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Hi Everyone
I've recently bought some Proto Max Couplers for a decent price as I figured it was long overdue to change out my standard couplers on alot of my engines and cars seeing as most of them come with those brown plastic couplers i have in my hand on the first pic.
A few questions, the Kadee number 5 were out of stock and probably would be quite expensive to buy many of them so what is your opinion of these Walthers Proto Max Couplers? Im guessing got to be better than the stock couplers offered on many Athearn, Bachmann and Atlas...
Can these be used to replace the couplers on Kato's equipment? Their f40ph and bilevel commuter cars have a different coupler altogether.
What is that gold piece in the second picture and what is it used for?
Thanks,
Regg
Regg, your links are not working.
Yeah, bad links.
My guess is the Proto Max works anywhere a #5 does. They will be cheaper than Kadees, but that's probably in small packages. Get a pack with 50 pair or something and the price difference closes.
Obviously, if you need a coupler that requires other than a #5 equivalent, then you'll probably have to rely on Kadee, which is pretty darn reliable in general.
I just wish Kadee would make a #158 that fits the #714 draft gear for HOn3, so that Sergent couplers will quit tempting me with their promise of realistic draft gear slack, etc.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
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im not sure what is going on. Uploaded the pics from my phone to Flickr. And for some reason only the pic where the old couplers in my hand is showing and not the other two pics of the new Walthers Max Proto couplers are showing.
Bite the bullet and stick with Kadees. First, they are bullet proof. Second, they come in so many variations of shank, offset, etc. it is highly unlikely you will not be able to find one that fits whatever needs a coupler.
skagitrailbirdBite the bullet and stick with Kadees.
Good advice!
I have a coffee can full of the knock-offs (sleazy-mate; Yack Henrys) 95% of my equipment has Kadees, the other 5% is the Walthers ProtoMax which have recently become their OEM coupler and it is not a bad substitute.
One time I had a cut of cars on a grade and they were bunched up since the engine was on the downhill side. I left them parked this way for over a week and when I went to run them again all of the little finger springs (this is before they upgraded to the coil spring) had taken a set and had become worthless.
All the plastic knock-offs are junk in my opinion. Kadee is worth the investment.
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullmanI have a coffee can full of the knock-offs (sleazy-mate; Yack Henrys) 95% of my equipment has Kadees, the other 5% is the Walthers ProtoMax which have recently become their OEM coupler and it is not a bad substitute.
What!?? And waste a perfectly good coffee can?? I just toss 'em. There's not much sense for me to hang onto something I'll never use. And, as has been said earlier Kadees are bulletproof.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I can't fight the pack-rat in me Marlon.
You're right about tossing them. I wouldn't want to give them away to anybody, they wouldn't remain friends for very long...
Ed
I don't toss out my Protomax that came with some of my Walthers cars - AFAIK, they are the only KD clones that are metal and should be nearly as durable, but if you are buying packages of couplers to change out, put Kadee at the top of your list - after that it's which Kadee. The #5 is the traditional but I find that the whisker version #148 that doesn't use the bronze centering spring works better in many instances. If you prefer a closer to scale head, then go with Kadee #58 or whisker version 158.
You can save a little on cost by buying the bulk packs.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Proto Max couplers are functionally the equivalent of the Kadee #5. They look as if they're cast from the same type of metal. I've never experienced a break or other failure with Proto Max, but I only have a relative few of them that came on Walthers cars. Unlike plastic couplers, I see no reason to replace them unless you want a closer to scale head. If you can get them at a reduced price, so much the better.
Standard Kadee couplers work in any Kato locos I have, and in my sole example of a Kato freight car. Since the Proto Max apparently uses the same shank dimensions, anywhere a Kadee #5/148/58/158 or equivalent will fit a Proto Max should too.
Oh - don't throw out the plastic couplers until you remove the metal knuckle springs from the ones so equipped. The springs can be used as replacements on Kadees. Youll probably lose a few here and there, so it's good to have some extras.
Rob Spangler
It's like this. Kadee invented the HO knuckle coupler back in the '60s. It became the choice of all model railroaders. Kadee's patents expired in the 1990's, and a bunch of makers came out with clone couplers. The clones intermate with each other and with Kadee. By now pretty much all rolling stock comes equipped with a clone coupler of some brand or other. They work well enough that I leave them in place until they actually fail in service. A lot of my clones are still running. The ones that fail I replace with Kadee's, usually a #5. In the hobby shop, I can get Kadees for the same price as the clones, so why not get the best? Kadee sells 10 packs and 20 packs of #5s for $1 a coupler ($2 a pair) less draft gear, which is fine, you seldom need draft gear.
Some people replace all clone couplers with Kadee's on general principles. I don't bother, the clones are pretty good, and a lot of 'em work fine and last a long time.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
I use the Kadee #58, the smaller-head ones that are closer to scale size. I buy the bulk packs to get the best price, and because I just like keeping a supply on hand. My last two brand new locomotive purchases (a Bachmann and a Walthers Proto) both experienced coupler failure within a week, but, no problem, I just pulled out my Kadee box and replaced them.
I've got Kadee coupler gauges both in my workroom and next to my layout. Part of the installation procedure is to check each coupler with a guage. Skip that step at your own peril.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
While some go for the closer to scale head Kadee #58, some also like the traditional #5 because they are larger, they are less likely to come uncoupled due to mismatch in height or uneven track. I have a mix, many of my cars hae KD#5 and some have #58, such as ExactRail.
dstarr It's like this. Kadee invented the HO knuckle coupler back in the '60s. It became the choice of all model railroaders. Kadee's patents expired in the 1990's, and a bunch of makers came out with clone couplers. The clones intermate with each other and with Kadee. By now pretty much all rolling stock comes equipped with a clone coupler of some brand or other. They work well enough that I leave them in place until they actually fail in service. A lot of my clones are still running. The ones that fail I replace with Kadee's, usually a #5. In the hobby shop, I can get Kadees for the same price as the clones, so why not get the best? Kadee sells 10 packs and 20 packs of #5s for $1 a coupler ($2 a pair) less draft gear, which is fine, you seldom need draft gear. Some people replace all clone couplers with Kadee's on general principles. I don't bother, the clones are pretty good, and a lot of 'em work fine and last a long time.
Actually, Kadee invented their knuckle couplers in the mid-1950's. The magnetic ones came out in the early 1960s. The early ones had no lip on the inside of the knuckle, and were operated by a diamond-shaped ramp which when raised, forced pins on the knuckles apart.
I use the #153 "Semi-scale" head, short-shank "whisker" couplers almost exclusively now on the FHN since my minimum radius is 26" in the yard, the closer coupling distance looks better. The clones go straight to trash (they never have "scale" heads), along with plastic trucks/wheels.
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Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
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"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
I just found bulk Kadee's on ebay, a pack of 50 pair, at $1.37 per pair including shipping. This is well worth the effort to standardize your fleet with reliable and strong coupling. I replaced a lot of couplers with McHenry a few years ago, mainly Rivarossi passenger cars, but now plan to replace those with Kadee's. I have had a lot of failures with plastic couplers and will eventually replace ALL of them. To me this is one of those things that just isn't worth cutting cost on.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I bought the Proto Max couplers for under $25 for a bulk pack of 40 which is enough to do 20 cars. These are metal and look very similar to the Kadee #5. It's not going to be enough to replace all my rolling stock stock couplers but it will be enough for a 1/3 of my inventory. Which is enough for me at the moment. Again didn't have the money for a bulk pack of Kadee's at the time which I saw on Amazon for about $45. My LHS had these on sale and no Kadees in stock. Eventually when I buy again I will buy the Kadees.
I use Kadees uncoupling magnets, and one thing I've noticed with Kadee clones, the trip pin must be made out of a different alloy with a lower ferrous metal alloy content. This results in the coupler not swinging over as far, especially when using the delayed uncoupler magnets.
Medina1128 I use Kadees uncoupling magnets, and one thing I've noticed with Kadee clones, the trip pin must be made out of a different alloy with a lower ferrous metal alloy content. This results in the coupler not swinging over as far, especially when using the delayed uncoupler magnets.
I've noticed the same. not sure if is the material of the "trip pin' or a stronger centering spring that does this.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
MisterBeasley
Rich
Alton Junction
Regg05,
That price on Amazon sounds real high, unless it was for the bigger bulk pack of 40 pair or 50 pair.
FYI you can get bulk packs of Kadee #5 (20 pair) normally for about $22 at www.modeltrainstuff.com. the scale head #58 are a little higher at $26 for (20 pair). They are on sale right now for $20 and 25, respectively. Just sayin...
Mister B and Rich - The Dos Equis parady is hilarius! "Stay coupled my friends."
I don't change over to KaDee's till the old coupler breaks.I have some cars that still have their Accumates after 5 yeasrs of daily use.On the other hand if I am doing mounts to replace talgo couplers I usually use KaDees.
My motto when it comes to couplers is"If it ain't broke,don't fix it."
PM Railfan Mister B and Rich - The Dos Equis parady is hilarius! "Stay coupled my friends."
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
When I buy train stuff online, I just add a pack of 20 Kadees to the order, and save on the shipping and the tax.
By the way, what is the Kadee number for the close coupleing couplers for F units?
hobo9941 When I buy train stuff online, I just add a pack of 20 Kadees to the order, and save on the shipping and the tax. By the way, what is the Kadee number for the close coupleing couplers for F units?
Kadee #450 are the close coupling kits for Stewart F units. I'm not sure about other brands of F's. Genesis F's use a different coupler.
I did some searching and found the following comments about Genesis F units:
the Biggest problem I have had with coupler replacement on these engines is the fact that the draft gear box is set up for the Mchenry couplers that come with the engine these couplers are adaquate for a home layout where train lengths don't exceed ten cars or more on club length 20 plus car trains they are a disaster The plastic McHenry coupler Shank is .038 thick a KD #43 or #5 with the spring is .048 a 143 or 148 whisker is .050 thick you do the math in order for either KD to center properly material must be evenly removed from the Hat section center of the lower cover to just about flush with the edges of the cover If it isin't when the flat screw is torqued down to prevent the whole draft gear box from moving the coupler wont move. Backing off the screw will allow the coupler to move but then so will the draft gear box it is held in place by a small pin in the top half of the draft gear box and a corresponding hole in the rear of the copupler pad on the frame and to add to that the whole coupler assembly sets about .013 too low and prevents it from going into a NMRA coupler height gage One way around this is to use a #158 scale head in the front and a #153 short shank in the rear (shank thickness is still .050 but the head is smaller) It still wont enter the gauge but it will be a smidge higher and you can bend up the gladhand to prevent it from snagging track magnets Because I have access to a milling machine I got real anal and disassembled all the components from the frame and removed .020 from both coupler pads You'd think that Athearn would realize that some people would want to use other couplers that the Mchenry's that they supply and adjust the draft gear boxes accordingly
these couplers are adaquate for a home layout where train lengths don't exceed ten cars or more on club length 20 plus car trains they are a disaster The plastic McHenry coupler Shank is .038 thick a KD #43 or #5 with the spring is .048 a 143 or 148 whisker is .050 thick you do the math in order for either KD to center properly material must be evenly removed from the Hat section center of the lower cover to just about flush with the edges of the cover If it isin't when the flat screw is torqued down to prevent the whole draft gear box from moving the coupler wont move. Backing off the screw will allow the coupler to move but then so will the draft gear box it is held in place by a small pin in the top half of the draft gear box and a corresponding hole in the rear of the copupler pad on the frame and to add to that the whole coupler assembly sets about .013 too low and prevents it from going into a NMRA coupler height gage One way around this is to use a #158 scale head in the front and a #153 short shank in the rear (shank thickness is still .050 but the head is smaller) It still wont enter the gauge but it will be a smidge higher and you can bend up the gladhand to prevent it from snagging track magnets Because I have access to a milling machine I got real anal and disassembled all the components from the frame and removed .020 from both coupler pads You'd think that Athearn would realize that some people would want to use other couplers that the Mchenry's that they supply and adjust the draft gear boxes accordingly
Here are a couple more comments on Kadee's for Genesis F's:
[quote]I use Kadee 143s with the whisker centering springs
in the stock Genesis pockets with good results[/quot]
Use #153 couplers in the #252 box...this box is for mounts with limited space.
I'm pretty snooty when it comes to couplers. It doesn't go on the layout until it has a KD. Most of the couplers that come with either the kits or the RTR are junk IMHO. I used to use #5s but have since switched to the 148s, the whisker equivalent of the #5. Buy them in bulk packs of 25 or 50 pair and you'll save a lot.
I'm snooty too, but I can't afford to replace all of my plastic clones at once. Since I'm not made of money, my plan is to replace couplers over time. Any kit that I build gets KD's right off the bat. Cars that come RTR plastic clones get replaced first with problematic couplers and hopefully eventually all of them will be.
Thankfully, many RTR cars I have bought in the past 5 years come with Kadee's now, such as ExactRail or Intermountain. Unfortunately Athearn/Genesis and Atlas - two of our leading MR manufacturers, still come with inferior quality plastic clones that will need to be replaced. I've had some of those on my D&RGW SD engines display poor characteristics in the limited time I've operated them.
I have on hand right now several bulk packages of KD's from KD#5 (standard with bronze springs), #58 (scale head with bronze spring), and #148 (whisker). I just draw from those bit by bit until I have to buy another package. The only reason why I have the #58 bulk pack is I picked it up at close out at a train show, and the #5 bulk pack have had for some years.
That said, the couplers with the bronze springs are certainly useful so what I do is try them out first, and if they work smoothly, they get used. If not, I go to the whisker couplers as they seem to be a bit more forgiving or flexable. Eventually when the bronze spring versions get used up, I will probably only buy whiskers going forward - unless I get a bulkpack of bronze spring cheap.
riogrande5761 I'm snooty too, but I can't afford to replace all of my plastic clones at once. Since I'm not made of money, my plan is to replace couplers over time. Any kit that I build gets KD's right off the bat. Cars that come RTR plastic clones get replaced first with problematic couplers and hopefully eventually all of them will be.
I've gone the other route. Much of my freight car fleet is Accurail and some lower end RTR. Saving money on the car itself allows me to add KDs and Proto 2000 wheelsets. I sacrifice some detail but to me if it operates well and looks OK, that's my definition of good enough.
I may have overstated it when I said it doesn't go on the layout until it has a KD. That applies to new additions. Before I adopted the KD only policy, I built up my fleet using a variety of equipment using whatever it came with. I plan to eventually go through the whole fleet and install KDs, but until then, I've adopted a zero tolerence policy for Brand X couplers. If they fail once to couple or uncouple, I stop what I'm doing and take it straight to the workbench were it immediately gets a KD.
I experinemnted briefly with the 158s but I didn't think they were quite as reliable as the 148s. I've since replace them with the 148s and rather than discard the 158s, I will put those on the passenger cars which don't see as much switching.