The fragile handrails and details come from trying to equil brass model detailing with plastic, just does not work well. Just try to dust a model like this. Atleast if you bend a brass handrail, a little gentle pressure will return it back to normal shape. Of coarse a brass version of a diesel today will run you darn near $1000 per engine. I remember when I moved to mostly all steam in my mid teens. My choices were Mantua or Bowser diecast and the latter in kit form. Both needed extra detailing to look decent. Then you have Rivarossi, looked nice but other than the Heisler had pizza cutter flangers and a jack rabbit 3 pole motor. Then you have the choice I made, brass imports. But back then you didnt return it cause it ran crappy. You spent time at your workbench tearing it down and solving why it ran that way and fixing it. Yes back in those days of blue box engines, brass engines ect, we built kits and solved why an engine ran like crap. Now we just want to send it back and many times thats the only answer with all the electronics they have, no spare parts from the manufacture of the model. I repair trains for a couple hobby shops, I absolutly hate dealing with newer models, so fragile and complex to take appart. Three screws and I can remove the superstructure from my PFM/United brass ATSF 2-8-0, or any brass steamer for that matter. Now I have full access to the drive for service. I have owned newer P2K steamers, to fragile and I had axle cracking letting the drivers get out of quarter, similar to the cracked gears in the diesels. My 40+year old brass doesnt have that issue, just a new motor to replace the weak open frame, although I can replace the magnets in those as well. Quality control is how can we make this as cheap as we can and folks wont complain to loudly, thus maximizing profits. It is said in China they say "Nothing personal....its only business." My favorite tables at any train show are the estate sales of modelers that have passed on. They are a treasure trove of older kits, brass engines and models that I hunt for. As I find items I want in my collection of old magazines and Walthers catalogs, I keep a list with me for the next show. And that is what keeps it fun, the thrill of the hunt and excitement of finding an item from days gone by. Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
BRAKIE Athearn has stated BB kits was not selling and they had to go to the current market demand. You can find this in their Face Book blog or whatever face book pages is called. You will need to look it up but,its there.
You can find this in their Face Book blog or whatever face book pages is called. You will need to look it up but,its there.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
slamminI’ve never seen any information on how well Athearn’s BB Locos sold and I’d like to see any information you might have
Athearn has stated BB kits was not selling and they had to go to the current market demand.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NP2626 "I’ve never seen any information on how well Athearn’s BB Locos sold and I’d like to see any information you might have, proving your point."
I've been modeling in HO off and on since the late 50's. While I don't have any sales figures for blue box locos, way back then, Athearn blue box locos were the hobby standard, unless you could afford brass imports. For essentially the same money as Tyco/Mantua, Life Like, Cox and others charged, Athearn provided engine that ran good, had decent detail and you could work on them. They weren't rivited together like most of the competetion. I find todays dcc/sound equiped diesels a joy to own. I've never experienced quality troubles right out of the box. I like to do a little "tinkering" and realize I need to be careful when handeling them. As stated, there are lesser detail, less expensive models available.
NP2626 wjstix No offence meant to the OP, but maybe you would be happier in one of the larger scales like S or O, where the models are a little more durable. On30 and O "hi-rail" (1:48 scale models running on 3-rail track - see link below) are both growing parts of the model railroad hobby. https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau I find the above post to be somewhat short sighted thinking! Is this suggestion to switch scales to models which are more robustly made a statement that as HO modelers we must adapt to poorly built/engineered models?
wjstix No offence meant to the OP, but maybe you would be happier in one of the larger scales like S or O, where the models are a little more durable. On30 and O "hi-rail" (1:48 scale models running on 3-rail track - see link below) are both growing parts of the model railroad hobby. https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau
No offence meant to the OP, but maybe you would be happier in one of the larger scales like S or O, where the models are a little more durable. On30 and O "hi-rail" (1:48 scale models running on 3-rail track - see link below) are both growing parts of the model railroad hobby.
https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau
No, it's saying there's really nothing wrong with the models in HO, but that it's just a fact that some people are better working with very delicate things than others.
We all have strengths and weaknesses. I think I'm pretty good doing scenery and building and decorating kits, but I'm not great with trackwork. I appreciate the skill of people who can hand-lay track, but it's not something I think I'd ever be able to do....so I use Kato Unitrack, which works very well for me.
Many manufacturers have responded to the desire by many model train fans for more finely detailed models in RTR form; this is a good thing IMO, as many of us are not steady of hand and eyesight to do high quality fine detailed work. I do work on kits but find I am pretty ham handed for example so the really fine stuff often results in frustration and things messed up.
Much of the products fine details, are by nature, fragile - which is the down side to the high level of detail, and require careful handling. It's also true the some details detatch and may require re-gluing by the hobbyist - which shouldn't be too major a problem for many.
Now if the OP, who hasn't responded back in this topic so far, finds the fragile nature of many newer detailed models unacceptable, there are some decent quality HO models he can consider, such as Atlas Trainman, or even some of the Atlas standard line loco's - which seem to have a decent level of fine detail but are a little less prone to breakage than some of the other brands.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
If I read the OP correctly, the only part he describes as being a problem after handling was the cut lever that was defective from the start and finally broke after being repaired. He mentioned a bent handrail and a grill that popped off. Those all sound like factory defects to me......not owner mishandling.
Factories try to engineer the fine parts to press fit. They don't use glue because the hand built nature of these models would result in glue spots everywhere. They don't do much soldering of connections anymore, due to bad soldering jobs. Press fit parts fall off sometimes, clamped wires come loose sometimes. These are necessary evils of the manufacturing process.
I agree with the OPs frustration, however. There should at least be some way to return the product and get a replacement. Sometimes, I think manufacturers use their customers as their quality control department, they either fix the defects themselves or send it back...if the problems even bother them enough.
So OP, take it back from where it came and see what the dealer will do for you. You paying $300 and the company/dealer wanting you to be their unpaid QC employee is a bit of double dipping that the the customer shouldn't have to tolerate.
- Douglas
Bayfield Transfer Railway NP2626 Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed! If you want Athearn Blue Box kits go to any hobby shop or train show; they're still out there in scads.Which is exactly and precisely why Athearn stopped making kits and went exclusively to ready to run; RTR sold, kits didn't.
NP2626 Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed!
If you want Athearn Blue Box kits go to any hobby shop or train show; they're still out there in scads.Which is exactly and precisely why Athearn stopped making kits and went exclusively to ready to run; RTR sold, kits didn't.
rrebellTodays models are not to be handled roughly, that being said I am surprised at how durable they are having a very detailed car by Tichy (or someone who used their molds like Red caboose), it was in a box that I thought was empty and it came tumbling out and hit me then the concrete, very little repair was needed except for a bent grab and a dislodged break wheel.
One can not blame "rough handling" when models come with warp handrails,tiny parts laying it the car or locomotive's tray.There are countless topics on several forums that mention QA/QC problems including parts falling off while the engine is being ran.
While I fully agree today's models demands a light touch but, I'll will maintain they have become to fragile and even adding KD couplers is a high risk move even when using a foam holder..
NP2626Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed!
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
wjstix ... No offence meant to the OP, but maybe you would be happier in one of the larger scales like S or O, where the models are a little more durable. On30 and O "hi-rail" (1:48 scale models running on 3-rail track - see link below) are both growing parts of the model railroad hobby. https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau
...
Some models in S have thicker or cast on handrails and other details.
But others have delicate details that have to be handled just as carefully as HO.
I recently had to reglue a grabiron that was either broken off when the car was put in the foam packaging or when I took it out. I also had to replace and touchup paint one that was missing.
Paul
Recent Athearn engines have very fine handrails with small holes that the supports fit into. They do seem to pop out pretty easily. On my MP-15 I finally took a toothpick and used some glue (I think 'tacky glue' but I'm not sure now) to hold them in place.
Todays models are not to be handled roughly, that being said I am surprised at how durable they are having a very detailed car by Tichy (or someone who used their molds like Red caboose), it was in a box that I thought was empty and it came tumbling out and hit me then the concrete, very little repair was needed except for a bent grab and a dislodged break wheel.
The average model today is MUCH better than when I entered the hobby around 40 years back. Today's product is likely to have better paint, machined wheelsets instead of cast metal or plastic, plus Kadee or compatible couplers - even if it's otherwise the same model from way back then. Many newer models are highly detailed, and hence more fragile, but the fragility isn't indicative of a lack of qaulity.
For a case in point, here's an old Athearn GP7 that's been in my possession over 30 years. It inherently retains the too-wide hoods that once cleared Athearn's oversized motor, and there's only so much that could be done to rectify all the incorrectly shaped and otherwise mediocre detail cast into the shell. Back when this was about the only starting point for a detail project, I did what I could to create a closer representation of an actual locomotive, in the process adding many fine parts that made the loco far more fragile than it started.
The original mechanism ran, but not really that well. I installed a Mashima can motor, replaced the trucks, and added machined nickel silver wheelsets to improve electrical pickup. I hard-wired the trucks and motor connections to eliminate the electrical failures possible where the truck bolsters rub against the frame.
Today, all these improvements can be had on a factory model (here a GP9 insteadd of a 7, but close enough for discussion purposes). The shell has much better proportions, and even if we ignore the prototype-specific details it would make a better starting point than the old model ever could. A can motor and machined wheelsets are standard.
I did have to track down some electrical gremlins caused by bad wiring connections, something about which I griped a bit, but there was much less work involved in such tuneup than with the older model, which I had to disassemble and rebuild from the ground up.
With the additional parts, paint, and decals, the old loco cost nearly as much in the late 1980s as the Genesis non-sound unit did in 2013. That's not adjusting for inflation, and not considering a value placed on my time. With that frame of reference, I have a hard time not seeing the new stuff as better. The point of comparison to a Genesis product being a rebuilt and detailed blue box loco, not one that's stock .
We still have manufacturers providing basic models with few add-on details (e.g. Walthers Trainline, Bachmann), which are perhaps more robust than something like an Athearn RTR or Genesis offering. Those are more direct comparisons to the locos the hobby used to have as the default choice outside of brass.
Rob Spangler
NP2626 To an extent, by what we’re saying, it would seem that manufacturers care more about reducing their cost to produce, desire to charge all that the market will bear for their products and not care all that much about their product's quality! This last two premises are diametrically the opposite of my business plan, when I was a manufacturer! I wanted the quality of the products I produced to be first rate and mine where, as that was what brought my customers back, time after time. I had to produce competitively priced products, because if I didn’t, my competition would. Of course I am getting old, I no longer am in business and I have revealed some of my obsolete thinking, I guess!
Of course I am getting old, I no longer am in business and I have revealed some of my obsolete thinking, I guess!
I second everything you just wrote. I think the quality of merchandise in this hobby as a whole is atrocious and one of the reasons is that we as consumers are too willing to accept it. There are manufacturers that consistently produce top quality merchandise but it is my experience these are the exceptions. There is nothing that makes me madder than to pay top dollar for second rate quality. It is the reason I would not recommend this hobby to anyone else. I have too much invested in it now to just walk away from it, but if I knew way back then what I know now, I'm not sure I would get into this hobby. I definitely would not jump into it to the extent I am now invested in it.
My guess is that the OP started this thread less concerned about rising costs and inflation and more concerned about the increasing fragility of highly detailed models.
My main concern is to get the model that I want. If I want a Santa Fe 4-8-4 with sound, that's what I am going to buy, expensive or not, highly detailed or not, assuming that it is available. I don't sit around wishing that someone would produce a Santa Fe 4-8-4 with more detail. I'll bet that a lot of modelers feel the same way. This perceived demand for more fine scale detail is just that IMHO - perceived.
Rich
Alton Junction
The number one reason things are more expensive is of course inflation. For an apples to apples comparison, a good quality DC loco today sells for about what it did when I got into the hobby in the 1970s if you adjust for inflation and I think for the most part they are a little better product. I do agree with you about the handrails. Most of my diesels are E and F units so that is not an issue, but I do have some RS3s and GP7s on the roster and I would prefer meatier if less prototypical handrails. I've never been enamored with ultra fine details. I'm perfectly happy with molded on hand grabs on my freight cars. One less thing to break.
My peeve is when I pay top dollar and don't get top quality in return. If I pay $300-400 for a loco it should run perfectly right out of the box. I shouldn't have to make adjustments to it to get it to do what it is supposed to do and I find that is not always the case. Ditto for when I shell out $60-70 for an RTR passenger car that can't negotiate a 30 inch radius curve without derailing. I've got about five of them on the shelf waiting to have the trucks fixed or replaced.
Yes, it's market demand driving detail intensity here. It's what a lot of folks want and are willing to pay for. But be careful with what you ask for, to revise an old saying.
Anyone buying quality models now should anticipate sticking some things back on and be careful to watch for things coming loose and where they land with scale models. But I think consumers also demand no glue marks, so there is also pressure at the factories to use as little as possible to avoid those. That's why many things pop off easily.
The solution? Stick them back on securely.
Come on, they already did all the heavy lifting for you in delivering a finished RTR model. If you're intimidated by the need for a detail fix from time to time, you're in the wrong niche (think Lionel instead) or the wrong hobby entirely.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
There is another aspect we seem to be missing. Most items are made "cheaper" (not less expensive) than in the past. Plastics are thinner for cost savings. Just pick up a plastic water bottle made today and think about one 5 years ago. They are said to be "better for the environment" since they use less plastic, but in actuality, they use less material, and save money. My daughter's toys are cheaply made - and things break even when one is careful.
Yes some of the finely detailed parts are easily broken (even when handled well - let us not assume people are tossing the trains around), but at the same time, manufacturing is always finding cost reduction methods, and one of those methods is making items that tend to break faster than in the past.
It became necessary to the majority of model railroaders that their rolling stock and locos be very finely detailed. However, they are unwilling to super detail their stuff on there own. So, we have all (not me) demanded that this be what the manufacturers produced. Now we (including me, even though I was happy with the Athearn and MDC Roundhouse Blue Box type stuff) have to lay in that bed!
richhotrainOf course, the naysayers picture a bunch of fat old men with stubby fingers carelessly handling these time bombs. Hey, I may be old, but I am not fat, and I don't have stubby fingers, and I am not careless. Yet, I have a small box of parts that have fallen off these models, while other models sit on the layout with damaged or missing parts.
I fully agree and will add there are forums that has several dozen topics complaining about broken details,chip paint,detail parts laying in the locomotive's tray,warp handrails etc..
We no longer have models..We have musuem pieces that should be placed in a display case or left in their box to look at.
A good sneeze from 2' away just might cause a tiny detail part to go flying across the room.
I think what the OP is trying to say is that models cost more today, in part because they are more complex with fine detail. Yet, these expensive, finely detailed models, are more delicate because the finer detail is scale plastic, and it easily bends, breaks, and falls off the model as it travels along the layout.
To that assertion, I agree.
Of course, the naysayers picture a bunch of fat old men with stubby fingers carelessly handling these time bombs. Hey, I may be old, but I am not fat, and I don't have stubby fingers, and I am not careless. Yet, I have a small box of parts that have fallen off these models, while other models sit on the layout with damaged or missing parts.
There is no avoiding this unless you put these expensive, fragile models in a display case and leave them there.
Also, let's not forget inflation; that $25 American Flyer GP7 of 1956 would cost $217.59 in 2014 dollars.
For decades, literally, the MR letter column was populated with letters complaining about oversize details.
Now you know why all the manufacturers' reps are drinking heavily as soon as the dealers' room closes at NMRA conventions.
Hey, have I got the answer for you! Do you want a tough model? Do you want all-metal handrails that won't warp and take paint well? Do you want prototypical accuracy and detail parts that don't fall off? It's very simple: just buy brass! Yes, brass locos have all-metal construction that is very durable. Detail parts aren't glued on, they are soldered on. Same for the handrails; being made of brass, they don't shrink, warp, or break.
Of course, you'll pay 2 to 4 times the cost of a plastic model, it won't have sound and it probably won't even have a DCC socket. But brass locos can take some rough and tumble handling without damage.
Or, you could just stop treating your $300 Genesis locos like they are $20 Tycos.
Paul A. Cutler III