This seems to be a major advancement in the hobby. Thoughts?
I think sound has major potential and a future in the hobby, but I do NOT think that future lies in cramming tinny little speakers into our trains. While some technological improvements certainly can be expected, and while sound is certainly superior now to what it was just a few years ago, a sound source in an HO or N scale piece of rolling stock can only be so large, can only move so much air so to speak, and thus can only come so close to true "high fidelity." I am not speaking of volume or loudness but of fidelity and full range.
I think rather that the future lies in sound systems that will inhabit entire layouts (either below or above). One could imagine where many things on a layout would be sound equipped that are not now.
When you "scale down" how far away we are from our model trains, and translate that into real life experiences, you'd see that our sense of specific locality for sound begins to pretty much disappear at a certain distance. Our sense of specific locality for deep bass sounds (very common for train related sounds) is particularly vague. That is why in a high class stereo system you can locate the subwoofer nearly anywhere in a room, while placement of the actual stereo speakers is somewhat critical.
My own view is that to a certain extent we have become too charmed by the ability to deliver sound from the models themselves and that has somewhat blinded us (or deafened us?) to rendering accurate judgments about the quality of that sound versus what we hear when railfanning -- much less what we hear when actually on a locomotive.
Well those are my thoughts. I have stuck my neck out and expect some to hack away at it.
Dave Nelson
I like sound in my loco's, but it is what it is. Those tiny speakers can not push enough air to give anything close to a decent sound and never will.
I have taken video of my 2-10-4 with some borrowed higher end mic's and taken it to the big screen where I have Bose 601s as surrounds and 18 inch subwoofers that go down to 16Hz. I was amazed at how well the sound improved when transfered to this equipment.
I am not a sound tech, however I would be curious as to the size of speaker and the capabilities required to really get it right. In the meantime I am happy to live in the world of the squeaky sound my engines give me.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
johngriffey18ca1 This seems to be a major advancement in the hobby. Thoughts?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
dknelsonI think rather that the future lies in sound systems that will inhabit entire layouts (either below or above).
The responses so far indicate people are expecting "standing next to the tracks" sound. And if that's the expectation, then, yeah, sound as we know it and are likely to know it for some time will be disappointing.
Me? I'm OK with "sitting on the hill side" sound. I don't need sound louder than what I would hear at normal viewing distances. If we assume that's about 3'/1m, then you'd be listening to a train that's roughly a football field away. That's a much easier standard/expectation to meet and I think the the vendors have done a good job there.
Now, if you turn the volume up, trying to get "closer" to the tracks in terms of sound, then you will find model sound disappointing. You're asking it to perform something sound doesn't do in the environment. If you're a football field away, then you just won't get "next to the tracks" sound. I'm not sure why people expect that. I suppose because making the model into a sound generating device on par with a fine home stereo is their goal. Heck, even most audio equipment these days will be a disappointment. Compare listening to the same thing via MP3, then via a phono record.
I'm sure incremental improvements will continue. They're probably eventually come up with a setting called "next to the tracks remote" to make it sound like what the disappointed here are discussing. Scale sound, I'd argue, is somewhat of a different ball game. If I want hi-fi, I use that. If I want sound from one of my locos, I use what's been adapted to model railroad use.
An interesting thing about the SoundCar is that it's sounds tend to be the more subtle ones that are often overlooked. In that sense, you will have to be "closer to the tracks" to hear them working, if the levels are set right. Maybe still not where some people want it until the first "full home hi-fi enabled" sound system comes out, though, but programmed right it should be really effective.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I think that sound will continue to improve and get cheaper until it becomes "standard" in locomotives, just like lights are pretty standard now. It will not however be like trackside with a real locomotive. But if used with low volume it can add a nice effect.
If you really want the best sound effect than you probably should be in G (or O) where there is more focus on the train and being trackside.
In the smaller scales, it's like lights - okay, but not really needed.
Enjoy
Paul
The new stuff sounds fine. To give an idea of scale of sound, if you can get to within 1" of the engine, fiqure you would be over 7' away, now take into acount 3' and you are min 261 feet away and I am sure there is a squaring factor to throw in too.
Im still waiting for the sound system that is mounted under the table, and follows each individual train around the layout. Much like a modern model signal system. Incorporating the proper fade in/fade out, doppler effect, and multisound (birds, cars, general background noise, etc) capabilities. Easy to do really.
The technology exists (for many years now) but no one is doing it. This would allow the operator to pump the sound to any number of amplifiers (or even home stereo with multiple channel output) and definately use speakers large enough to "push air" like yall mention.
You can bet your last petunia it would be expensive though! (for some reason).
Imagine using a set of Peavey stage sound cabinets! MMMMM just like the real thing! For scale sound however i recommend your standard 5" rounds. You dont want the neighbors complaining!
"Whats that hunny???? I cant hear you!!!!"
PM Railfan Im still waiting for the sound system that is mounted under the table, and follows each individual train around the layout. Much like a modern model signal system. Incorporating the proper fade in/fade out, doppler effect, and multisound (birds, cars, general background noise, etc) capabilities. Easy to do really. The technology exists (for many years now) but no one is doing it. This would allow the operator to pump the sound to any number of amplifiers (or even home stereo with multiple channel output) and definately use speakers large enough to "push air" like yall mention. You can bet your last petunia it would be expensive though! (for some reason). Imagine using a set of Peavey stage sound cabinets! MMMMM just like the real thing! For scale sound however i recommend your standard 5" rounds. You dont want the neighbors complaining! "Whats that hunny???? I cant hear you!!!!"
Surroundtraxx
Dean
30 years 1:1 Canadian Pacific.....now switching in HO
It will continue to evolve like everything else.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Awesome revolution? The only actually new/different feature in the SoundCar is the easy consisting thing, no one else has that. Several decoders have had fully user programmable sounds with which to create speed-dependent rail clacks, brake squeals, and all that other stuff. Some go back to before the Tsunami was even launched. And in a limited way, there are those BLI cattle cars with sounds, they go back a few years now (recently re-run), of course they only have animal sounds, not rail sounds.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don;t see the SoundCar as some kind of revolution in model railroad sounds, just a nice addition.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I love the sounds from my locos. I run all of mine (3) at the same time however the volume is WAY down. Especially the bells. Trains are loud by nature but I don't want that while I'm relaxing in front off the layout. The chairman of the board also doesn't want to hear it from upstairs when she's relaxing either. That being said, some low bass at a low volume at several places around the layout synced with a location of a train would be awesome. I would probably subscribe to that. Maybe when the layout is closer to being "finished".
I only have diesels so I'm curious- what does steam power sound like at idle? I've seen a few videos of the prototype but there's usually a diesel right behind the steam engine so I'm not sure what I'm hearing. It seems like maybe a high pitch hum kinda like a jet liner sounds from the inside. Does model steam do the same at idle? Or nothing?
T e d
I don't expect "bowel quaking volume" from my trains, but I do want the actual correct sound profile. But the simple fact of it is that most small speakers in engines cut out at somewhere around Treble F or so... around 350 to 500 Hz.
SurroundTrax, or something like it, would be a truly awesome way to go about this; a 12" speaker can capture the subtlety of bass response even at low volume. Even from 100 yards away, bass frequencies are still bass frequencies.Unfortunately, SurroundTrax still seems to have a lot of teething problems, and the fact that each $700 unit only can handle 6 different locomotive sounds at a time is a severe limitation... if I run a Soo Line train with a GP30, a U30C, and an F7 on the point... which I have pictures of... I have used up half of my $700 unit on one train.
But yes, I too am very disappointed by the tinny, unrealisitc sound that comes out of onboard sound units. I think we need to make a lot more noise about this. (hurr hurr hurr, make noise, get it? Get it? Make noise? Sound units? Get it?)
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
dknelson My own view is that to a certain extent we have become too charmed by the ability to deliver sound from the models themselves and that has somewhat blinded us (or deafened us?) to rendering accurate judgments about the quality of that sound versus what we hear when railfanning -- much less what we hear when actually on a locomotive. Well those are my thoughts. I have stuck my neck out and expect some to hack away at it. Dave Nelson
Good heavens, I thought I was the only one who thought that. I agree 100%. We need to push harder on the idea that "no sound is better than unrealistic sound." It's not that the digital samples are bad... we need a better way to deliver them than 20mm diameter speakers.If Soundtraxx put some serious effort into SurroundTrax they could dominate the market.
mlehman The responses so far indicate people are expecting "standing next to the tracks" sound. And if that's the expectation, then, yeah, sound as we know it and are likely to know it for some time will be disappointing. Me? I'm OK with "sitting on the hill side" sound. I don't need sound louder than what I would hear at normal viewing distances.
Me? I'm OK with "sitting on the hill side" sound. I don't need sound louder than what I would hear at normal viewing distances.
Sorry, no, you've missed the point entirely. It's not a question of volume, it's a question of FREQUENCY. Loud or soft, bass is bass and treble is treble.
mlehmanNow, if you turn the volume up, trying to get "closer" to the tracks in terms of sound, then you will find model sound disappointing. You're asking it to perform something sound doesn't do in the environment.
I agree..I have notice the higher the volume the more it sounds like bacon frying or hot grease in a frying pan then it does a locomotive.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Bayfield Transfer RailwaySorry, no, you've missed the point entirely. It's not a question of volume, it's a question of FREQUENCY. Loud or soft, bass is bass and treble is treble.
Back off to listen to sound at a distance and you will hear a considerable shift in the frequency response. Go out on the street and listen for the next loud car stereo. Yes, you will hear that bass a lot further than anything else -- and that may be all you hear, depending on the musical tastes of the user.
As an old stereo buff, I'm quite aware for frequency response. But once again, your loco ain't no sound system.
People who don't want or like sound in their locos are fine by me. Just don't implythose of us who find it adequate that we have tin ears. I can power up the sound system if I want to rock. If I want to RR, I want something considerably different.
One thing's for sure, if the average scale listening distance is a football field length away, you won't be hearing what those who claim is deficient anyway. Next time I go to operate and everyone is trying to hold their ear next to their loco with the master volume running at value 255, I might take these concerns more seriously. But I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of listening, I just want to point out that what is being expected by those deriding sound locos is probably at least as unnatural as whatever failings in quality go with tiny speakers and 1 or 2 watt output levels. I hope some day they come up with something that will meet your needs. In the meantime, I enjoy the fact that current technology meets mine.
BRAKIEI agree..I have notice the higher the volume the more it sounds like bacon frying or hot grease in a frying pan then it does a locomotive.
Definitely don't turn it up to 11. The harder you drive a sound system, the more distortion you'll hear, especially given the form-factor limitations of model locomotives. That in itself is a good reason to back off on volume and accept that it's likely more natural to be listening at relatively low volume settings.
One thing that's also important to remember about sound is that it's subject to similar rules of selective compression as visual and 3D aspects of modeling. This is a race where subtlety wins over sheer force. What is suggested by sound is often more effective than the effects of being hit over the head with it.
Interestingly, most of those who argue the need for gutquaking sound from the other side of the layout for their Goose model would never argue that you must go ahead and model that entire warehouse with its 120 dock doors on your layout or you won't be able to build a convincing model of it...
Sound adds another dimension to the experience, but it has its limits. Unless one is prepared to spend a lot of money for several dozen speakers under the track plan so that the distance effect is also scaled, the sound is only likely to be so-so at best. As it is, the sound is scratchy, hissy, and tinny. Perhaps G scale comes close, but the scales smaller than that have the ability to climb only so far up that large mountain called Realistic. Bose may be interested in doing the research and engineering to make superior sound modules for HO, mebbe, but just think of what a commercially available product of that nature would cost! $500 a pop? That's in addition to the locomotive. And the decoder.
I can't have more than two HO locomotives making sound at any one time. It just gets to be a horrible cacophony of competing sounds, even on opposite ends of the layout.
mlehman Interestingly, most of those who argue the need for gutquaking sound from the other side of the layout for their Goose model would never argue that you must go ahead and model that entire warehouse with its 120 dock doors on your layout or you won't be able to build a convincing model of it...
Crandell,
I don't recall exactly how big your layout is, but I seem to recall a modest size. Still it might be worth dialing back the master volume some and see if that helps. Then you're much more likley to only hear the closer one, depending. My layout is only somewhat bigger than "modest sized" and most of my volumes settings are such that I would not be able to hear a loco much if I'm working a loco on the other end of the room. This is aided somewhat by a view divider and some tallish mountains, but the main thing is respecting the distance that other loco should be away. If in real life I couldn't hear it well or at all at the scale distance it's at, I'm not missing anything nor should I be able to hear it on the layout either.
Wow, a lot of stuff being said here, on both sides of the issue, is stuff I have been saying for years.
Yes, the scale listening distance is a big factor.
The type of layout - shelf, deep scenery, multi deck - also has a big effect on how sound comes across to the operator or casual viewer.
I still believe the ultimate sound systems will be layout based in the smaller scales.
I am personally an experianced HiFi speaker designer/builder, and after three dozen higher priority model railroading goals are a little farther along, I have a few ideas about layout based sound I would like to try.
But I come from a modeling school of thought that rejects "toy like" and imbraces the idea that things that cannot be done well are better left off the model - for me that would be onboard sound in scales as small as HO and N.
I live close to the old PRR Northeast corridor and original B&O northeast mainlines - from a distance you only hear the deep base rumble of the prime movers and, more noticablely, the track/truck/coupler noise.
My sprung metal trucks with metal wheels give my models plenty of that second sound effect without thousands of dollars in electronics.
And none of those 1" speakers can get close to those less than 150 Hz sounds I hear from 500' or 1000' feet away.
Whistles and bells are easily added under the layout in the areas where they are commonly used without need for all the complexities of onboard sound - effects I do plan to add to my layout at some point.
Onboard sound can be pretty impressive in scales like G where you are automaticly in a more intimate relationship with the model because of its larger size.
But, in HO for example, the average person has a minimal focal distance of about 8", so the closest you can get to the train and still "see" it, is about 60 scale feet.
I base all my detail requirements, weathering, and usefullness of effects like animation and sound on this simple rule - in real life what would I hear or see at 50' to 100'?
And then, what would I hear or see at 260'? - the equal of the typical 3' viewing distance of an HO layout.
If I would not be able to hear or see it in the range - I don't need it.
My goal is to create a diorama like viewing experiance with balance and continuity - others will have different goals.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Wow, a lot of stuff being said here, on both sides of the issue, is stuff I have been saying for years. Yes, the scale listening distance is a big factor.
Yes, but distance is also very much a matter of perception and there are viable and satisfying differences among those who enjoy sound. Ultimately, sound is not the point, it's the RR experience we're after here, not the ultimate killer sound app...at least that's my view.
SNIP
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I am personally an experianced HiFi speaker designer/builder, and after three dozen higher priority model railroading goals are a little farther along, I have a few ideas about layout based sound I would like to try. But I come from a modeling school of thought that rejects "toy like" and imbraces the idea that things that cannot be done well are better left off the model - for me that would be onboard sound in scales as small as HO and N. I live close to the old PRR Northeast corridor and original B&O northeast mainlines - from a distance you only hear the deep base rumble of the prime movers and, more noticablely, the track/truck/coupler noise. My sprung metal trucks with metal wheels give my models plenty of that second sound effect without thousands of dollars in electronics. And none of those 1" speakers can get close to those less than 150 Hz sounds I hear from 500' or 1000' feet away.
I think you're the first critic here that at least admitted that cost factors in. Some people buy brass, some plastic. Some want sound. Some not. Nothing wrong with any of them. But if you'd just rather spend the bucks on something else, we could probably spare a lot of the discussion because people ARE "funny about money" and will often concoct elaborate explanations for why they'd just rather spend the moeny elsewhere.
Not you, Sheldon. I know you have these concerns, regardless of cost, plus you're on the cheap side when you're not taken with something. Fair enough
My experience has been that the generally more critical assessments of sound in scale, whatever scale that is, have been those with hi-fi as an interest. I won't say this is a bad thing, having been into that myself and still owning a sadly underutilized and pricey sound system. But I think it often tends to distort one's expectations of sound quality in other situations.
For most model railroaders, I suspect this is a largely irrelevant factor. They know what they like, often too loud, just as the stereo aficianados know what they like. It's obviously a lot easier to satisfy the former than the latter.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhistles and bells are easily added under the layout in the areas where they are commonly used without need for all the complexities of onboard sound - effects I do plan to add to my layout at some point.
Here I will disagree. Bells and whistles are at frequencies where reproduction with a fair amount of accuracy is possible AND they are directional enough it adds to the quaklity of the sound to actually be emitted by the pointb source itseelf. I'm sure you have some elaborate scheme in mind to produce this, but for most of us it's just easier to invoke Lord Tsunami
ATLANTIC CENTRALOnboard sound can be pretty impressive in scales like G where you are automaticly in a more intimate relationship with the model because of its larger size.
When I run my large scale stuff, it's outdoors and I tend to be much farther away than indoors with HO. But I' am looking forward to adding RC and sound to my Shay, someday.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut, in HO for example, the average person has a minimal focal distance of about 8", so the closest you can get to the train and still "see" it, is about 60 scale feet. I base all my detail requirements, weathering, and usefullness of effects like animation and sound on this simple rule - in real life what would I hear or see at 50' to 100'? And then, what would I hear or see at 260'? - the equal of the typical 3' viewing distance of an HO layout. If I would not be able to hear or see it in the range - I don't need it. My goal is to create a diorama like viewing experiance with balance and continuity - others will have different goals. Sheldon
I think the issue here is that sound perception is so subjective. There is no sound scale rule, for instance. People want to hear different things. Obviously, a lot of people want trackside sound when operating even when they are hundreds of scale feet from the tracks. To me, that is a bit of a stretch, but to each his own. I just have trouble with people expecting that and being disappointed when they don't get that experience after spending the big bucks to add sound for the first time to a loco purchase. Instead of questioning the quality of what they bought, it's probably more useful to discuss what reasonable expectations for sound in scale are, considering the state of the art, technical restrictions depending on scale, and plain ol' physics that make sound emission from tiny boxes somewhat problematic, but still very satisftying for a large part of the model RR community.
Sound volume, unless you're alone, has to be kept VERY low. Tony Koester once postited a rule of thumb that at normal operating distance, the sound should be so low that you can have a conversation without raising your voice, which seems like a reasonable standard.As Mr. Lehman said, overdriving the volume will exacerbate the lack of bass in the sound.
Sound in MR'ing will continue to expand and explode whether in the locos, in a sound car or, for those who like being inside the mallet engine, pouring out of 100 watt amplifiers into 30 inch woofers over head in the ceiling.
It is and has always been technology limited. Technology changes rather quickly. I had always laughed at the idea of MR sound until about 2005. I knew technology would do it and those early systems, in train, were rather ludicrous.
Now? Well, it is a new ball game and we aren't even into the major league yet. Sound, in Train, is now good to very good in my opinion.
The speaker is the limitation now and not the electronics. The speaker gets its air moving power per unit sound watt input from the magnet and there are some incredible magnet structures that have not made it into tiny speakers yet.
As we must work with what we have, I tend to use the "super bass" neodymium magnet structured, small speaker offered by Soundtraxx and let it do what it can in a decent designed baffle structure. So many folks just slap a speaker in wherever it will fit and don't work on a baffling principle. They reap the reward of limited sound performance. Many manufacturers also don't seem to care much about this either.
Sound and its delivery will get better no matter how or where you like your sound coming from.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
ATLANTIC CENTRALI base all my detail requirements, weathering, and usefullness of effects like animation and sound on this simple rule - in real life what would I hear or see at 50' to 100'?
If the train is starting from a stop you will feel viberations in the ground and body.I first notice that when GP30s was new.
Detail wise about the same detail as a older Atlas Classic locomotive if stopped or if at track speed next to none.
Bayfield Transfer RailwaySurroundTrax, or something like it, would be a truly awesome way to go about this; a 12" speaker can capture the subtlety of bass response even at low volume. Even from 100 yards away, bass frequencies are still bass frequencies.
That would not work unless there was a way to lower the sound as the locomotive moves farther away from the listener.
I have notice at low volumes my three sound equipped locomotives does fade as they move away and then silence as the cars pass unless the metal wheels is going over a rail joint or metal switch frog...
My thoughts is we should emulate the sound of cars especially when being switched this to will help fade the sound of the locomotive as it get farther away.
I guess I'm the odd man out in that when I'm running trains, I'd rather listen to my old jazz records than the trains. My dad has a few sound-equiped locos in O-Gauge and we both find the novelty wears off very quickly.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
I think the trick to making sound work is to keep it in the background. Very often I hear locomotive sounds being placed right up front, and the bell sound is loud enough to be heard through the walls. I have yet to experiment with it yet, but I plan on adding sound units to my fleet and I'm thinking that dialing the sound down on things like bells and whistles and turbos will probably help keep things from getting old.
Now, I do like the idea of having a car or two making the occasional wheel squeak or having a flat-spot wheel (which could be timed by mounting some kind of doo-dad on one of the axles). The fact is, trains are noisy little suckers and I think that it enhances the scene to have all of that racket going on as a train passes. If we do as others have suggested and respect the effect that distance has on sound, then it will all blend in to the point where it's only noticed when it's NOT there.
As for low freq sound enhancement....I'll get back to you on that.
Freelancing two railroads...and I'll probably think up another one by the time you read this.