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Philosophy Friday (Early Edition)

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Philosophy Friday (Early Edition)
Posted by BATMAN on Thursday, September 24, 2015 7:28 PM

The internet is a wonderful thing. As a guy that liked to travel to see what the rest of the world was up to, I now often Google "model railroading in" pick your country or region of the world, just to see what's going on as far as our hobby is concerned. I recently got a chuckle when I read in a Chinese MRR forum that they wanted to start a petition to demand better quality from Chinese manufacturers. Laugh

We have a large world wide community in our hobby. Countries that were once behind the "Iron Curtain" always seemed to have a large participation in the hobby and once upon a time had to be very creative in building their pikes or not participate. Third world countries that have seen an increase in their standards of living now have more disposable income to (of course) spend on model railroads.

Most of us model what we are familiar with, which is usually something from our own country. However if your country did not have a railroad of any kind, zilch, zero, nothin, would you still be interested in railroads and more specifically model railroads? If you still had that interest, what would you model?

Now let's not make this too easy. If Canada had no railroads, I would most likely model a U.S. railroad. But that is way too easy. So let's make it that it has to be a different part of the planet. Pick a different region and maybe a country in that region and tell us why.

I'll now go and spend the weekend thinking of my response.Smile, Wink & Grin

Brent

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Posted by "JaBear" on Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:25 PM

BATMAN
However if your country did not have a railroad of any kind, zilch, zero, nothin, would you still be interested in railroads and more specifically model railroads?

Blimey Batman, that’s a big ask for a Bears imagination or lack thereof, (this is not a challenge though if someone wishes to pick up the gauntlet, I am prepared to stand corrected), because I think it would be hard to find a country that has not had a railway in some shape or form, and if I were to answer, I suspect my psychology student daughter would be advising me to answer very carefully!!.Dunce

BATMAN
So let's make it that it has to be a different part of the planet.

By modelling the US prototype I’m already fulfilling this part of the question, but in reality I believe, provided one is prepared to put in the effort, we’re spoilt for choice.
So if I was told, that from tomorrow modelling US railroads was Verboten,  Hmm let’s see what’s out there; so in no particular order.......
-Pre 1960 Rhodesian Railways, Garratts, more Garratts, and other cool steam locos, by the way did I mention the Garratts?
-Allied light railways on the Western Front 1915 -18, combining my interest in military history and railways.
-Military railways, the Western Desert, 1940 -43, same as above.
-The Dajeeling Himalayan Railway, narrow gauge fighting the grade.
But wait, there’s more!!!!”
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

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Posted by selector on Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:26 PM

At one time, the Ferrocarril Central del Peru, which ran from the ocean port of Callao up to a pass at 15,000 feet ASL and beyond, was considered one of the wonders of the engineering world.  I believe it is now called the Ferrocarril Central Andino.

It goes through a gorge that must have been crafted in hell, or else it was the last version of what the Kettle Valley Rwy had to build through in southern BC that satan devised.  It has tall steel trestles.  It has numerous switchbacks.  It has wyes that are not for turning; they simply deviate up into a re-entrant to maintain the obscene grade, run onto a tail long enough to accomodate a consist, and then it goes through the turnout up the same grade and turns once again to maintain its original course.

When I first encountered it, in 1957, and only five, the locomotives were Baldwin 2-8-0 Consolidation types of a reasonable size.  Also available for heavier work were four Bayer-Garratt locomotives of the 2-8-2+2-8-2 configuration which were enormous beside the much smaller Baldwins.

Simply, I like mountain railways.  I like the simplicity of the switchback and valley wye, even if they are costly to build.  I like a tunnel whose far portal empties onto a bridge, whose far end abutts the base of yet another tunnel.  Far below, fast and roaring Rio Rimac scours the rocks as it has for thousands of years.

On a much smaller scale, the puzzles that Ma Nature left for Henry Meiggs to solve are like my own when I design a railroad that suits me in the space She (the wifely She) allots me.  I like the challenges that come with new (for me) techniques, and I learn as much about myself as I learn about building model layouts in taking up these new challenges.

"The unexamined life is not worth living."  -Socrates

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Posted by dknelson on Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:28 PM

I am pretty sure my interest in model trains (beginning with some wind-up trains as a kid too young to have Lionel) was generated in some manner by seeing the real trains that ran through my home town.   I don't think television alone could have generated the interest.  I also assume it was real trains that caused my parents to get some railroad oriented childrens books.  I doubt if the childrens book alone without the presence of real trains would have made me so interested in toy, and later model, trains.

And yet I can recall Linn Westcott, then editor of MR, writing that for both adults and children there is an innate fascination in a motorized item moving on a self guided pathway, and that he felt that toy and model trains (and presumably, slot cars) did not need the presence of a prototype to be interesting to many kids and adults.  

I do suppose that if there was no prototype, that you were just interested in the model itself, that you would be indifferent as to prototype and perhaps then also indifferent as to interoperability -- Maerklin's proprietary track and electronics and European prototypes would be on an equal footing with anything else.  Perhaps.

I have known at least one model railroader, and a good one with a large and beautiful layout, who did not have one iota of interest in prototype trains.  For him the models were interesting in and of themselves.  He would get a bit annoyed when we would point out that this or that piece of rolling stock could not possibly have operated in his chosen year of 1958.   Annoyed - but not annoyed enough to remove the offending item from the layout!

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Posted by mlehman on Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:59 PM

selector
At one time, the Ferrocarril Central del Peru, which ran from the ocean port of Callao up to a pass at 15,000 feet ASL and beyond, was considered one of the wonders of the engineering world. I believe it is now called the Ferrocarril Central Andino. It goes through a gorge that must have been crafted in hell, or else it was the last version of what the Kettle Valley Rwy had to build through in southern BC that satan devised...

That's a good one, Crandell. I was thinking Ecuador myself, which has very similar challenges. Guatemala and Nicaragua in Central America are tamer, grade and curvature-wise, but both have equally scenc and atmospheric lines in their own ways.

From Nicaragua, 1984, an AH&D ditcher at a site repairing flood damage on the line from Managua to Leon and beyond. Sorry about the funky scan of my tiny 110 slides from that era.

On the other hand, if money were no barrier, Swizterland might well be callingCool Narrowgauge electrics, etc, along with spectacular scenary and engineering.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 25, 2015 12:33 AM

I am not quite sure whether my layout, which is just leaving the planning stage, fulfills the criteria. It´s set in a different country, but not on a different continent (viewed from where I am living). My layout is set in Switzerland and is based on impressions of the narrow gauge lines that spawned those great, world-renowned trains like the "Glacier Express" from Chur to Zermatt and the "Bernina Express" from Chur to Tirano/Italy. Both routes are registered in the charter of the UNESCO World Heritage.

mlehman
On the other hand, if money were no barrier, Swizterland might well be calling! Narrowgauge electrics, etc, along with spectacular scenary and engineering.

Mike - those nice BEMO locos and cars are not more expensive than the Blackstone Beauties. In Germany, there is a large second hand market for those Swiss locos and cars, but none for Blackstone´s creations. Even when bought new, Bemo seems to be a bargain when compared to Marklin and Roco, gieven the quality and the detail of the stock.

So, if I were a rich man, my layout would be set on a different continent, a different country - in that far out and remote place called Colorado.

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, September 25, 2015 12:52 AM

Sir Madog
Mike - those nice BEMO locos and cars are not more expensive than the Blackstone Beauties. In Germany, there is a large second hand market for those Swiss locos and cars, but none for Blackstone´s creations.

Ulrich,

Yeah, but I'd need two budgets to do both Bemo and Blackstone...or maybe that's precluded by the constraints of the thread?Stick out tongue

Of course, right now when the overall budget is effectively zero, it's easy to double what I can dream of on the cheap.Laugh

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 25, 2015 2:54 AM

Slightly Off Topic and without the intention to hijack this thread, but here is a video meant to wet your appetite for model railroading Swiss narrow gauge style:

 

Enjoy a trip over Reto Sager´s fantastic Bernina Railway layout!

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, September 25, 2015 10:14 AM

Wow! Great video, Ulrich. Proves once again that narrowgauge doesn't have to mean broke-down rattletraps.

Definitely captures the spirit of the Bernina. Are many of the place names invented, though? Or maybe my memory is just not working yet? I suspect since it's not an exact copy he's chosen to call then names that are similar, but slightly different?

On the plow-flanger, is the train repositioning it? Or do they sometimes run it on the rear of trains to keep track open?

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 25, 2015 10:19 AM

Mike - the names are names of the real places along the line. This is an exact copy of the real thing, albeit selectively compressed.

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, September 25, 2015 10:26 AM

Ulrich,

Thanks, guess I need to spend more quality time online at the various Bernina websitesDunce

I'm hoping to get some fresh pics soon of Swiss NG rail ops. My wife's office partner is in Europe right now (Italy at the moment) and will be traveling north soon. He's a pretty well-equipped (and published) rail photographer. Most of what he takes will stay in memory until he returns, but my wife made him promise to take some phone pics to send back while he's on the road. I'll arrange to share here to further enliven the reasons why people worldwide, if they don't choose Colorado narrowgauge, often choose the Swiss versionWink

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, September 25, 2015 11:57 AM

Guy's, I am never bothered when a thread of mine strays from the original topic, I figure a thread like this is just like a conversation and whatever direction it takes is fine with me.

I really liked Daves slant on the subject. I never thought about it being just about the mechanical aspect of the hobby instead of what and where. Thinking about all the contraptions I made with all my Meccano as a kid, sure makes me appreciate his point of view.

I am really into the rugged mountain railroading, so Switzerland would rank right up there. I enjoyed the trip I took from Zurich to Venice immensely. Past by the same church three times as we climbed higher and higher.

I think what Crandell offered up really interest me, as apart from the rugged engineering marvels of South American Railroads, it's the third world charm, it gives a feeling of stepping back to another time.

Brent

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, September 25, 2015 2:02 PM

Yowza, good one, Brent.

Lots of fresh air on the Devil's Nose, tooSmile, Wink & Grin

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, September 25, 2015 2:54 PM

BATMAN

Guy's, I am never bothered when a thread of mine strays from the original topic, I figure a thread like this is just like a conversation and whatever direction it takes is fine with me.

 

OK, which is better, DC or DCC?   Laugh
 
Rich

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, September 25, 2015 3:10 PM

It all depends on which region of the world you are modeling.Stick out tongueLaugh

Brent

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, September 25, 2015 3:43 PM

BATMAN

It all depends on which region of the world you are modeling.Stick out tongueLaugh

 

Tibet   Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by "JaBear" on Friday, September 25, 2015 3:47 PM
OK, which is better, DC or DCC?  Laugh Rich.
Oh dear me, Mr Hotrain, you disappoint me so. Here I thought you were going to wax lyrical on your alternative, something like this Japanese Government RailwaysC53 streamliner whisking a consist of Fuji War Bonds off to eager buyers.
(Photo courtesy of Wikipedia Commons)
Cheers, the saddened DCC Bear.Sad 

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, September 25, 2015 3:55 PM

You're getting on my nerves, JB.  It is Fiji, not Fuji.Super Angry

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, September 25, 2015 4:07 PM

richhotrain
Tibet Smile, Wink & Grin

Then it would be the wireless DCC system with the Highest frequency.Pirate

Brent

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, September 25, 2015 4:32 PM

While I do find any kind of railroading interesting to some degree, I must admit I would have a hard time getting interested in modeling a different region of the US, let alone another country.

I've never owned a model loco that said "Union Pacific" or "Santa Fe"..........

My modeling focus is very narrow, and based on a clearly defined set of goals - short of that, I might not even be in this hobby. Interestingly, while my goals are narrowly focused, they are not obsessively "strict" regarding prototype accuracy. At one time they were - but it proved to be "not fun".

I don't think modeling some other place would be fun for me.......

As to Rich's question, surely the answer is "none of the above", or, "best at what?".

Sheldon

PS - while I do model a "place" that I am very familiar with, I model a time before I was even born - and maybe that is an important factor for me - asking the question, "what was this place like before my time?".

 

    

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Posted by "JaBear" on Friday, September 25, 2015 4:41 PM

richhotrain
You're getting on my nerves, JB.

AArrrghhh, me cunning plan, it works!!!! MischiefStick out tonguePirate

richhotrain
 It is Fiji, not Fuji.

In that case then perhaps this...
 
....2 foot gauge diesel, Vuda Point, Fiji, early 2000s.
Cheers, the Bear.Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, September 25, 2015 5:40 PM

Sheldon, I see where you are coming from. I model the CPR because of my interest in the history of it long before my time. While I would still model something if the CPR did not exist, the interest would be at a much lower level.

Bear, thanks for answering my question on Fiji. At the top of the thread when you mention that there are probably very few countries without a RR of some sort Fiji came to mind, as I didn't remember seeing one when I was there. Now how about Tahiti????? I was too busy looking at the beautiful woman to notice much else. Those outer islands are the most beautiful place on earth, and the scenery is not bad either.Paradise

Brent

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Posted by selector on Friday, September 25, 2015 6:29 PM

  Brent, that is a very good video you found of the Central Andino.  You couldn't have missed how steep the grades are when it shows the first switchback about seven or eight minutes in.  Nothing moves quickly except maybe downhill.

We only took the train maybe twice in the nine years we were there, but I do recall Matucana, Chosica, and Ticlio.  The Junin pampa (prounounced who-NEEN) between La Oroya and Cerro de Pasco was a long flat stretch where the Consolidations' rods flew.  I recall getting cinders in my eyes if I dared take a look.

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Posted by BATMAN on Friday, September 25, 2015 7:15 PM

Crandell, I think I read the grade was 5%. I am thinking of a cartoon I once saw where the grade was so steep they threw out an anchor from the back of the train.Laugh

You must have been pretty young at the time. You didn't have the old Browny camera with you, did you? Pic's would have been fun.

Our friends just returned from their third visit down the West coast of South America. I have made the East coast myself, but from what I hear the Pacific side is a much more pleasent place to visit. I don't think I will make it at this stage of my life. Though my 40 year old back pack is still in my closet.Laugh 

Brent

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, September 25, 2015 7:21 PM

BATMAN

Sheldon, I see where you are coming from. I model the CPR because of my interest in the history of it long before my time. While I would still model something if the CPR did not exist, the interest would be at a much lower level.

Bear, thanks for answering my question on Fiji. At the top of the thread when you mention that there are probably very few countries without a RR of some sort Fiji came to mind, as I didn't remember seeing one when I was there. Now how about Tahiti????? I was too busy looking at the beautiful woman to notice much else. Those outer islands are the most beautiful place on earth, and the scenery is not bad either.Paradise

 

Brent,

A few additional thoughts:

First, the premise of your question is very interesting, even if my response is outside the "normal" relm of the question - maybe that is what makes it such a good question?

For me, starting in the hobby at a young age, and having very good mentors in the hobby at a young age, I possibly developed a more unique perspective, also possibly influenced by working in the hobby shop at a young age as well. I was selling trains to adult modelers at age 14.......and running a train department in one at 22. 

I don't see my perspective as special, or better, or more insightful - just different from most, as evidenced by some of my interactions over the years on this forum.....

I figured out years ago that I would never have the time and money to build/run/have every train that caught my eye - so I decided to examine what I really found most interesting and to zero in on that.

I have taken that approach with a number of things in life - it has served me well - well rounded is over rated......

Sheldon 

    

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, September 26, 2015 5:10 AM

BATMAN

Now let's not make this too easy. If Canada had no railroads, I would most likely model a U.S. railroad. But that is way too easy. So let's make it that it has to be a different part of the planet. Pick a different region and maybe a country in that region and tell us why.

I live in Vatican City, and there are no railroads to model.  Crying

Shall I move to Monaco where I spent my youth?  Confused

Rich

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 26, 2015 5:46 AM

richhotrain
I live in Vatican City, and there are no railroads to model.

Rich - I am sorry, but I stand to correct you!

Vatican City has a reasonably well developed transport network considering its size (consisting mostly of a piazza and walkways). As a state that is 1.05 kilometres (0.6 mi) long and 0.85 kilometres (0.5 mi) wide, it has a small transportation system with no airports or highways. The only aviation facility in Vatican City is the Vatican City Heliport. There is a standard gauge railway connected to Italy's network at Rome's Saint Peter's station by an 852-metre-long (932 yd) spur, 300 metres (330 yd) of which is within Vatican territory.

Pope John XXIII was the first Pope to make use of this railway. Pope John Paul II rarely used it. The railway is mainly used to transport freight.

Train service is rendered by Trenitalia.

 

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, September 26, 2015 5:56 AM

BATMAN
Now how about Tahiti?????

Yeah Brent, I knew I’d be caught out with some of the smaller Pacific Island nations, though playing fast and loose with the railway/railroad definition, I’d be prepared to argue the point that two rails laid on a wharf/pier and running, perhaps a 100 yards, to a warehouse (especially in the 1880s to 1920s era) would fit the bill. I did find this picture but really........Laugh
 
I’d be extremely foolish to question and even discount Dave Nelsons recollections and reasoning as to why his involvement in model railroading, but, and this is only one example, I’d have to ask why do people with no apparent attachment to the sea, model historic sailing ships?
Personally, and this is a very shallow answer,  I think there is a desire amongst some not only to escape, temporarily, their everyday lives and responsibilities, but also try something completely different.
 
I know that no one likes a Smart Alec but I hate to say, (or do I??Devil) both the Vatican and Monaco have rail transport, so I’ll not be visiting you on your luxury yacht berthed in Monaco Harbour Rich, for fear of being keelhauled.
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, September 26, 2015 6:01 AM

Critics.

All critics.

Truth be told, I live on the Isles of Scilly.  Dead

Rich

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, September 26, 2015 6:06 AM

richhotrain
I live on the Isles of Scilly

You know I am very tempted to say, "how appropriate", but will desist.Angel Laugh

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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