tommymr How about a sale every now and then if you are at full retail all the time? One shop in Chicago is always at full retail, never has sales, and I know for a fact he owns the building and it's paid off. Other shop is in Des Plaines and he runs a sale every now and then -I'd say at least 4 times a year. Moved to a bigger store in the same mall a couple years ago, and I doubt he owns the building in the mall. Throw the customers a bone every once in a while. Don't want to start a war on how to run a business, but presumably one would have less overhead with a smaller store that's paid off and might generate more business. He's been there forever though, so his business model must work for him.
How about a sale every now and then if you are at full retail all the time? One shop in Chicago is always at full retail, never has sales, and I know for a fact he owns the building and it's paid off.
Other shop is in Des Plaines and he runs a sale every now and then -I'd say at least 4 times a year. Moved to a bigger store in the same mall a couple years ago, and I doubt he owns the building in the mall. Throw the customers a bone every once in a while. Don't want to start a war on how to run a business, but presumably one would have less overhead with a smaller store that's paid off and might generate more business. He's been there forever though, so his business model must work for him.
If he's been there that long, he probably has a pretty good handle on what his customer base is willing to pay and if business is good at full retail, why discount?
My LHS has an annual sale that lasts about two weeks. I've never asked but I think the reason is to sell of inventory to reduce taxes. Never having been in business myself, I'm not sure how all that works.
Part of it is the old real estate cliche, Location. Location. Location.
Example - a small general hobby shop on a side street in a mostly-residential neighborhood. Seemingly a next to disastrous location, especially in those pre-internet days. BUT!!! Immediately across the street was an old building with a couple of thousand geeks and nerds in attendance, many of whom were either model railroaders or builders/collectors of other kinds of models. Business was good (including a fair amount of mine.)
Several years after I graduated the New York City Board of Education moved the Bronx High School of Science to a nice new campus several miles away. The first day of the month after the big move the empty show window sported a FOR RENT sign. Without the Science trade the neighborhood would have hardly supported the shop's electric bill.
If I was siting a hobby shop I would love a location across the street from a school full of techies. If the school is better known for its sports teams...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Chuck
I'm joining this discussion fairly late but I'll offer my two cents anyway. I am fortunate in that there are three successful LHSes in north Columbus, OH within walking distance of each other. It was even better when I lived in Columbus and was no more than a 10 minute drive from the farthest one. One has been in business since the 1960s and another since the 1970s. The one I frequent most often is The Train Station and I think the fact they do only trains has been a big reason for their success. Everyone who works there seems very knowledgeable about the hobby and the business. If there's something one person doesn't know chances are somebody else will. There are always at least two people working there. There are two rail lines right behind it but I don't know if that has contributed to it's success. It is in the middle of a strip mall and you cant' see the rail line from the parking lot. You could frequent it for years and not even know there was a rail line there. They do have a website although I'm not sure how much that contributes to their success. Until recently I would order through Walthers and have it delivered to The Train Station but Walthers changed the way that works so now I just e-mail them with my order.
The oldest of the three is a general purpose hobby shop and if they have a specialty it is in military modeling. That takes up the front half of their store. They have a decent selection of MR stuff and sometimes I find a bargain there.
The third and newest of the three is a combination hobby shop and print shop under one roof. They handle a lot of second hand merchandise and have a little bit of everything as far as MR stuff. There again I sometimes find a bargain there or something that has been out of production and hard to find. I usually drop in there two or three times a year just in case I get lucky.
NittanyLion Be open til 9 on weekdays and open on Sunday. If you're open 10-5 weekedays and open 9-3 on Saturday, you're only giving me (and a lot of people like me) a six hour window a week that I can go to your store.
Be open til 9 on weekdays and open on Sunday. If you're open 10-5 weekedays and open 9-3 on Saturday, you're only giving me (and a lot of people like me) a six hour window a week that I can go to your store.
There is a "local" shop about 1 hour away in a sleepy little tourist town. His is fairly well stocked, but he is a retiree, so everytime I stop, there is always a sign in the window that askes customers to call him, and he come down and open up.
I never have called, as I prefer to drop in while he is there. I would also feel obligated to make purchase if he opened for me (right or wrong)
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Yeah. The thread had gray whiskers.
I'm off to the South Mountain Div. meet.
Tom
ACY I hope I won't be lambasted for resurrecting an old thread, but I just thought I'd add this:
I hope I won't be lambasted for resurrecting an old thread, but I just thought I'd add this:
Rich
Alton Junction
Main Line Hobby Supply is renting the Blue Ridge Summit Fire Hall across the street from the shop, for tomorrow's mini convention of the South Mountain Division, NMRA. The Hobby shop owner doesn't HAVE to do that. He just knows it's good business, as well as neighborliness. I think he may have some specials tomorrow at the store, but I'm not sure.
What makes them successful? An on-line presence to complement the physical store.
RT
Metro Red LineLHSes can survive in this day and age, but they have to learn how to be creative, fun, be smart with marketing and know how to create a community out of their clientele, so they would want to come back.
I'm sure that helps some, but my impression is it's still a very very tough business to be successful in. Part of the reason is some shops still can't make a sufficient profit from "walk-ins" because there simply isn't enough people to "darken their door" to keep most shops afloat. There has to be quite a volume of sales to pay the rent, utilities, taxes, salaries, buy new merchandise to stock the shelves, and keep the prices sufficiently discounted enough to get people to buy from them vs. one of the numours online vendors.
I mentioned "reach" and that seems to be the key these days to make up for the lack of "walk-in" sales that don't seem to be sufficient to keep most shops open long term. Those sales simply aren't enough, even if you hide easter eggs, or provide great personalized services and keep fresh stock etc. Those are all important, don't get me wrong, and all help, but are they enough to keep the doors open year after year? For many shops, probably not.
So the successful shop formula is generally going to need to include a major online sales component - similar to shops like MB Klein, which has a brick & mortor store with great customer service and lots of fresh stock and great prices, but that online store is drawing in sales from all across the country - so thats the "reach" component, so they are getting walk-ins from the greater DC area, PLUS most of the 50 states for people who order form their website. Stores with both of those elements have a formula for sucess, if done well.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
One of the LHS in my area (Rail Master Hobbies in Bellflower, California) is kinda cool, they like to do things differently. They've only been around less than 5 years, but since then they have actually *expanded* their store into a new, larger location, quite the opposite of how many LHSes are shutting down.Anyway, this store had an "Easter Sale" this past Saturday (they were closed on Easter Sunday), and not only were certain items discounted in the store, but they left 18 plastic Easter Eggs around the store. If you find one (one per customer, as per the rules), you open it up at the register and inside is a piece of paper with a number on it. The number corresponds to a prize, whether it's a store item or a store credit gift certificate of a certain amount.
They encouraged people to go early to guarantee they'll find an egg. I was busy earlier in the day and couldn't arrive at the store until 4pm that afternoon. So I figured all the eggs were gone. But, surprise! I was able to find the last egg, hidden in the HO scale detail parts display wall. It had a piece of paper that had the number "3" on it, which corresponded to a free Engineer's Hat. I already own an engineer's hat, but I have a Southern Pacific herald patch that needs somewhere to be sewn on, and this new hat is the perfect thing. But most of all, it got people going to their store and spending money. I spent about $99 in merchandise there that day. LHSes can survive in this day and age, but they have to learn how to be creative, fun, be smart with marketing and know how to create a community out of their clientele, so they would want to come back.
snjroyInteresting observations folks. One thing I like about our LHS is the test track. The owner systematically offers to give the loco a spin, new or used.
Last December I was in a hobby shop that no longer test ran locomotives or was they allowed to be removed from their boxes in short and according to the sign behind the counter it was because (loosely) "locomotives and freight cars have small fragile details".
I can understand and appreciate the reasoning behind that..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761Anyway, I think the bigger picture is a few people paying the extra for the LHS experience isn't going to be enough to make them successful; not in this day and age.
Jim,I agree..I just can't bring myself to buy a engine at full MSRP when I know I can get them cheaper.A freight car or two yes,since I won't be saving all that much after shipping.
IMHO loyalty is what loyalty does.Give me a modest discount at check out and the shop will see my smiling face with open billfold..Give your croonies discounts while charging me full MSRP then don't expect to see me making return trips other then for small items like paint,balsa wood and Evergreen Plastic shapes--that is if I don't decide to add these items to my next on line order.
Remember Mr.LHS owner you need me and my hobby dollars far more then I need you..
In reality, you do have to treat them like a charity if it means an extra 30, 50, or even more for an engine that you might not be able to afford unless you bought from MB Kleins or a similar shop. I'm glad you are blessed with the resources, to afford to pay the extra to have the luxury to take things back if you need to. My wife might not be as understanding as yours (keep in mind the hobbiest isn't the only person in the picture). For what it's worth, MB Kleins is the closest decent hobby shop to me so I guess I'll consider it my LHS and support it. :P
Anyway, I think the bigger picture is a few people paying the extra for the LHS experience isn't going to be enough to make them successful; not in this day and age. We can pat ourselves on the back and feel good for supporting the LHS, but the online sales are what is going to give many the "reach" they need to remain successful long term.
Jim
For me, I am not worried about supporting the Maryland economy or where ever Klein is located. I am worried about the Detroit/ Michigan economy which is where I live and work.
My LHS has 3-4 older gentlemen who work there part time. They are very competent and being able to have a job they like makes a huge difference in their lives. They and the owner are also tax payers who contribute to the local economy.
I don't view them as a charity, they provide goods and services in exchange for money. Its nice being able to go in there and actually look at items before buying them. Never had to box up and play the mail box shuffle either. If its defective, I return for exchange or refund.
I like being able to look at all the various colors and brands of paint side by side. I like being able to buy different snow plows or detail parts and take them home, decide which one fits and looks the best and take the rest back.
I have over 40 engines, most were purchased at the LHS. So, maybe I could have a few more if I had bought them online. I would rather keep my LHS.
I think Howard nailed it.
I loved the old Arlington Hobby Crafters when they were next to Parkington Shopping Center in the 70's. It was only a little off my commuting route, so I stopped in there once a week. Probably bought more than I should, but the owner was very friendly and not pushy - just a nice guy to talk trains with.
I'll have to try Blue Ridge next time I'm in the area.
Enjoy
Paul
Soo Line fanA customer base willing to support the lhs with their high dollar purchases and not just glue and paint.
Not many willing or able to do that anymore - I certainly can't afford support an LHS as if it were a church or charity and "tithe" to keep them open.
Soo Line fan A customer base willing to support the lhs with their high dollar purchases and not just glue and paint.
A customer base willing to support the lhs with their high dollar purchases and not just glue and paint.
I tried that just last week at my LHS. M.B. Klein had BLI Pacifics for a certain price and I gave my LHS a call and asked him how close he could come to their price. His price was $90.00 CAN. more than M.B. Klein. I would have gone $25.00 more than M.B. Klein, but not $90.00. I guess you have more loyalty than I do.
The same thing happened when I bought my new truck. I went to the Ford dealer and to the same salesman I had bought my previous truck from and told him to give me his best price. When I got home there was an E-Mail waiting for me from another dealer for $3400.00 less than the salesguy quoted me at the dealer where I had been going for years.
I let my loyalty slip once again. Oh the humanity.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Location, customer base, competitive pricing (yes, I know you don't discount like some of the big guys, but don't charge me double what I can pay online...), friendly, knowledgable staff (the knowing you by name after one purchase is a nice touch), and having selections in stock, or available (relatively) quickly at a decent price. (If you need to order it for me, at least be close to the same price as I would pay elsewhere.)
Location, important that there is ample free parking (or do what Tom does near me, knock a quarter [$0.25] off the price to pay for my parking meter. Kinda a nice touch.)
Customer base, while somewhat location dependent, is also needed. No customers = no store. Loyal customers, won over by you and your store, will come back. This is really needed.
Competiteve pricing, not overcharging me just because you are giving it to me now... If it costs me less with shipping online, and is by a considerable amount (I've seen as much as $100 difference counting shipping online vrs one store on a locomotive. I do not buy at that much higher. And, other end of the spectrum, again referencing the one local store, Tom discounted one item by 10% just because I got it from him! and was not there looking specifically for it. Needless to explain why I preferred buying from Tom over the other store....)
Friendly staff, needed to be smiling, and knowledgable about what you carry/sell. (Learning who I am is a plus, but I will overlook that, especially when I only come in about 2-3 times a year. However, one LHS, now closed due to rent fees, did indeed learn who I was, by name, after my first visit. He ended up getting my biggest orders, but only after he had been so friendly and knowledgable. He cared enough to learn who I was, what I was looking for, and took the time to answer my questions first. Never forgot that!) Know what you have, can order, and what it does at very least. (One store had someone who knew everything about video games, but nothing about anything carried in the store.... At least he smiled when I walked in and back out though!) And, speaking of, smile when I walk in! (Visited one store, and the person there just flat out could care less whether I was there or not... Not so little as a hello, nor even a smile and head nod! Now, I'm not there. Never went back.) I understand, working with John Q. Public is not the easiest of jobs (trust me, 10 yrs experience here), but if you are flat out grumpy for no apperant reason, when you have never seen me in your store before, don't expect me to ever be back, especially at a close to one hour drive to get there....
In stock, or at least be able to order it for me. And if you have to order it, I'm more than willing to do a deposit, or even pay up front, but be reasonable on it. Don't charge me an outrageous amount just because it's a special order. (Had one store offer to order an item, if I paid up front, but at a markup of close to 50% higher than a online retailer was. I passed on that as well, considering he could have asked a little higher, still getting profit, but instead chose to go way higher. [When the item is $90.00, that $40 fee is indeed a bit much....] There is just no reason to charge that much over your cost, unless you really can't afford to be here, and I will not pay your weeks rental fee just for the convenience of you ordering it instead of me.) I'm willing to work with you, but only so far on price points. I know, you need to make a profit, but I should not be giving you enough extra on one locomotive to buy a steakhouse dinner for you and the misses.... Be reasonable here!
That's what makes me come back, and loyally support you every chance I get. Basic, friendly customer service at a decent price, while knowing what you are doing. That will make me come back, and (again, knowing people by working with J.Q. Public) will help a long way in making your store successful with others. Everyone can do it, but several choose not to care enough to do it. They have zero chance at making it. Best part of this though, being friendly and (somewhat) knowledgable costs zero money!
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Several things strike me. I think one of the best-known LHSs in Southern California is headed down the tubes -- one thing that formerly contributed to its success was that it formerly hired retired guys on a part-time basis. They tended to be smart, experienced in the hobby, and friendly. For whatever reason, the shop has switched to younger guys working full-time for whatever he's paying, which means they aren't smart, don't care about the hobby, and are terrible to deal with. (They resent having to go into a drawer to get decals by number.)
I used to shop out of the Walthers newsletter and give them my orders for sale items, saved things like big-ticket DCC components for them to order. But when the boy geniuses couldn't get the orders right, I gave the owner several chances to fix it. I have several LHSs in reasonable distance, but why bother for most items?
I've said here several times that more people need to watch the TV show Bar Rescue. Maybe MRVP needs to have Howard Zane run something like Train Store Rescue.
Main Line Hobbies is about the only thing I miss about PA since I moved back to Maine, the land of no LHS. As far as what makes a LHS successful, I think it can be summed up in just 3 words:
Stock On Hand
I am always willing to pay a bit extra to keep a shop in business so that I can have a place to go and see things in person. But, in the world of being able to order things cheaper than what the LHS is asking, if I have to wait a week for it anyway.....
richhotrain snjroy I’ve read so many threads predicting the death of the LHS. I am lucky to have a job that allows me to travel a bit, and I have seen many LHS that seem to thrive, including the LHS of my own town. So, I suggest we combine our observations and identify what seems to make a successful LHS. I come at this from a different point of view, and that is, why do so many LHS fail. I used to have three of them within 15 minutes of my home in the southwest suburbs of Chicago, buit now all are gone. These were full service shops with discount prices, knowledgeable ownership and staff, and a well-stocked store. Now, the closest LHS is a good 30 minute trip each way, and I always call in advance because the availability of product is always in question. The main reason for closing is always the same. The rent is too high and getting higher. Rich
snjroy I’ve read so many threads predicting the death of the LHS. I am lucky to have a job that allows me to travel a bit, and I have seen many LHS that seem to thrive, including the LHS of my own town. So, I suggest we combine our observations and identify what seems to make a successful LHS.
I come at this from a different point of view, and that is, why do so many LHS fail.
I used to have three of them within 15 minutes of my home in the southwest suburbs of Chicago, buit now all are gone. These were full service shops with discount prices, knowledgeable ownership and staff, and a well-stocked store.
Now, the closest LHS is a good 30 minute trip each way, and I always call in advance because the availability of product is always in question.
The main reason for closing is always the same. The rent is too high and getting higher.
In otherwords, profit to business cost ratio is not good enough to stay in business, despite all the wondeful characteristics of many brick and mortor shops. And this echo's a theme we are seeing played out in shopping malls across America. They are closing at record rates because buying is shifting en-mass to online vendors who have a distinct advantage vs. the strictly local sales B&M shores. In the past couple years my local K-mart and now JC Penny closed down, just recent victims to the dying traditional retail sales model.
Like a few others, I have traveled alot to many cities and states and made it a point to visit 2 or 3 hobby shops on each trip, but IMO, those observations don't really seem as relevant as the online sales effect on B&M stores.
Sure, in past years, I could see what I thought made a good shop or not and many did go out of business over the past 20+ years. But I think online sales is making the biggest difference these days, and it can be seen in other kinds of products too.
So I think THE game changer for a successful hobby shop these days is having a good vibrant online sales presence.
My local hobby shop is Hobbytown in Carson City...30 miles away. There are no others in my area. Nearest otherwise...is Sacramento...150 miles away. The Hobbytown here has been around for nearly 20 years and seems to be doing well. The key thing to his longevity here, I believe, is that he stocks small selections of model railroading, model cars, planes ships, and rockets, but can order anything you want, but he has an extensive selection of radio control in cars and planes since that is what's most popular here in northern Nevada . He knows his customers and I see everyone leaving with a purchase in their hands when I stop in. Most of my needs going in there are for the spendy small things that are hobby specific.
Mark H
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
I'll echo what Howard said. Main Line Hobby Supply is just about as good as it gets for us in this neck of the woods.
The shop owners have their own building on a State highway in a very small town. Sounds like a bad location until you consider that it's centrally located, within easy reach of Chambersburg, PA, Hagerstown, MD, Martinsburg, WV, and Gettysburg, PA. It's a longer drive from places like Baltimore, Harrisburg, Cumberland, Winchester, Leesburg, or Washington DC, but most of the drive is through pleasant countryside, so it's not as bad as one might think. Within that area, Tommy Gilbert's (which has virtues of its own) is the only other truly full-service, well-stocked hobby shop for scale model trains. Pro Custom is also good, but their stock is more limited. I'm not counting tinplate specialists.
At Main Line, the person behind the counter is likely to be one of the owners. Staff is knowledgeable. If they don't know the answer, they will refer you to someone who does, rather than lead you astray. If the knowledgeable person isn't there, they'll tell you when he (or she) will be working next. Bonnie, one of the co owners, is generally as well informed as any man, so there have been a few old stick-in-the-mud types who have been taken by surprise and forced to reevaluate their old fashioned ideas about women in the hobby.
Every year in September they sponsor a weekend open house with special sales and promotions, plus layout tours hosted by customers who choose to be on the tour. Typically, twenty to thirty layouts of all sizes, gauges, and levels of completion are available.
The selection is broad and eclectic in the classic definition of the term: a diverse selection of products, tending towards the higher quality products, but with some items available to suit any pocketbook. There's a wide selection of detail parts and scratchbuilding supplies. If they don't have it, they'll gladly order it. And they do mail order, of course.
Maybe the best thing is the atmosphere, which I equate to Cheers. It's "where everybody knows your name."
If anybody else tried to establish a full-service hobby shop in this area, it would probably be a bad thing. I doubt that the area can support two hobby shops of this caliber, and a new shop would probably dilute Main Line's market while failing to be sufficient to support the newcomer.
Main Line's position is unique. I don't know whether this model would work everywhere, but many elements of Main Line's success are universal.