Hey guys. I guess this is going to be more of a rant but I believe I might have a good point. Today's model deisel locomotives with DCC and sound cost close to three hundred dollars minus any deals a dealer might give. While these engines have great sound and excellent detail they also have some cheap details which I do not think are worth the three hundred dollars we have to fork over for them.
My case is my Athearn Genesis SD70ACe. It has excellent detail and the sound is awesome. The trouble is the handrails are so flimsy and so are other parts such as the drawbar cut lever. I received my first ACe with a bent front handrail. My current one came to me with a rear drawbar cut lever practically hanging. I used some glue to try strengthening it. It lasted for a few months but tonight after handling the engine I noticed it broke all the way off much to my anguish. I cannot glue it back on and while I tried doing that, one of the grill screens on the back of the model popped off making things even worse. I'm tired of spending so much money on these flawed models.
Some modelers have complained in the past about handrails and other details being too thick when compared to the prototype. I feel like this has lead to the manufacturers making everything so cheaply thin that it breaks easily. I would be more than willing to spend more money on something which won't break so easily let alone have flaws in the paint as well.
I'm sure this has been brought up before somewhere in this forum and I'm just adding negative vibes. All I am is a fellow model railroader who wishes the hobby would bring me joy and not anguish. I'm just so disappointed that this has happened to my favorite locomotive.
They're not cheaply thin. They're more expensively thin.
I'm completely serious. Finer work is more expensive, but also more delicate. Not sure why this didn't seem obvious to you.
You sound like you should be shopping at MTH. I don't normally refer people there, but if you want gnarly big, beefy handrails, there you go.
For models with protoypically fine details, you do have to learn to handle them carefully -- they usually aren't grab and go. Which is not to say that some of the issues you identified could not be defects, but due care has to be taken.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I tend to agree (sort of) with the OP. Since returning to the hobby actively 4 years ago and building a sizable layout, I began to look into locomotives and rolling stock to add to my collection of several decades. At that point I was like a kid in the candy shop, everything looked grand, but then the reality set in when I bought an Athearn SD60. Right out of the package the railings on one side fell off and the other broke on the end with minor handling. I then bought another one about 2 months later giving the benefit of the doubt by writing off the faults of the first one as a defective locomotive. Similar problems. I then went and got a Bachmann 2-6-6-2. Absolutely beautifully detailed engine...not a bad runner. I've resigned it's life to sitting on a shelf as everytime I pick it up, something else falls off...like my two SD60's. I bought a pair Bowser Alco C630's a little over a year ago and they have been on the layout since, after I realized their fragility. I no longer buy new. To complete my Reading fleet, I've been getting BB and older Atlas off of Ebay. Also to get a few very specific steam locomotives which are made commercially I've opted to kitbash several old Mantuas.
One other issue...I don't like to buy in supporting the economy of another country.
My apologies if it appears that I took over this thread...was/is not my intent.
Mark H
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
This topic comes up on here from time to time, and it is a bit of a delicate situation - figuratively and literally.
Obviously no one wants to say anything rude about someone they don't even know, so as politely as possible, some speak up about details being fragile, and such.
The simple truth is this, for whatever reasons, some people have trouble handling complex fragile models, especially in scales like HO, where the models are big enough to have some weight, but can be detailed enough to be very fragile.
Without meaning any disrepect to anyone, the simple truth is some models are made more like rugged toys, and others more like fine museum pieces.
It is my view that those models made more like fine museum pieces are simply not intended for lots of "handling", by anyone - put them on the layout and leave them there - that is why they have wheels and motor, to move around under their own power.
Obviously they have to be handled some, but less is better.
If you want or need more "rugged" models, they are out there. One poster mentioned MTH, and it is generally true. They have heavy, strong die cast boilers with much of the detail cast in place and much of it somewhat oversized for strength - like overly thick running boards.
On the other hand, the Spectrum 2-6-6-2 mentioned in another post has very fine details, and can be hard to handle - but its "scale" appearance is very good.
I have four of those Spectrum 2-6-6-2's - never lost a part yet - what am I doing differently?
I would say buy whatever brands/models you have the best luck with, but understand - the more detail, and the more true to scale that detail is, the more fragile it will be.
That is not a function of models being "cheaply made" - it is a function of making parts at least close to their proper scale size and thickness.
Sheldon
I'm not a fan of the Atlas HH660's hand rails (and other Atlas locos)...
They're ABS plastic, I think, but they're SO flexy and bendy that they're very easy to break at their bases even if you're generally careful. Wire would be much better. I've seen this particular complaint online, before.
You can be as careful as you want to be with details, but the lst (or 2nd) time you have to fish something stalled, derailed, whatever from hidden trackage you're going to lose something sometimes.
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Hey, have I got the answer for you! Do you want a tough model? Do you want all-metal handrails that won't warp and take paint well? Do you want prototypical accuracy and detail parts that don't fall off? It's very simple: just buy brass! Yes, brass locos have all-metal construction that is very durable. Detail parts aren't glued on, they are soldered on. Same for the handrails; being made of brass, they don't shrink, warp, or break.
Of course, you'll pay 2 to 4 times the cost of a plastic model, it won't have sound and it probably won't even have a DCC socket. But brass locos can take some rough and tumble handling without damage.
Or, you could just stop treating your $300 Genesis locos like they are $20 Tycos.
Paul A. Cutler III
For decades, literally, the MR letter column was populated with letters complaining about oversize details.
Now you know why all the manufacturers' reps are drinking heavily as soon as the dealers' room closes at NMRA conventions.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Also, let's not forget inflation; that $25 American Flyer GP7 of 1956 would cost $217.59 in 2014 dollars.
I think what the OP is trying to say is that models cost more today, in part because they are more complex with fine detail. Yet, these expensive, finely detailed models, are more delicate because the finer detail is scale plastic, and it easily bends, breaks, and falls off the model as it travels along the layout.
To that assertion, I agree.
Of course, the naysayers picture a bunch of fat old men with stubby fingers carelessly handling these time bombs. Hey, I may be old, but I am not fat, and I don't have stubby fingers, and I am not careless. Yet, I have a small box of parts that have fallen off these models, while other models sit on the layout with damaged or missing parts.
There is no avoiding this unless you put these expensive, fragile models in a display case and leave them there.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainOf course, the naysayers picture a bunch of fat old men with stubby fingers carelessly handling these time bombs. Hey, I may be old, but I am not fat, and I don't have stubby fingers, and I am not careless. Yet, I have a small box of parts that have fallen off these models, while other models sit on the layout with damaged or missing parts.
I fully agree and will add there are forums that has several dozen topics complaining about broken details,chip paint,detail parts laying in the locomotive's tray,warp handrails etc..
We no longer have models..We have musuem pieces that should be placed in a display case or left in their box to look at.
A good sneeze from 2' away just might cause a tiny detail part to go flying across the room.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It became necessary to the majority of model railroaders that their rolling stock and locos be very finely detailed. However, they are unwilling to super detail their stuff on there own. So, we have all (not me) demanded that this be what the manufacturers produced. Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
There is another aspect we seem to be missing. Most items are made "cheaper" (not less expensive) than in the past. Plastics are thinner for cost savings. Just pick up a plastic water bottle made today and think about one 5 years ago. They are said to be "better for the environment" since they use less plastic, but in actuality, they use less material, and save money. My daughter's toys are cheaply made - and things break even when one is careful.
Yes some of the finely detailed parts are easily broken (even when handled well - let us not assume people are tossing the trains around), but at the same time, manufacturing is always finding cost reduction methods, and one of those methods is making items that tend to break faster than in the past.
Yes, it's market demand driving detail intensity here. It's what a lot of folks want and are willing to pay for. But be careful with what you ask for, to revise an old saying.
Anyone buying quality models now should anticipate sticking some things back on and be careful to watch for things coming loose and where they land with scale models. But I think consumers also demand no glue marks, so there is also pressure at the factories to use as little as possible to avoid those. That's why many things pop off easily.
The solution? Stick them back on securely.
Come on, they already did all the heavy lifting for you in delivering a finished RTR model. If you're intimidated by the need for a detail fix from time to time, you're in the wrong niche (think Lionel instead) or the wrong hobby entirely.
Of course I am getting old, I no longer am in business and I have revealed some of my obsolete thinking, I guess!
The number one reason things are more expensive is of course inflation. For an apples to apples comparison, a good quality DC loco today sells for about what it did when I got into the hobby in the 1970s if you adjust for inflation and I think for the most part they are a little better product. I do agree with you about the handrails. Most of my diesels are E and F units so that is not an issue, but I do have some RS3s and GP7s on the roster and I would prefer meatier if less prototypical handrails. I've never been enamored with ultra fine details. I'm perfectly happy with molded on hand grabs on my freight cars. One less thing to break.
My peeve is when I pay top dollar and don't get top quality in return. If I pay $300-400 for a loco it should run perfectly right out of the box. I shouldn't have to make adjustments to it to get it to do what it is supposed to do and I find that is not always the case. Ditto for when I shell out $60-70 for an RTR passenger car that can't negotiate a 30 inch radius curve without derailing. I've got about five of them on the shelf waiting to have the trucks fixed or replaced.
My guess is that the OP started this thread less concerned about rising costs and inflation and more concerned about the increasing fragility of highly detailed models.
My main concern is to get the model that I want. If I want a Santa Fe 4-8-4 with sound, that's what I am going to buy, expensive or not, highly detailed or not, assuming that it is available. I don't sit around wishing that someone would produce a Santa Fe 4-8-4 with more detail. I'll bet that a lot of modelers feel the same way. This perceived demand for more fine scale detail is just that IMHO - perceived.
NP2626 To an extent, by what we’re saying, it would seem that manufacturers care more about reducing their cost to produce, desire to charge all that the market will bear for their products and not care all that much about their product's quality! This last two premises are diametrically the opposite of my business plan, when I was a manufacturer! I wanted the quality of the products I produced to be first rate and mine where, as that was what brought my customers back, time after time. I had to produce competitively priced products, because if I didn’t, my competition would. Of course I am getting old, I no longer am in business and I have revealed some of my obsolete thinking, I guess!
I second everything you just wrote. I think the quality of merchandise in this hobby as a whole is atrocious and one of the reasons is that we as consumers are too willing to accept it. There are manufacturers that consistently produce top quality merchandise but it is my experience these are the exceptions. There is nothing that makes me madder than to pay top dollar for second rate quality. It is the reason I would not recommend this hobby to anyone else. I have too much invested in it now to just walk away from it, but if I knew way back then what I know now, I'm not sure I would get into this hobby. I definitely would not jump into it to the extent I am now invested in it.
The average model today is MUCH better than when I entered the hobby around 40 years back. Today's product is likely to have better paint, machined wheelsets instead of cast metal or plastic, plus Kadee or compatible couplers - even if it's otherwise the same model from way back then. Many newer models are highly detailed, and hence more fragile, but the fragility isn't indicative of a lack of qaulity.
For a case in point, here's an old Athearn GP7 that's been in my possession over 30 years. It inherently retains the too-wide hoods that once cleared Athearn's oversized motor, and there's only so much that could be done to rectify all the incorrectly shaped and otherwise mediocre detail cast into the shell. Back when this was about the only starting point for a detail project, I did what I could to create a closer representation of an actual locomotive, in the process adding many fine parts that made the loco far more fragile than it started.
The original mechanism ran, but not really that well. I installed a Mashima can motor, replaced the trucks, and added machined nickel silver wheelsets to improve electrical pickup. I hard-wired the trucks and motor connections to eliminate the electrical failures possible where the truck bolsters rub against the frame.
Today, all these improvements can be had on a factory model (here a GP9 insteadd of a 7, but close enough for discussion purposes). The shell has much better proportions, and even if we ignore the prototype-specific details it would make a better starting point than the old model ever could. A can motor and machined wheelsets are standard.
I did have to track down some electrical gremlins caused by bad wiring connections, something about which I griped a bit, but there was much less work involved in such tuneup than with the older model, which I had to disassemble and rebuild from the ground up.
With the additional parts, paint, and decals, the old loco cost nearly as much in the late 1980s as the Genesis non-sound unit did in 2013. That's not adjusting for inflation, and not considering a value placed on my time. With that frame of reference, I have a hard time not seeing the new stuff as better. The point of comparison to a Genesis product being a rebuilt and detailed blue box loco, not one that's stock .
We still have manufacturers providing basic models with few add-on details (e.g. Walthers Trainline, Bachmann), which are perhaps more robust than something like an Athearn RTR or Genesis offering. Those are more direct comparisons to the locos the hobby used to have as the default choice outside of brass.
Rob Spangler
Todays models are not to be handled roughly, that being said I am surprised at how durable they are having a very detailed car by Tichy (or someone who used their molds like Red caboose), it was in a box that I thought was empty and it came tumbling out and hit me then the concrete, very little repair was needed except for a bent grab and a dislodged break wheel.
Recent Athearn engines have very fine handrails with small holes that the supports fit into. They do seem to pop out pretty easily. On my MP-15 I finally took a toothpick and used some glue (I think 'tacky glue' but I'm not sure now) to hold them in place.
No offence meant to the OP, but maybe you would be happier in one of the larger scales like S or O, where the models are a little more durable. On30 and O "hi-rail" (1:48 scale models running on 3-rail track - see link below) are both growing parts of the model railroad hobby.
https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau
wjstix ... No offence meant to the OP, but maybe you would be happier in one of the larger scales like S or O, where the models are a little more durable. On30 and O "hi-rail" (1:48 scale models running on 3-rail track - see link below) are both growing parts of the model railroad hobby. https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau
...
Some models in S have thicker or cast on handrails and other details.
But others have delicate details that have to be handled just as carefully as HO.
I recently had to reglue a grabiron that was either broken off when the car was put in the foam packaging or when I took it out. I also had to replace and touchup paint one that was missing.
Paul
NP2626Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed!
If you want Athearn Blue Box kits go to any hobby shop or train show; they're still out there in scads.Which is exactly and precisely why Athearn stopped making kits and went exclusively to ready to run; RTR sold, kits didn't.
rrebellTodays models are not to be handled roughly, that being said I am surprised at how durable they are having a very detailed car by Tichy (or someone who used their molds like Red caboose), it was in a box that I thought was empty and it came tumbling out and hit me then the concrete, very little repair was needed except for a bent grab and a dislodged break wheel.
One can not blame "rough handling" when models come with warp handrails,tiny parts laying it the car or locomotive's tray.There are countless topics on several forums that mention QA/QC problems including parts falling off while the engine is being ran.
While I fully agree today's models demands a light touch but, I'll will maintain they have become to fragile and even adding KD couplers is a high risk move even when using a foam holder..
Bayfield Transfer Railway NP2626 Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed! If you want Athearn Blue Box kits go to any hobby shop or train show; they're still out there in scads.Which is exactly and precisely why Athearn stopped making kits and went exclusively to ready to run; RTR sold, kits didn't.
NP2626 Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed!
wjstix No offence meant to the OP, but maybe you would be happier in one of the larger scales like S or O, where the models are a little more durable. On30 and O "hi-rail" (1:48 scale models running on 3-rail track - see link below) are both growing parts of the model railroad hobby. https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau
If I read the OP correctly, the only part he describes as being a problem after handling was the cut lever that was defective from the start and finally broke after being repaired. He mentioned a bent handrail and a grill that popped off. Those all sound like factory defects to me......not owner mishandling.
Factories try to engineer the fine parts to press fit. They don't use glue because the hand built nature of these models would result in glue spots everywhere. They don't do much soldering of connections anymore, due to bad soldering jobs. Press fit parts fall off sometimes, clamped wires come loose sometimes. These are necessary evils of the manufacturing process.
I agree with the OPs frustration, however. There should at least be some way to return the product and get a replacement. Sometimes, I think manufacturers use their customers as their quality control department, they either fix the defects themselves or send it back...if the problems even bother them enough.
So OP, take it back from where it came and see what the dealer will do for you. You paying $300 and the company/dealer wanting you to be their unpaid QC employee is a bit of double dipping that the the customer shouldn't have to tolerate.
- Douglas
Many manufacturers have responded to the desire by many model train fans for more finely detailed models in RTR form; this is a good thing IMO, as many of us are not steady of hand and eyesight to do high quality fine detailed work. I do work on kits but find I am pretty ham handed for example so the really fine stuff often results in frustration and things messed up.
Much of the products fine details, are by nature, fragile - which is the down side to the high level of detail, and require careful handling. It's also true the some details detatch and may require re-gluing by the hobbyist - which shouldn't be too major a problem for many.
Now if the OP, who hasn't responded back in this topic so far, finds the fragile nature of many newer detailed models unacceptable, there are some decent quality HO models he can consider, such as Atlas Trainman, or even some of the Atlas standard line loco's - which seem to have a decent level of fine detail but are a little less prone to breakage than some of the other brands.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983