fast speed?
Model stations are far too close together. But what must be, must be... is selective compression. For this reason each station on the Route of the Broadway LION are vignettes, trains arrive and depart in real time, but the trip to the next station regardless of speed is far too short. Still it takes 20 minutes for a train to circum navigate the layout from 242nd street to south ferry and back again.
The timetable for the LION is only for 242nd Street; the clock is Real Time. Trains depart 242nd Street about every four minutes, obviously the same train will return to 242nd Street 20 minutes later. But from the perspective of 242nd Street, it could have been a more prototypical 2 hour run. Trains are trains. The come in and they go out again, andmake room for the next train to come in.
Still, LION would like to achive slower. LION has one power supply, providing 0-16 volts dc of regulated power and up to 10 amps. Adjustments to the power supply affect ALL trains runjning on the layout. Even 10 trains running will not draw anywhere near 10 amps. Speeds entering and leving stations are modulated by resistors embedded into the tracks. System works: Is not best, but it works, and so it LOOKS like a subway layout with trains arriving, departing and running all over the place. It is impossible for viewers to keep track of any one train as they watch the layout operate.
I use the high speed to test my trackwork. I run at the slowest speed and the fastest before I declare the trackwork done. In running trains, I tend to run as slow as possible when I have the time but my slowest speed without control is over 30 min. for one loop of the layout and with control (speeding up a bit over centain turnouts as my powered frogs are not active) is over an hour.
rrebell I use the high speed to test my trackwork. I run at the slowest speed and the fastest before I declare the trackwork done. In running trains, I tend to run as slow as possible when I have the time but my slowest speed without control is over 30 min. for one loop of the layout and with control (speeding up a bit over centain turnouts as my powered frogs are not active) is over an hour.
Nicely Done! You must have a very nice layout!
BroadwayLionNo Train Stop on Steamy Trains...
I respectfully beg to differ.
New York Central, among many other railroads, began to adopt the GRS induction Automatic Train Stop system, in response to Congress passing the Transportation Act of 1920.
Several sections of the NYC main line were completed in the summer of 1926. The New York Central, by 1928, had 2,100 miles of ATS protected road. Third largest in the country behind Santa Fe and the Southern.
According to a January, 1931, I.C.C. report I have, there were 11,346.1 miles of road with 20,474.8 miles of track protected by Automatic Train Stop or other Automatic Control devices. As of that date there were 8,885 locomotives equipped and 342 motor cars.
Regards, Ed
It's a matter of what appeals to the viewer/operator, obviously. For me, I can't have a massive layout where I can walk along and follow my trains while they take maybe 10 minutes at passenger limited speeds to complete a loop. Mine is so much smaller that I find I have to use a folded loop.
I am acutely aware of what a train in scale should look like when it moves on a layout. I run mine at what many would say is a boringly slow speed. However, in scale, they are moving at prototypical speeds. This way, I get to enjoy a consist moving around my loop over perhaps a three minute period, longer if there are any loads out/empties in movements along the right-of-way.
Scale is important. Water and smoke just don't scale unless you fake them or suspend disbelief. For me, all I have done to create a reality, if in scale, is undone by water flowing at 1:1 scale speed or wispy smoke that lingers around my head, but still in wisps. I can deal with the weird sounds in HO, but that's about my limit. However, scale also applies to the train's movements near scale trees, poles, structures, and scale figures of humans and their implements and vehicles. Also, there is the matter of momentun and inertia, and I am so glad the engineers make CV's for those factors in the decoders. I set mine in the mid-high range in the range of numbers that apply to them so that my locomotives lift their trains realistically.
Finally, there is the matter of steep grades and sharp curves. Trains just would not scream along them in the real world. If I have them (and I do have sharp curves, just as we all do) I have to run my trains accordingly. Coal drags are not going to be doing 50 scale mph unless on a runaway, and that means down the grade, not up it.
That's how it works for me.
I run a shortline on a flat grade: Maximum 9 car trains. 30mph tops.
Maximum top end speed is irrelevant
Maximum pulling power is irrelevant
Only slow speed control and smoothness really matter
- Douglas
I tend to do things slow, as trains complete my 4x12 loop quite quickly. my track work isn't perfect either, so my 4-8-4 daylight doesn't like going fast.
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.
LION, Dave, and Crandell all touched on a related subject, the timetable if you have one, but that's closely tied to fast clock speed. The short distance between most model stations is one reason for the fast clock. It tends to slows thing down. But you still have an overall schedule that's needs to somewhat conform to anticipated train speed and is determine in part by layout size and main line length. I've tried everything from a 1:3 to 1:6 ratios on my fast clocks, still not quite happy, but the current timetable is fairly accurate at 1:6 so that's what I work with currently.
Observing TT arrival and departure times keeps things slow, but it's mostly narrowgauge so that makes sense anyway.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Most of my equipment is fairly old, manufactured when standards were different, often including open frame motors and open geaboxes with a high gear ratio and strictly DC control. Now I'm trying to upgrade with better motors, gearboxes, and control systems. I know from experience that a lot of the older motors performed pretty poorly and erratically at slower speeds. In the old days, we would "goose" an engine with a burst of juice to get it over a rough spot. Of course that meant an unprototypical burst of speed. Thankfully, more modern motors have largely overcome this and have made more realistic low-speed operation practical. Switching operations are much more accurate and believable if the engines have high-quality motors that can be operated smoothly at low speeds.
With my limited space, top end speed is irrelevant.
Smooth operation at a slower speed is.
However, I will offer this caveat: If a locomotive performs well at the top end of the spectrum, something gets sacrificed elsewhere. Smooth slow speed would sacrifice a bit on the top end speed range, while higher top end speed will sacrifice some on smooth slow speed.
Just like your car/truck, scale motors have a power band where they operate the most efficiently. Your car/truck can use differs gears, and shift from one to another, to stay in the proper power band. Model locomotives can not shift from one gear to another, so you must use one gear ratio to achieve the proper power band speed. This means simply one thing: Sacrafices on one end or the other.
Personally, I will sacrifice high top end speed for smooth slow operation within the power band anytime.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Ricktrains4824,
I agree with You 100%....having owned My own Semi tractors, drag race cars and even circle track cars....too many stories, to list here.
Take Care!
Frank
Ricky,
I DC, I agree with you. Keep in mind that you're speaking about the load on the motor, which may not be directly related to speed in some cases. I'll leave it to someone else to explain the physics of that.
With DCC, it's not so simple. You can artificially alter the response curve of the motor. I'm still learning on this, but speed tables allow you to produce a long, slowly rising curve to get the best range of control to cover slow speed operation, while still saving a few notches at the high end to cover instances when higher speeds are needed.
Also, some decoders offer the option of "Yard Mode" where everything regarding speed control is cut in half and giving a greater overall range of control.
This is a bit of an apples and oranges compasrison, but the way models react is often somewhat different than they would in real world numbers because mass doesn't scale the same way as linear measurements do.
Since we're talking about speed, DCC also offers a way to easily limit the top speed of your locos by setting the CV for maximum speed lower.
I want my locomotives to be able to creep. I don't really worry about whether the top speed is too high or too low. As others have noted above, with our too sharp curves and too short distances top speed is irrelevant. Most of us don't have the distance to properly get up to speed or to brake even in N scale. My top speed is whatever looks good to me.
Enjoy
Paul
Hi!
I expect my HO locos to go the speeds of the prototypes or at least close for my 1950s layouts. Back then, speeds of 100 mph were fairly common for the Santa Fe (E&F units) and Illinois Central (E units) in parts of Illinois. And of course various steamers (4-6-4, 4-6-2, 4-8-4) were more than capable of those speeds as well.
My collection of P2K, BLI, Stewart and Spectrum all seem to go at acceptible scale speeds, with the switchers and Consolidations being on the slower end, and the RSD, Es & Fs being on the faster end.
IMO, Richhotrains concern about the slow speed of two locos was very justified, and I'm glad he got it fixed - thanks to Randy as I recall.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I try to run prototypical speeds on my Industrial switching layout. It can be really boring waiting for an engine to crawl through the passing siding while running around cars on the main.
BroadwayLionNo Train Stop on Steamy Trains... Depends on your era.
1948 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2jbS0cpq8s
8:20seconds, you'll find steam with automatic stop. Also recommend watching the whole thing.
Edit: Had to finish watching. To answer the op's question, only somewhat. My layout isn't big enough for high speed operation.
Even the very first New York Central Hudson #5200 came out of the Alco Schenectady plant on February 14, 1927 with Automatic Train Stop apparatus installed.
By 1948 it was already pretty commonplace.
Ed
Hmmm, somehow I feel like I am being condemned on a thread that I did not start.
So, let me clarify my issue. I am not interested in running trains at breakneck speeds. What my concern was when I started my own thread was that my Intermountain F3 passenger locos were running at a top speed that was slower than the actual prototype's average speed. When I tested the scale speed, I was getting no more than 50 MPH, about half of what the actual prototype F3s ran on passenger operations.
I have a large layout and my mainlines include 42 foot straightaways. Running passenger trains at 50 MPH just doesn't cut it, particularly when my Athearn Genesis F3s are running at 80 MPH, a much more realistic top speed
Rich
Alton Junction