ATLANTIC CENTRALAs commented by myself and others - long trains are always a WOW!
Only if they stay on the track or stay coupled..I've seen to many long trains derail because of speed,stringlining or uncouple due to poor coupler height..Many members run long trains so their train is in the spot light-I've seen that too.
Again areas may vary or the one doing the switching wasn't to good at it.
I have had several vistors to spend their time watching me switch cars and including one lady that remarked her grandfather was a Southern RR yard engineer and she use to watch him work..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have both on the same collection of benchwork, but nothing ever orbits the mainline loop unless I'm running in a new piece of motive power (reactivated after ages in a storage box) or entertaining mundane visitors (seldom.)
My original dream was to have a reverse loop with staging at each end of a stretch of main that followed the configuration of a specific JNR secondary main line. That version was never built. (I was a nomad at the time, courtesy of the USAF.) I got half of our double garage and the concept went to point to loop, with staging at the point and the all-purpose station halfway around the teardrop.
Then (ruffles and flourishes) my sister-in-law convinced my wife to let me have the entire garage! The mainline redesign resulted in a long dogbone mainline loop (more than half hidden) with 'reverted loop' staging for catenary freights, 'sequential' staging for combustion-engined freights and a double-ended yard for all passenger trains (except EMU, which have a single track between the mains just inside the twin portals of the Nichigeki Tunnels.) There's also a single reverse connection that has to be used by every train with a locomotive, since locomotives always have to reappear from the same portal they left through.
The one main zone meets Larry's requirement:
BRAKIE Staging to staging with a large center yard isn't a bad idea-you can have run through trains stop for crew change(in theory) and you can have trains to originate or terminate in that yard.
Staging to staging with a large center yard isn't a bad idea-you can have run through trains stop for crew change(in theory) and you can have trains to originate or terminate in that yard.
Add engine changes from catenary to steam (and vice-versa) and interchange with the pure point-to-point TTT. That describes Tomikawa.
The TTT (Wealth River Valley Iron Road) has always been envisioned as a pure point to point, and that's how it ended up. The steep grade keeps the trains short, the sharp curves keep (most) long cars and big locomotives (the entire JNR power roster) at bay, and I can indulge in the kind of operation Japanese short lines had before paved roads opened the hinterlands to truck access.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
BRAKIE Texas Zepher Our club had a large yard between two staging areas. But my experience was the opposite. No one wanted to watch switching operations more than a couple moves. They wanted to see many trains moving, the longer the train the better. I wonder if that has to do with location? This area is rich in railroad history and just about everybody had one or two family members that worked on one of the railroads. The club I was a member of ran 20-30 car trains because the average siding was 32 cars. Here's the show as our visitors saw it.. 5-8 trains on the main with meets running at scale speeds. Engines being move about in the engine terminal and to and from the freight and passenger terminal. Switching at the freight yard and passenger terminal. Trains arriving departing the yards or passenger terminal Trains disappearing into tunnels or behind a hill. Completely different trains appearing on the layout from the same tunnels or hill. The "WOW! factor was our goal. In short no one member's train was in the spot light nor was there track hogs like you see at some clubs with loop layouts or modular layout displays at train shows.
Texas Zepher Our club had a large yard between two staging areas. But my experience was the opposite. No one wanted to watch switching operations more than a couple moves. They wanted to see many trains moving, the longer the train the better.
I wonder if that has to do with location? This area is rich in railroad history and just about everybody had one or two family members that worked on one of the railroads.
The club I was a member of ran 20-30 car trains because the average siding was 32 cars.
Here's the show as our visitors saw it..
5-8 trains on the main with meets running at scale speeds.
Engines being move about in the engine terminal and to and from the freight and passenger terminal.
Switching at the freight yard and passenger terminal.
Trains arriving departing the yards or passenger terminal
Trains disappearing into tunnels or behind a hill.
Completely different trains appearing on the layout from the same tunnels or hill.
The "WOW! factor was our goal.
In short no one member's train was in the spot light nor was there track hogs like you see at some clubs with loop layouts or modular layout displays at train shows.
Larry, I have never been to an open house or train show where there was much public interest in switching. Multi train action of any kind - yes.
As commented by myself and others - long trains are always a WOW!
My layout plan is very much about realisticly long trains.............30 to 50 cars typically - just like this region in the era I model.
Sheldon
dehusman Doughless What some people are describing is what I think is the best layout design, point to point operation where the two points are connected, allowing for continuous running when you want it. The best arrangement is the arrangement that supports the operation. Depending on the operation a loop with continuous staging, point to pont, lop to point, loop to loop or any combination of those could be the "best" option. For example for the operation I am interested in, the staging in a loop option would be totally inappropriate for the traffic flow. On my previous layout the trains would come out of Reading, PA, run half way down a branch, then leave the visible layout where they would virtually go to the end of the branch (Wilmington) and at some later time the train would turn and return to Reading. I represented Reading with stub ended staging and the Wilmington end was a balloon loop staging. That fit the operation perfectly. My next layout will follow that approach. My interest is modern short lines with short trains. Trains are made up and originate at the interchange yard (about three tracks) for delivery to a major industry several miles away, spotting cars at industries along the way. If I were doing that theme I would put a loop with staging to represent the class 1 railroad and the shortline would be purely point to point. That would make the track and staging arrangement fit the operation.
Doughless What some people are describing is what I think is the best layout design, point to point operation where the two points are connected, allowing for continuous running when you want it.
The best arrangement is the arrangement that supports the operation. Depending on the operation a loop with continuous staging, point to pont, lop to point, loop to loop or any combination of those could be the "best" option. For example for the operation I am interested in, the staging in a loop option would be totally inappropriate for the traffic flow. On my previous layout the trains would come out of Reading, PA, run half way down a branch, then leave the visible layout where they would virtually go to the end of the branch (Wilmington) and at some later time the train would turn and return to Reading. I represented Reading with stub ended staging and the Wilmington end was a balloon loop staging. That fit the operation perfectly.
My next layout will follow that approach. My interest is modern short lines with short trains. Trains are made up and originate at the interchange yard (about three tracks) for delivery to a major industry several miles away, spotting cars at industries along the way.
If I were doing that theme I would put a loop with staging to represent the class 1 railroad and the shortline would be purely point to point. That would make the track and staging arrangement fit the operation.
Point taken. But I have no interest in devoting space for staging tracks or loops for the class 1 trains. It would be a long train, and probably more than one needed, and would only make an appearance on a small part of the layout. Too much space and resources tied up into too little reward, IMO. As you said, it depends on the operation, but for me, the best way to interchange short cuts of cars on and off the layout would be by cassette, fiddle, or concealed under scenery and buildings and devote as much space as possible to modeling the part I am interested in.
- Douglas
BRAKIEI wonder if that has to do with location? This area is rich in railroad history and just about everybody had one or two family members that worked on one of the railroads.
My layout has both continuous loop and point-to-point operations, mainly because that's what the prototype had. In the 1890's, the former Santa Ana & Newport Railroad built a "U" of track from Santa Ana south to Newport Beach, then northwest to Huntington Beach parallel to the coast line of the Pacific Electric, then north almost to Westminster. When the Southern Pacific bought the SA&N around 1900, it extended both ends of the "U" north to connect with the SP main line creating a continuous loop around much of north and central Orange County, California. The SP actually ran a mixed train around this loop (dubbed the Merry-Go-Round train) providing commuter and express service into the 1930's. My layout includes this loop of track with additional point-to-point operations. I model a "what if" scenario that assumes the SA&N remained independent into the 1950's maintaining an existing interchange connection with the Santa Fe while developing new interchange connections with the SP (resulting in the continuous loop) and the Pacific Electric. This scenario also allows me to model the area I've lived in most of my life plus four different railroads.
Hornblower
Texas ZepherOur club had a large yard between two staging areas. But my experience was the opposite. No one wanted to watch switching operations more than a couple moves. They wanted to see many trains moving, the longer the train the better.
DoughlessWhat some people are describing is what I think is the best layout design, point to point operation where the two points are connected, allowing for continuous running when you want it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have a continuous run 75' single track main with one long passing siding. This allows me to alternate the operation between two 55 car freight trains set up in opposite directions. There is a branch line operation, both ends connected to the main in opposing locations. Here the line snakes between the two places and I can operate point to point between two yards.
All DC with 'MANY" blocks. Soon to be signaled.
Mark H
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
BRAKIEThe biggest crowd pleaser was watching switching operations
Ever watch one train enter the yard while another was leaving? Quite the crowd pleaser.
jjdamnitWhat's your particular preference on layout design and operation. My question is..."Loop vs. Point to Point...What's your preference?"
My question is..."Loop vs. Point to Point...What's your preference?"
If one makes the "loop" both a continuous loop and a reversing loop it is possible for a single person to make up a train in the yard, take it out and run as long as desired and then return to break it up. The hard part is convincing the operating system (computers or cards), that it is now a different location than it was before.
My layout is a Point-Loop-Point arrangement with a branchline to another point. If I had it my way there would have been no loop, but the CEO/President of the road (also the girlfriend and its partially her layout) insisted. I admit it is handy to have a continuous run for breaking in new locomotives. Possibly it would be advisable to have a circle on a square piece of plywood to do breaking in on DC instead of having to put in a decoder. Or maybe a piece of track with an auto-reversing circuit.
Hi!
Well, I prefer both - loop & point to point! But my current and previous layouts were "loops", for the simple reason (to me) of space.
In my view, a point to point layout needs a lot of room for a main line of length and a bit of time to go from A to B. My 11x15 layout room won't do it for HO, although a case could be made for N or HOn3.
The point to point gives a layout a sense of purpose, moving goods from one place to another. That is what a RR is all about.
However, a layout with continuous running gives the pleasure of being able to set the trains on a course and let them just run, and sitting back and watching them go. Non MRs and kids especially love this feature.
That being said, if I had the room for a decent point to point, I would incorporate a facility for continuous running, and have the best of both worlds.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
My primary operational interest is branchline point to point from the junction off to some town and back. Ideally, if I had the space there would be a giant loop for the main line connected by staging. Trains would come from staging, pass through the junction and eventually back into staging while I was working the branch. At some point there would be action at the junction where cars would be dropped off and picked up. The mix would also allow me to have passenger equipment come by a couple times a day just for some variety. Much like you would see standing trackside in towns all over the country.
jim
Haven't had a chance to read the entire thread, but here is our experience at the Willamette Model RR Club in Clackamas OR. Our space is roughly 30 by 60 feet.
We run into both ends of a double-ended manual staging yard (mole), making it both a loop and a point to point operation. Trains that run the length of the main, about half of the schedule, take 40 to 50 minutes to make the trip, and the time and distance give a real feeling of going somewhere. Most trains have some work en route, and most will make a couple of meets and need three or four warrants to run the distance. It's very satisfying. There's an article and partial trackplan at http://mrhpub.com/2013-02-feb/land/ and the NMRA magazine had an article this spring. The railroad will be open during the national in Portland.
Although it is a continuous loop, can't remember ever seeing it used that way. There's also an option of running from a reversing loop in main staging to a reversing loop at the end of a long branch, but the second loop isn't in service yet.
I've had smaller railroads and still prefer a linear kind of route, because I like proto-operations better than running laps. A bedroom-size layout years ago had "interchange" sidings at one end, and then branched into a Y configuration. It was quick to build and fun to run.
I can do both. At one end is a modest yard that is connected at one end to a 'Y'. Change a couple of switches and the trains go around a reversing loop. Right now the switch at the loop must be manually thrown. Then you can select which main to run on. (I have a double track main line.)
At the other end is an engine yard. By setting the swithes in the right order the train will complete a loop. But, The train will exit the yard on the opposte main that it came in on.
South Penn
Main Isle:
Looking Left at the end of the Main Isle.
Hidden to the right of the Main isle, looking down the window isle.Every railroad has to have an armpit:
Tracks on the Left side of the right loop on the main isle : )
On end view of the west table (as seen entering the doorway!
Same set of loops looking down from above (Like where else would you look down from?)
The Layout room from the Tower. The main isle is to the left, the east isle is to the right, 242nd Street is at my back.
The east isle looking nort, door to the left, the model board had not yet been installed, but the interlocking plant is fasing away from us at the end of the left table.
The middle of the west table, it is 6 feet wide, the middle is not used, and generally not seen. I had to stand on a ladder to get this picture. Across the top of this will be the Times Square city scape to the left, and the Coney Island yards to the Right.
Finally, the work bench under the 242nd Street Station on the north wall.
The Bell is ringing, it is time for Noon Prayer.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Mine is a big loop with a long passing siding and some in side tracks because that is the ony way i know how to do it at the time.
Russell
DoughlessThere only needs to be a convincing scenic break at the area where the two points connect if the connection is not totally concealed from the main layout.
I'll toss this in for fun..At the aforementioned club the staging connecting track ran along the South wall of the meeting room since that was the only place we could put it..
I suggested that location as a joke but,the thought stuck.
My latest, in the early stages of construction, is a walk-in, around-the-room design shaped as a bent capital E. It has a single track main that forms a loop by each end connecting to double end staging which is hidden at the lower level of the middle peninsula. The staging also has reversing loops for each direction and separate loop tracks that serve as the loads-in, emptys-out feature for the coal colliery-coal dock traffic.
This allows me to operate a train in a continous loop, or retrace its steps as a turn, or to magically re-appear as another train at either terminal.
Jim
My current layout is two loops each through hidden staging. The staging allows the illusion of point-to-point but the continuity of the loops allow continuous running. Continuous running is enjoyable when I simply want to watch and listen.
D
Mine is a double track main with 2 loops and 2 reversing loops inside of the inner main. Aso there are two cross overs, With this set up the trains can go from one main to the other as well as reverse direction. Leads off the outer main go to the yard and a spur.
Keeping MINEFULL of how the turnouts are thrown in the biggest problem. I have indicators but still forget.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
What some people are describing is what I think is the best layout design, point to point operation where the two points are connected, allowing for continuous running when you want it. There only needs to be a convincing scenic break at the area where the two points connect if the connection is not totally concealed from the main layout.
My next layout will follow that approach. My interest is modern short lines with short trains. Trains are made up and originate at the interchange yard (about three tracks) for delivery to a major industry several miles away, spotting cars at industries along the way. The interchange acts as staging for cars entering and leaving the layout and will be connected to the major industry's spurs, with concealment of the connection facilitated by backdrop, scenery, and the large building itself.
I like the loop. That way the train well always comes back, sometimes.
I did to point to point designs for my HO trains because there's no more to add the curve track to make a loop. I got frustrated getting up and down to see where the engine must be. Technically it would be fun, but it's not.
I played with both styles or versions and I prefer the loop. You know what's weird I have HO Scale turnouts but not in N.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
BRAKIE Sheldon,Staging to staging with a large center yard isn't a bad idea-you can have run through trains stop for crew change(in theory) and you can have trains to originate or terminate in that yard. I was a member of a club that had two small yards with two staging yards and the end results was the visitors never had to watch the same trains since the trains could disappear into staging or terminate in one of the yards. The biggest crowd pleaser was watching switching operations or watching a steam or diesel engine take a spin on the turntable.Kids love watching that! Ever watch one train enter the yard while another was leaving? Quite the crowd pleaser. There was always train movement on the main lines or in the yards. BTW..The staging yards was connected by a hidden track so loads always went North to either a off layout lake port or power plant (aka North staging) and the empties South to the off layout mines(aka South staging).
Sheldon,Staging to staging with a large center yard isn't a bad idea-you can have run through trains stop for crew change(in theory) and you can have trains to originate or terminate in that yard.
I was a member of a club that had two small yards with two staging yards and the end results was the visitors never had to watch the same trains since the trains could disappear into staging or terminate in one of the yards.
The biggest crowd pleaser was watching switching operations or watching a steam or diesel engine take a spin on the turntable.Kids love watching that!
Ever watch one train enter the yard while another was leaving? Quite the crowd pleaser. There was always train movement on the main lines or in the yards.
BTW..The staging yards was connected by a hidden track so loads always went North to either a off layout lake port or power plant (aka North staging) and the empties South to the off layout mines(aka South staging).
Exactly Larry - my layout plan allows all that same kind of action. So why do all those features twice on a small scale, when you can do them once on a less compressed and more prototypical scale?
I prefer a single track mainline with return loop to return return loop and staging on both ends. The return loops can be automated if I want to just watch a train run. On the layout I am currently building, at a scale 40mph it will take a train 12 1/2 minutes to get from the lower return loop to the upper return loop (and 12 1/2 minutes to return back to the lower return loop) so it's not like it will be a very fast repetitive back/forth. :)
I am modeling the UP single track main from Ogden to the north so the lower return loop represents east headed to Cheyenne and the upper return loop represents north to Pocatello.
The layout also has several fairly long branchlines that end in stub 'points'.
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have friend who models the PRR - his layouts fills a basement and has three decks - but his trains never leave the Baltimore metro area of the PRR in 1946. He has a 10 foot long model of Baltimore's Penn station complex - its all in what your interests are. His layout is great fun to operate - his mainlines all go off stage to loop staging. I am contemplating a new layout that would model Dearborn Station in downtown Chicago with its stub end 10-track stub configuration. Leading out of the station would be the C&WI 4-track mainline to Alton Junction and beyond. Alton Junction is a mere 13 blocks from Dearborn Station, and it would require 42 feet of layout space to reflect the prototype. So, like Sheldon's example, I would need 42 feet to represent only 13 blocks, a little more than 1 1/2 miles to scale. But, trains would disappear from the main layout into a hidden reverse loop so that the illusion of time and space would be there before the departing trains reappear. The reverse loop would also be used to re-route the trains to the C&WI coach yard off to the side of the main layout, so that they need not immediately return to Dearborn Station. Completing the layout would be a continuous loop around the periphery to accommodate non-Dearborn trains, mainly freight. That continuous loop would not be obvious when viewing the main layout which would be devoted to the prototype run from Alton Junction to Dearborn Station. As Sheldon said, it's all in what your interests are. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have friend who models the PRR - his layouts fills a basement and has three decks - but his trains never leave the Baltimore metro area of the PRR in 1946. He has a 10 foot long model of Baltimore's Penn station complex - its all in what your interests are. His layout is great fun to operate - his mainlines all go off stage to loop staging.
I have friend who models the PRR - his layouts fills a basement and has three decks - but his trains never leave the Baltimore metro area of the PRR in 1946. He has a 10 foot long model of Baltimore's Penn station complex - its all in what your interests are. His layout is great fun to operate - his mainlines all go off stage to loop staging.
I am contemplating a new layout that would model Dearborn Station in downtown Chicago with its stub end 10-track stub configuration. Leading out of the station would be the C&WI 4-track mainline to Alton Junction and beyond.
Alton Junction is a mere 13 blocks from Dearborn Station, and it would require 42 feet of layout space to reflect the prototype. So, like Sheldon's example, I would need 42 feet to represent only 13 blocks, a little more than 1 1/2 miles to scale.
But, trains would disappear from the main layout into a hidden reverse loop so that the illusion of time and space would be there before the departing trains reappear. The reverse loop would also be used to re-route the trains to the C&WI coach yard off to the side of the main layout, so that they need not immediately return to Dearborn Station.
Completing the layout would be a continuous loop around the periphery to accommodate non-Dearborn trains, mainly freight. That continuous loop would not be obvious when viewing the main layout which would be devoted to the prototype run from Alton Junction to Dearborn Station.
As Sheldon said, it's all in what your interests are.
Rich
Rich,
That sounds like a great layout concept - go for it!
Alton Junction