Ed,
What you haave shown is a fact but it is also a fact that Ike made it happen and his German experience influenced it's design.
Here is a quote from Wiki:
The Interstate Highway System gained a champion in President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was influenced by his experiences as a young Army officer crossing the country in the 1919 Army Convoy on the Lincoln Highway, the first road across America. Eisenhower gained an appreciation of the Reichsautobahn system, the first "national" implementation of modern Germany's Autobahn network, as a necessary component of a national defense system while he was serving as Supreme Commander of the Allied forces in Europe during World War II.[11] He recognized that the proposed system would also provide key ground transport routes for military supplies and troop deployments in case of an emergency or foreign invasion.
The publication in 1955 of the General Location of National System of Interstate Highways, informally known as the Yellow Book, mapped out what became the Interstate System.[12] Assisting in the planning was Charles Erwin Wilson, who was still head of General Motors when President Eisenhower selected him as Secretary of Defense in January 1953
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
csxns selector Dwight Eisenhower had what was then a super-highway network And he knew what that highway will do to the railroads.
selector Dwight Eisenhower had what was then a super-highway network
And he knew what that highway will do to the railroads.
The trucking industry interstates would indeed harm the railroads and in turn some railroads would receive bailout money from the Feds..
One of the best studies on the problem can be found in Trains Magazines of the 60s. John Kneiling's (The professional iconoclast) columns would be a good start.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Steam to diesel was mostly about efficiency. The same is true about train to truck. Drive any distance on the interstate system and you will encounter a number of trains of trucks. They pay a significant amount of the upkeep.
I had a friend, who was doing a study for DOT, tell me that the average freight car traveled at a speed around 2 mph. I think he was only counting cars in current revenue service. The average truck speed in the study was about 25 mph. Part of that difference is the lack of independence of the freight car compared to the truck. Currently you have a motor and person with every truck, so the cost savings is a bit cloudy
Yes, electric drive allowed significant savings in facilities, but those were mostly one time events. Competition with the real technology change requires much more will and innovation. The country as a whole was more into asphalt and airplanes. Other countries have been more progressive with their rail technologies.
I spent a lot of my work time considering the life cycle cost of various power systems. When oil is the source of energy, a cost of $130-150 a barrel is enough to have a significant change in the LCC of on option compared to another. That will happen long before we are "out" of oil. Those sensitivities were not normally part of the decision process when the steam to electric decisions were made.
Steam was also a tailored type product. Can you imagine getting GM to build you ten special cars. Of course you can't. The price would just be too high today. It was high then as well, but that was the accepted option, today it is not. Diesel electrics came along at the same time as the move towards few models to serve a wider range of requirements.
These factors created a window of opportunity for diesel electrics that has lasted for at least sixty years. With today's speed of innovation, it will be interesting to see if it has another fifty years before another transition occurs.
So many trains, so little time,
www.llxlocomotives.com
Sorry but running out of oil may not happen as oil is being produced all the time, I'm sure not as fast as we are using it, but we are getting more efficiant. I remember when houses used heatng oil on the east coast, one of the most common fuels in the big cities, now that number is getting smaller and smaller, helped myself on conversion burners from oil to gas in the late 70's, then there was a gas shortage which stopped that, but only for a short time.
7j43kWdlgln005 During the war only EMD was allowed to produce passenger units, the E6. Only EMD was allowed to produce freight units, the FT. Alco built switchers & the RS1. EMD used the time & experience to build a much better product in the E7 & F3. In the E8 & F7 EMD made another step forward. Hmmm. Alco could make road switchers and EMD couldn't. Does the word "ironic" apply here? Ed
During the war only EMD was allowed to produce passenger units, the E6. Only EMD was allowed to produce freight units, the FT. Alco built switchers & the RS1. EMD used the time & experience to build a much better product in the E7 & F3. In the E8 & F7 EMD made another step forward.
Hmmm. Alco could make road switchers and EMD couldn't. Does the word "ironic" apply here?
Ed
Irony maybe, but EMD got the last laugh. From the wiki: "Alco products had neither the market position or reputation for reliability of GM-EMD's products, nor the financing muscle and customer support of GE. It could not earn enough profits. In the late 1960s Alco gradually ceased locomotive production, shipping its last two locomotives, a pair of T-6 switchers to the Newburgh and South Shore Railroad (#1016 and #1017) in January 1969.[7] Alco closed its Schenectady locomotive plant later that year, and sold its designs to the Montreal Locomotive Works in Canada."
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Tax and accounting rules helped with the demise of steam on the railroads.
Locomotives were to be depreciated over 40 years as that was the useful life of a steam locomotive.
Diesels were shown not be as long lived as a steam locomotive with an estimated useful life of 15 years. President Truman had the IRS change the rules in the late 40's so they could be depreciated over 15 years versus the old rate of 40 years which hastened the production of diesels and although some lasted more than the 15 years like the GP7/9, GP38, SD40 with rebuilding many were scrapped after 15 years like all the Baldwins, Alcos, Fairbanks Morse, and early GE's.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
riogrande5761 7j43k Wdlgln005 During the war only EMD was allowed to produce passenger units, the E6. Only EMD was allowed to produce freight units, the FT. Alco built switchers & the RS1. EMD used the time & experience to build a much better product in the E7 & F3. In the E8 & F7 EMD made another step forward. Hmmm. Alco could make road switchers and EMD couldn't. Does the word "ironic" apply here? Ed Irony maybe, but EMD got the last laugh. From the wiki: "Alco products had neither the market position or reputation for reliability of GM-EMD's products, nor the financing muscle and customer support of GE."
7j43k Wdlgln005 During the war only EMD was allowed to produce passenger units, the E6. Only EMD was allowed to produce freight units, the FT. Alco built switchers & the RS1. EMD used the time & experience to build a much better product in the E7 & F3. In the E8 & F7 EMD made another step forward. Hmmm. Alco could make road switchers and EMD couldn't. Does the word "ironic" apply here? Ed
Irony maybe, but EMD got the last laugh. From the wiki: "Alco products had neither the market position or reputation for reliability of GM-EMD's products, nor the financing muscle and customer support of GE."
Ah, but I was wondering about the "opportunity" (see Herb Tarlek) during the war. Imagine if someone at Alco realized that railroads would be wanting something like a GP9 pretty quickly. AND that EMD couldn't make them during the war. And they could (RS-1.........). What a great "opportunity" to position the company for that event.
Or so it seems.
So their job would have been to make the RS-1 super reliable and able to MU. And to get right to work on an RS-2..........
Ed,The RS-1 was one of the best made ALCOs for several reasons and it could do a yeoman's job from main line to branch line and could be used as a switcher in freight and passenger terminals. GM had nothing that could compete. ALCO even had their RS-2 out before GM's GP7. The BL-2 was a failure since GM's sales department did not like it,the mechanical department did not like and most of all the railroads did not like it.
So,ALCO 2 GM 0 in the road switcher market.
7j43k Ah, but I was wondering about the "opportunity" (see Herb Tarlek) during the war. Imagine if someone at Alco realized that railroads would be wanting something like a GP9 pretty quickly. AND that EMD couldn't make them during the war. And they could (RS-1.........). What a great "opportunity" to position the company for that event. Or so it seems. So their job would have been to make the RS-1 super reliable and able to MU. And to get right to work on an RS-2.......... Ed
Ok got a migraine today so not firing on all cylinders but how would the competition between Alco and EMD affect the demise of steam. It seems like the war board was dictating things there?
dti406 Tax and accounting rules helped with the demise of steam on the railroads. Locomotives were to be depreciated over 40 years as that was the useful life of a steam locomotive. Diesels were shown not be as long lived as a steam locomotive with an estimated useful life of 15 years. President Truman had the IRS change the rules in the late 40's so they could be depreciated over 15 years versus the old rate of 40 years which hastened the production of diesels and although some lasted more than the 15 years like the GP7/9, GP38, SD40 with rebuilding many were scrapped after 15 years like all the Baldwins, Alcos, Fairbanks Morse, and early GE's. Rick Jesionowski
My Rio Grande Diesels Vol 1 & 2 indicated the D&RGW got an average of 20 years out of their diesels including early ones like the FT and F7. The GP30/40 series lasted more like 25 to 30 years.
Also, from what I've read, steam engines were maintenence intensive. I wonder if those long lives included major rebuilding or replacement of major parts, much like many EMD products have had extremely long lives through rebuild programs. All that is part of the generalization too.
The War Production Board certainly gave a boost to EMD's mainline passenger and freight prime movers, and to Alco's switchers because they limited those builders' production of other designs. This was probably because of prioritization on the part of the W.P.B., and not due to a conscious decision to favor one builder over another. EMD switchers used the same prime movers as their passenger units (two per E unit), so this didn't really hamper EMD's switcher development. It certainly did slow development of Alco's larger prime movers. As of wartime, Fairbanks Morse hadn't entered the locomotive business. Their production was virtually all for nonrailroad military purposes, but the war gave them a good opportunity to develop their 1500 hp and 2000 hp O-P engine, so that they were prepared to begin locomotive design as soon as the war was over. During the war, Fairbanks Morse O-P prime movers went into all of the Navy Fleet subs that weren't fitted with EMD's. I don't know whether Alco prime movers were considered.
At the end of the war, all the builders scrambled to fill orders that were flooding in. AC&Y was well satisfied with the Alco switchers they had bought in the early 1940's. They intended to dieselize as quickly as possible, and wanted to place orders with Alco for road engines. Alco was swamped with orders from other roads, so AC&Y talked to F-M, who was anxious to make sales of its new line of locomotives. So AC&Y became known for its F-M road switcher fleet "through the back door", simply because Alco couldn't supply them.
Tom
ACYAlco was swamped with orders from other roads,
Tom, GM's GP7 was the start of ALCOs market domination downward spiral and when GE pulled out of the partnership with ALCO the die was cast for ALCO's locomotive poor reliability and maintenance issues.This ALCO would never recover from as GM started dominating the market.
FM opposed piston prime mover was better suited for ships then locomotives.
ggnlars wrote "I have been told that one ot the reasons the N&W was the last to switch had to do with their customers being coal suppliers."
I have read that also. One other factor was a change in upper management ( forget their names ?) The head guy ( name ? ) made a statement as long as he was in charge N&W would run steam. When that poisition changed thE new guy started changing as fast as orders could be filled.
YGW
yougottawantaWhen that poisition changed thE new guy started changing as fast as orders could be filled.
That new guy was Stuart Saunders.
rrebell The lack of diesel engines was not a cause. Railroads were considered a #1 priority for the war effort.
The lack of diesel engines was not a cause. Railroads were considered a #1 priority for the war effort.
The RR was #1 priorty during the war. The DM&IR was one of the prime ones. Steel to build the massive Yellowstone engines was ranked number one over steel for tanks, ships and more. My father was deferred from military service because he was a road engineer for the DM&IR. A lot of women took over many jobs like steaming ore or doing servicing of the engines. Ore trains ran as soon and as fast as they could. No "off on miles" just haul that ore.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Number one priority ahead of guns, ammo, ships, planes, tanks, personnel, et. al.?
No. There was no "number one priority". The War Production Board had to make some very important decisions as to what had to take precedence in each particular instance. They made mistakes, but they mostly did all right. That's one reason the Allies won.
Much like N&W, Missabe loved their steam locomotives, especially the almost new, very well designed Yellowstones. In the mid 50's with the sources of various parts disappearing they bought enough parts stock to keep the Yellowstones running until at least 1970. In 1957 the first SD-9's were delivered. By 1960 or so, all those parts were scrapped.
At one time Missabe employed over 5000 people. The war between diesel and steam wasn't won by diesel on the road, it was won in the shops.
dinwittyThe secondary purpose of the Highway system in the event of a war emergency is they can land aircraft on it and or take off from it.
Remember that the interstate highways were started in thec 50's, the system didn't begin to approach completion until the late 60's, well after steam locomotives were gone.
ACY Number one priority ahead of guns, ammo, ships, planes, tanks, personnel, et. al.? No. There was no "number one priority". The War Production Board had to make some very important decisions as to what had to take precedence in each particular instance. They made mistakes, but they mostly did all right. That's one reason the Allies won. Tom
Imagine if he had not been successful. There would probably be a door matt with his face on it for Roanoke citzens to wipe their feet on.
yougottawantaImagine if he had not been successful. There would probably be a door matt with his face on it for Roanoke citzens to wipe their feet on.
He wasn't popular there at all.. Thousands of men lost their jobs as soon as the steam erecting and heavy repair shops closed.
rrebellWithout the railroads the ships and tanks etc. could not be built or delivered.
Russell
rrebell ACY Number one priority ahead of guns, ammo, ships, planes, tanks, personnel, et. al.? No. There was no "number one priority". The War Production Board had to make some very important decisions as to what had to take precedence in each particular instance. They made mistakes, but they mostly did all right. That's one reason the Allies won. Tom Yep, read your history books but remember, railroads were used to run tanks etc. to the coasts. Now not all railroading had priority but troop transports and other millitary cargo did. Without the railroads the ships and tanks etc. could not be built or delivered.
Yep, read your history books but remember, railroads were used to run tanks etc. to the coasts. Now not all railroading had priority but troop transports and other millitary cargo did. Without the railroads the ships and tanks etc. could not be built or delivered.
That's true, but they were delivered by trains pulled by steam engines, not diesels.
Remember what the Missabe hauled, a signifigant part of the iron ore needed to build all the ships, tanks, trucks, and the factories and tools needed to build them. You bet they had a high priority.
wjstix rrebell The lack of diesel engines was not a cause. Railroads were considered a #1 priority for the war effort. No, actually the military was the No. 1 priority. Diesel engines for Navy submarines was more important than for locomotives, just as steel for tanks and armored cars was more important that steel for freight cars - which is why many WW2 era boxcars were built with wood sides instead of steel, which had been the standard for new cars for some time.
I believe that is just an old wives tale. The only places that you could land a plane safely is a long way from where you would need troops and supplies.
Ike used the German highways to move troops and supplies. The interstate system was designed so that it could be blocked of ( limited access ) and the military could have the entire highway and all lanes to move troops and supplies.
South Penn
I remember a neighbor that worked on the railroad trying to explain to my Dad why the diesels needed firemen on them. ( he was a fireman ) I think the reason was called 'feather-bedding'.
I think one of the biggest losers in the switch to diesels was Baldwin. ( and the people who lost their jobs ) Hydraulic drives?? Pneumatic controls?? The management group there really blew it.
SouthPennI remember a neighbor that worked on the railroad trying to explain to my Dad why the diesels needed firemen on them. ( he was a fireman ) I think the reason was called 'feather-bedding'.
Not really the fireman had a job to do..He would walk between locomotives and check gauges in the cab and engine compartment of the trailing engines and he would relay hand signals as needed. The engineer would call signal indications and the fireman would repeat them.
Featherbedding would get you street time or a termination of service letter..The real meaning of "featherbedding" was sleeping on the job.