From their tale of woe it was because of the poor grade of coal PRR bought and PRR's maintenance policy of "Ok.. The problem is noted and deferred to the next major shopping for repair.. In the mean time keep it in service. This policy carried into the diesel era right up to Conrail.
lARY WROTE "I heard stories from my Grandfather,my dad and a uncle about PRR's lack of maintence..I just thought it was normal every day employee bellyaching.. Wrong! I found out in July, 1966 the mighty PRR was not the "Standard railroad of the world". The first N6B cabin I climb onto as a fresh student brakeman had small holes in the floor by the doors and cracks in the side window glass."
Larry - I have never understood that attitude. When stuff breaks down it cost twice as much not to mention how it affects the end user - the customer whos stuff gets delayed - very frustrating - I hear "stories" all the time. In the end I know it is because something broke down, not enough employees etc...They end up loosing the contract because of their inability to maintain the contract. Plus everyone has a bad attitude because they are forced to work in unsafe conditions or cruddy equipment - it is self defeating - maybe thats why they had so much money problems.
yougottawanta Larry wrote "Several firemen hated the J1 because they would work you to death even though they had a mechanical stroker." Larry why would a mechanical stoker work someone to death ? Seems to me they would only have to stand by and watch it load ? YGW
Larry wrote "Several firemen hated the J1 because they would work you to death even though they had a mechanical stroker."
Larry why would a mechanical stoker work someone to death ? Seems to me they would only have to stand by and watch it load ?
YGW
A Mechanical stoker was just that: Mechanical. It was absolutely not automatic. They were not terrible when they were working, but they often broke down. They were noisy and temperamental. You had to adjust the jets to get the coal where you wanted it. Not fun, and not a cushy job. Without a mechanical stoker, large, modern coal-fired steam locos would have required two or more human firemen. The railroads wanted to pay only one man to tend that fire; their goal was not to give the fireman an easy job.
Tom
That steam survived as long as it did was a result of circumstance (war) and not of the arrival of a superior technology, and we can point to the tremendous engineering efforts which went into making steam as efficient as possible, given the lead weights of water, coal and oil supplies which burdened steam technology with their particular demands. But-just like floppy disks giving way to DVDs and then DVDs giving way to flash memory sticks/data cards, steam had its run and then some.
What will be the next phase of change- those new alternate-fuel engines now being placed in service?
Cedarwoodron
yougottawantaLarry why would a mechanical stoker work someone to death ? Seems to me they would only have to stand by and watch it load ? YGW
I heard stories from my Grandfather,my dad and a uncle about PRR's lack of maintence..I just thought it was normal every day employee bellyaching.. Wrong! I found out in July, 1966 the mighty PRR was not the "Standard railroad of the world". The first N6B cabin I climb onto as a fresh student brakeman had small holes in the floor by the doors and cracks in the side window glass.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Shortly after graduating from West Point, Eisenhower went on an Army sponsored expedition to drive across the US in military vehicles. He was apparently appalled at the poor roads and difficult driving conditions, and this has been cited as being the 'real' reason behind his desire to set up the Interstate system, rather than the influence of the German Autobahn. Could be a combination of both.
BTW the Autobahn existed before Hitler took office, going back to the early 20's I believe. Here in Minnesota, Highway 100 in was originally built as part of a Twin Cities 'beltway' idea inspired by the Autobahn. (I think the chief designer, Carl Graeser, was either German by birth or had studied in Germany and was familiar with the Autobahn?) Hwy 100 began construction in 1934.
SouthPenn dinwitty The secondary purpose of the Highway system in the event of a war emergency is they can land aircraft on it and or take off from it. I believe that is just an old wives tale. The only places that you could land a plane safely is a long way from where you would need troops and supplies. Ike used the German highways to move troops and supplies. The interstate system was designed so that it could be blocked of ( limited access ) and the military could have the entire highway and all lanes to move troops and supplies. South Penn
dinwitty The secondary purpose of the Highway system in the event of a war emergency is they can land aircraft on it and or take off from it.
I believe that is just an old wives tale. The only places that you could land a plane safely is a long way from where you would need troops and supplies.
Ike used the German highways to move troops and supplies. The interstate system was designed so that it could be blocked of ( limited access ) and the military could have the entire highway and all lanes to move troops and supplies.
South Penn
I could imagine trying to land a B-52 on an interstate, but I'd rather not...
Actually, in Sweden there were (and may still be) stretches of road built out to fighter aircraft runway specifications. Each usually had covered aircraft parking at each end. It's not a matter of where you want troops and supplies. It's a matter of providing dispersed and relatively unobtrusive roosts for warbirds engaged in defending the nation.
As for wartime priorities, it all depended on which bearing was squeaking the loudest. Once a problem was under control, the equipment needed to fight that problem would slide down the priority ladder to make room at the top for something else. The US Navy stopped building battleships already under construction to concentrate on carriers. Later, as more land fronts opened up, tank production accelerated.
Thr railroads got what the WPB could spare them, not necessarily everything they needed and certainly not everything they wanted.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
SouthPenn It must have been hell if you were a fireman or engineer assigned to a 'B' unit. South Penn
It must have been hell if you were a fireman or engineer assigned to a 'B' unit.
In the early years of diesels a B unit was draw barred to a A unit and a A-B-A would carry numbers like 16A,16B and 16C as one locomotive.
After some fancy rewording and several agreements one crew could operate a x amount of locomotives in a consist. Any powered locomotives above that X number the engineer received extra pay for operating those locomotives so,the railroads went to using DIT-Dead In Tow- so they didn't have to pay the engineer extra.
My dad was a steam engineer on the NYC from the 30's to the 60's and he told me that no engineer he knew could not wait for the end of steam. They were hot, dirty, a PIA some days.
Just think he ran some of the best steam engines to ever run and even he could not stand them.
When the diesels came on line he said it was the best time he had working for the railroad.
My dad also blamed the unions for the featherbedding causing allot of problems with crews who just rode along doing nothing. It also led to many railroads going bankrupt. All the unions had to do was agree to more reasonable contracts when the end of steam came.
As a modeler I love steam but not all engineers did including my dad.
yougottawantaLarry I know you worked for the RR for a long time. Not sure what years. Do you remember hearing any talk from the men in the industry about the switch and what they thought ? Thanks YGW
Depends on who you talk to..When I worked on the PRR there was still lot of former steam engineers and fireman working and some was glad to see the steam locomotives gone from the rails for various reasons while others would talk about their love for the H9,H10 or L1. Several firemen hated the J1 because they would work you to death even though they had a mechanical stroker.
On the Chessie (C&O) there was few steam engineers left but,they seem to love C&O's G9 2-8-0 as much as they loved the GP7/9.
I think the biggest featherbedding issue was a problem that came with the new diesels. Railroads were operating under steam-era contract that required one engineer and one fireman "per engine". The unions said that meant each diesel unit in a consist required a two man crew, so a consist of three GP-7s m.u.'ed together by contract had to have three engineers and three firemen.
That's one reason the railroads were slow to adapt to the "building block" concept of separate diesels in a consist. Instead, they tended to use semi-permanent consists, like 3-4 unit F-unit sets numbered and treated as if it were one "engine". (That's why early F units might be numbered "2292A", "2292B"< "2292C" etc.)
Eventually, new work rules were agreed on so each train had one engineer and fireman unless more were required (like two engines that couldn't m.u. together, or helper engines etc.)
ACYand many firemen are fully qualified to take over if the engineer should become incapacitated.
Those firemen was called a "fixture fireman" because they was a qualified engineer but,remained a fireman because of their seniority and pay grade.
Two issues (and we're admittedly drifting off topic here):
Featherbedding. Yes, it means sleeping on the job or, in this case, having a job that doesn't require any work. Since a diesel has no fire to be tended, lots of folks claimed that firemen weren't needed on diesels, and they called that featherbedding. In actual fact, the fireman is truly an assistant to the engineer. He observes and verbally confirms every signal, and is available to monitor the units and even make running repairs. The job of fireman is a sort of training ground for aspiring engineers, and many firemen are fully qualified to take over if the engineer should become incapacitated. Modern diesels are subject to road failures; early diesels were worse. There were many times when a fireman returned home from a run entirely covered in oil because he had spent most of his trip in the third unit, trying to get it to run.
Yes, the military got first priority during the war. In December of 1947 I was almost 2 years old when I tripped and got food lodged in my throat (clumsy hyperactive kid!). I was rushed to the hospital and had an emergency tracheotomy. Then I developed pneumonia. Penicillin saved my life. The doctor told my parents that he couldn't have saved me if this had happened during the war because ALL of the penicillin was going overseas. That's just the way things were back then.
Larry yougottawanta Imagine if he had not been successful. There would probably be a door matt with his face on it for Roanoke citzens to wipe their feet on.
bing&kathy rrebell The lack of diesel engines was not a cause. Railroads were considered a #1 priority for the war effort. The RR was #1 priorty during the war. The DM&IR was one of the prime ones. Steel to build the massive Yellowstone engines was ranked number one over steel for tanks, ships and more. My father was deferred from military service because he was a road engineer for the DM&IR. A lot of women took over many jobs like steaming ore or doing servicing of the engines. Ore trains ran as soon and as fast as they could. No "off on miles" just haul that ore.
rrebell The lack of diesel engines was not a cause. Railroads were considered a #1 priority for the war effort.
The lack of diesel engines was not a cause. Railroads were considered a #1 priority for the war effort.
The RR was #1 priorty during the war. The DM&IR was one of the prime ones. Steel to build the massive Yellowstone engines was ranked number one over steel for tanks, ships and more. My father was deferred from military service because he was a road engineer for the DM&IR. A lot of women took over many jobs like steaming ore or doing servicing of the engines. Ore trains ran as soon and as fast as they could. No "off on miles" just haul that ore.
SouthPennI remember a neighbor that worked on the railroad trying to explain to my Dad why the diesels needed firemen on them. ( he was a fireman ) I think the reason was called 'feather-bedding'.
Not really the fireman had a job to do..He would walk between locomotives and check gauges in the cab and engine compartment of the trailing engines and he would relay hand signals as needed. The engineer would call signal indications and the fireman would repeat them.
Featherbedding would get you street time or a termination of service letter..The real meaning of "featherbedding" was sleeping on the job.
I remember a neighbor that worked on the railroad trying to explain to my Dad why the diesels needed firemen on them. ( he was a fireman ) I think the reason was called 'feather-bedding'.
I think one of the biggest losers in the switch to diesels was Baldwin. ( and the people who lost their jobs ) Hydraulic drives?? Pneumatic controls?? The management group there really blew it.
dinwittyThe secondary purpose of the Highway system in the event of a war emergency is they can land aircraft on it and or take off from it.
wjstix rrebell The lack of diesel engines was not a cause. Railroads were considered a #1 priority for the war effort. No, actually the military was the No. 1 priority. Diesel engines for Navy submarines was more important than for locomotives, just as steel for tanks and armored cars was more important that steel for freight cars - which is why many WW2 era boxcars were built with wood sides instead of steel, which had been the standard for new cars for some time.
Remember what the Missabe hauled, a signifigant part of the iron ore needed to build all the ships, tanks, trucks, and the factories and tools needed to build them. You bet they had a high priority.
rrebell ACY Number one priority ahead of guns, ammo, ships, planes, tanks, personnel, et. al.? No. There was no "number one priority". The War Production Board had to make some very important decisions as to what had to take precedence in each particular instance. They made mistakes, but they mostly did all right. That's one reason the Allies won. Tom Yep, read your history books but remember, railroads were used to run tanks etc. to the coasts. Now not all railroading had priority but troop transports and other millitary cargo did. Without the railroads the ships and tanks etc. could not be built or delivered.
ACY Number one priority ahead of guns, ammo, ships, planes, tanks, personnel, et. al.? No. There was no "number one priority". The War Production Board had to make some very important decisions as to what had to take precedence in each particular instance. They made mistakes, but they mostly did all right. That's one reason the Allies won. Tom
Number one priority ahead of guns, ammo, ships, planes, tanks, personnel, et. al.?
No. There was no "number one priority". The War Production Board had to make some very important decisions as to what had to take precedence in each particular instance. They made mistakes, but they mostly did all right. That's one reason the Allies won.
Yep, read your history books but remember, railroads were used to run tanks etc. to the coasts. Now not all railroading had priority but troop transports and other millitary cargo did. Without the railroads the ships and tanks etc. could not be built or delivered.
That's true, but they were delivered by trains pulled by steam engines, not diesels.
rrebellWithout the railroads the ships and tanks etc. could not be built or delivered.
Russell
yougottawantaImagine if he had not been successful. There would probably be a door matt with his face on it for Roanoke citzens to wipe their feet on.
He wasn't popular there at all.. Thousands of men lost their jobs as soon as the steam erecting and heavy repair shops closed.
That new guy was Stuart Saunders.
Imagine if he had not been successful. There would probably be a door matt with his face on it for Roanoke citzens to wipe their feet on.
Remember that the interstate highways were started in thec 50's, the system didn't begin to approach completion until the late 60's, well after steam locomotives were gone.
Much like N&W, Missabe loved their steam locomotives, especially the almost new, very well designed Yellowstones. In the mid 50's with the sources of various parts disappearing they bought enough parts stock to keep the Yellowstones running until at least 1970. In 1957 the first SD-9's were delivered. By 1960 or so, all those parts were scrapped.
At one time Missabe employed over 5000 people. The war between diesel and steam wasn't won by diesel on the road, it was won in the shops.