Are there any modelers out there who would like to see a line of cast metal car kits introduced to the market by a commercial manufacturer? If so, what scales and cars would you be interested in?
Cars?
Do you mean rolling stock or vehicles?
Cast metal tends to be heavy, and putting all that weight high up would make rolling stock difficult to pull uphill and also top-heavy. Keeping weight down to the NMRA recommended level would be difficult.
While I would love to see more kits available for almost anything, I think their declining availabilty is indicative of the market, unfortunately.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
True, rolling stock cast would be heavier. But it also tracks better. Rolling stock was what I meant, and what prototype equipment, and the scale to see them in, were what I meant.
Cast metal car kits? You mean like the Model Power Metal Train line of products? Thanks, but no thanks. The only cars in that line that were worth buying were the flats because they were actually the NMRA recommended weight (I have two). All the other cars in that line were far too heavy.
If one needs to have extra heavy cars to keep the cars on the track, then perhaps one should fix the track...? Just sayin'...
Paul A. Cutler III
Does anyone remember the old Varney lines, and the like? Back when cars had a wood floor, and cast metal bodies? Back when you supplied the trucks? And remember the old paper sided cars with die cast frames? Nothing I'd personal be interested in building. However, I know that most rtr cars leave a bit to be desired weight wise (at least here), and that kits are almost impossible to find. That was why I was checking the interest levels. Although what about if the kits had diecast frames and plastics sides and/or roofs?
At Boothbay Railway Village our rolling stock collection includes a number of 50s vintage cast metal kits. Some are in running condition; and, after upgrading worn out trucks and couplers, are running regularly on the layout. Manufacturers include Roundhouse, Varney, and maybe some others.
Given the level of detail in current plastic kits, a new manufaturer of metal kits may have problems getting buyers to accept this "new" metal material.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Ancient and expensive manufactering process not likely to return.
Jim
Jack Derby However, I know that most rtr cars leave a bit to be desired weight wise (at least here),
However, I know that most rtr cars leave a bit to be desired weight wise (at least here),
Many of us who have grades on the layout don't want heavy cars as they significantly reduce pulling power.
Jack Derby and that kits are almost impossible to find. That was why I was checking the interest levels.
and that kits are almost impossible to find. That was why I was checking the interest levels.
IMHO - Kits are far from "impossible to find". True that they are becoming a rarity as new stock in train shops but the market is flooded with older kits on Ebay and other secondary markets...Many of us have piles of kits to build and they are being recycled out to market place on a regular basis.
In addition companies like Westerfield and Sunshine (to name just two) are still producing beautiful kits.
On car weight - There is a small but growing contingent of modelers (Mike Confalone) who are super weighting their cars for realistic operation. I dare say that the grades involved are more gentle and it certainly wouldn't work on my RR but there are modelers that swear by the practice of adding lots of weight to cars.
Your mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Jack,
Having grown up with those old metal and composite kits and seeing them replaced with all the newer injection molded plastic cars I fully understand why they are no longer around except on feebay and at shows, etc. They were crude compared to something like a Red Caboose, InterMountain or Atlas/Branchline kit. They were heavy comparatively. They either had no trucks or they were so inferior to those we have today on plastic kits. I can see no need to return to the past as a manufacturer or modeler unless, perhaps, if you just want to relive a favorite car kit from your early days but I'd think one would seek it on feebay, etc.
After all, even MDC/Roundhouse, Athearn, Varney and others changed from these kits to plastic. Maybe that should be a big clue?
Not trying to be nasty, but from my many years of experience working in various hobby shops throughout the country I doubt a lot of newer modelers would be attracted to those type of kits nor could they be able to build one anyway. I have had numerous modelers in the shops incapable of installing KDs on simple cars like Athearn and Stewart/Bowser and many have issues trying to assemble Stewart/Bowser or InterMountain and other detailed plastic kits.
I don't think a new version of metal kits is worth pursuing.
My 2¢,
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
So, no interest whatsoever for rolling stock kits of any type?
Jack DerbyDoes anyone remember the old Varney lines, and the like? Back when cars had a wood floor, and cast metal bodies? Back when you supplied the trucks? And remember the old paper sided cars with die cast frames?
And thus the need for RP20.1..The cars was to light and roll like a brick.
Terrible days of the hobby.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I think intermodal cars would be nice. My Walthers spine cars are metal and perform far better than my Athearn spine cars. Double stack cars would benefit from being metal also. These type cars are always light if made from plastic and always require extra weight to be hidden in the trailers or containers. With a metal car, the weight is the car.
Jack DerbyDoes anyone remember the old Varney lines, and the like? Back when cars had a wood floor, and cast metal bodies? Back when you supplied the trucks? And remember the old paper sided cars with die cast frames?...
Yeah I remember them, although my old metal Varney kits had sheet metal bodies and metal diecast underbodies. Here's one of them with upgraded details:
At the same time, Varney was already switching to plastic, like this tank car:
Model Die Casting had some cars which were all cast metal, like this low-sided gondola:
...but they also moved to plastic, although some models kept the cast metal floors.
Authenticast offered this depressed centre flatcar in cast metal, a good use of the material, but they're long-gone:
Ulrich made some nice (for their time) cast metal hoppers and also this well-done GS drop-bottom gondola, along with a good-looking line of cast metal highway trucks. All of these command good prices at train shows, but the market isn't, for the most part, younger modellers.
Kits are still available (Accurail, Tichy, Atlas, Bowser, Red Caboose and, of course, craftsman-style kits like Westerfield, F&C, etc.) However, some newer manufacturers also offer limited amounts of their r-t-r stuff as kits.This Rapido meat reefer came to me as an undecorated kit:
...as did this not-yet-finished Tangent 6,000 gal. tank car:
I can't see a lot of interest in cast metal rolling stock nowadays. If a modeller wants heavier rolling stock, it's usually easy enough to add weight.
Wayne
I'm not as quick to dismiss your idea as some others, but I think the idea has to be modified a bit. I have built craftsman kits from some of the long-gone kit manufacturers, and have seen some with very nice cast metal components. Some particular examples were the Quality Craft (distributed by Pro Custom) B&O I-1 caboose and the Quality Craft/Gloor Craft PRR Nd 4-wheel cabin car. I replaced a lot (most?) of the wood parts with styrene, but used most of the supplied metal parts. I kept the Nd pedestals and brake shoes, and I used the cupola components, steps, and other components on all the kits. The resulting cars were not overweight by any means. In fact, I probably should have added extra weight to them. With good wheels added to the Nd, and good trucks added to the I-1's, they track well and look very good. I've done the same with NYC and Erie caboose kits from the same manufacturer, but unfortunately no longer have those cars.
It's true that a freight car built entirely of cast metal (like the old Ulrichs, early MDC's, and others) would be pretty heavy, even if supplied with the superior trucks available today. But cast metal might have a valid use in a kit that uses other materials for some parts. Cast metal can carry a good level of detail and can provide a bit of weight where it's needed.
Likely candidates would be one-of-a-kind or unusual cars that would not be used in large numbers (i.e., no unit train cars). I also like a nice, heavy caboose to keep the slack stretched, so that would be another possibility.
Tom
Jack Derby So, no interest whatsoever for rolling stock kits of any type?
I can see how my last post might be interpreted that way..I have built hundreds of kits and have lots more on the list (seven file boxes full). I enjoy building them quite a bit. I think that there are large numbers of us out there that build rolling stock kits.
As for new kits, I'm not sure what the market is saying about demand. My thinking is that there are quite a few unbuilt kits out there that may be soaking up or even outpacing the demand. That said, I still buy kits (and sell ones that I won't build).
I model early - mid-20th century Class one/shortline steam. There are lots of kits to choose from in that time frame. I haven't checked but I am sure that there are kit makers keeping up with the more modern cars of the last 40 years.
If one were to produce new kits, I would look to make models of cars that haven't been offered before as kits. A niche to be sure...
I have modified the idea a bit, for not flat-like cars, to use plastic parts since I can use similar molds, but the spine ones are not a bad idea. What scales, peeps?
HO is the most popular, but has the greatest range of items already available. Every year it seems there are fewer HO scalers who want to build craftsman kits.
O, S, N, and Z can always use items that are not otherwise available. I'm not sure, but there may be more kit builders in the O and S groups than in the N or Z scale groups, but there may be more N scale modelers than O, S, and/or Z scale modelers.
Everything I said above is opinion. I could be misreading the whole situation.
Lone Wolf and Santa Fe I think intermodal cars would be nice. My Walthers spine cars are metal and perform far better than my Athearn spine cars. Double stack cars would benefit from being metal also. These type cars are always light if made from plastic and always require extra weight to be hidden in the trailers or containers. With a metal car, the weight is the car.
Yeah, and it would also let you run them empty. I'm always amazed at how many empty well cars there actually are in a train around here.
Shanny10
B&O, C&O, PRR
Just lovin trains
Well then, I suspect I have an idea as to where to start. Were there ever plans in a publication for the spine cars?
Jack Derby,
Kato made and I believe they still do, metal spine cars for N-scale along with tub cars. Also here is a link to a site that shows all N-scale Intermodal cars, Mfg'ers, kits, plastic and metal, if You are interested:
http://www.nscaleintermodal.com/railcars.html
Take Care!
Frank
Jack,Looking at today's RTR market I don't think kits is very high on the best sellers list due to the lmited amount of detail versus the RTR cars and a highly detailed kit with the finer to scale details wouldn't be that much less then its RTR counter part.The finer details could be easily broken as well during assembly of the kit.
Generally, tooling for die cast metal cars is more expensive and requires more maintainence than tooling for the plastic injection process. It would not be cost effective to build tooling for a "limited run" model. Since most manufacturers have gone overseas for plastic injection molds, paying pennies on the dollar vs US made tooling, it will be hard to find craftsman left to build the more exacting die cast metal tooling for low prices paid for plastic tooling. I have been in the tool and die business since 1967.
People can say what they believe about kits and RTR...but the way I read Modeling in todays era, especially Trains, people do not want to take the time, nor do some have the want and or skills to build kits anymore....they want to run it Now, so they are willing to pay to have it done and that's what the Mfg'ers market.....RTR. They don't make any money, with a warehouse full of hobby products. The warehouse is on wheels or container ships which is already paid for, by pre-oders...sell em', go on to the next batch. They make what sell's fast and get a quick return on their investment.
Been in Transportation for 45yrs. and saw this coming, like many have....warehousing is a thing of the past...like boxcars will be.
zstripe People can say what they believe about kits and RTR...but the way I read Modeling in todays era, especially Trains, people do not want to take the time, nor do some have the want and or skills to build kits anymore....they want to run it Now, so they are willing to pay to have it done and that's what the Mfg'ers market.....RTR. They don't make any money, with a warehouse full of hobby products. The warehouse is on wheels or container ships which is already paid for, by pre-oders...sell em', go on to the next batch. They make what sell's fast and get a quick return on their investment. Been in Transportation for 45yrs. and saw this coming, like many have....warehousing is a thing of the past...like boxcars will be. Take Care! Frank
A few do of course, but manufacturers have discovered the market for kits is very limited and the demaind is for good quality RTR. This is just the reality of it for the past 15 years and I don't see it changing. I would expect especially for all metal kits, same thing - it's going to be a low demand for it - maybe a cottage industry could sell to meet a minimal demand.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I love rolling stock kits. Accurail, Tichy and Bowser continue to make nice kits for a fair price out of plastic. The "play value" of the kit building process varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Look at what they're producing for a reference point.
Also, look and the resin kits by Funaro and Camerlengo, F&C.
Alright. I think that, reading what all you guys have said correctly (I hope), O scale kits would be a good idea. As an aside, has anyone ever seen a model of the PRR theatrical cars?
I would not call the replies here adequate market research.
Most O scalers are 3 railers and have little to no interest in rolling stock kits. O scale 2 railers are a vanishing breed. Narrow gauge O scale is also a possibility, but again the marker is not large.
I would suggest attending a few O scale meets before doing anything.
Good luck
Paul
Fair point.
Remember, you're talking about a 3-dimensional model, so the issue of weight goes up as the cube of the difference in scale. If you simply scale the dimensions of an HO model to O scale, the model would weigh 8 times as much.