Bayfield Transfer Railway Hmm. Those Blackstone engines.... where do they put the speaker?It occurs to me that you steam guys 'cheat' ... ;) ... your engines haul this nice little speaker enclosure around behind them, it's called the "tender." It seems to me that if you put the largest speaker you possibly could in even a narrow gauge tender, you'd have a much larger speaker than the typical 18 x 22 mm oval in a diesel; of COURSE you'll have better sound.Doggone it... does that mean that after 40 years of a strict "no dummy diesels" I have to start getting some to use as rolling speaker enclosures? What kind of bass would we get out of the largest speaker you can cram into a dummy HO scale B unit?
Hmm. Those Blackstone engines.... where do they put the speaker?It occurs to me that you steam guys 'cheat' ... ;) ... your engines haul this nice little speaker enclosure around behind them, it's called the "tender." It seems to me that if you put the largest speaker you possibly could in even a narrow gauge tender, you'd have a much larger speaker than the typical 18 x 22 mm oval in a diesel; of COURSE you'll have better sound.Doggone it... does that mean that after 40 years of a strict "no dummy diesels" I have to start getting some to use as rolling speaker enclosures? What kind of bass would we get out of the largest speaker you can cram into a dummy HO scale B unit?
Michael,
The tender is essentially a dummy. It looks good, but is dead weight. Combined with the fact that most diesels have all driven wheels and steam has a considerable handicap.
I don't recall the exact measurements, but IIRC the speaker that Blackstone uses in the K-27 is slightly bigger than in the C-19 -- and both are in the one inch class.
Yes, the tender has its advanatges along with the disadvantages. It is a bigger spot than in many diesels, but not all. The biggest advanatge is that it is easy to make it into an enclosure and Blackstone took care to make sure that was right.
kstrongI think our ears are much more forgiving of small speakers than we give credit. Yes, a 1/2" speaker in an HO scale loco is going to sound pretty weak compared to a 3" speaker in a large scale loco. But, our brains have this unique ability to fill in the gaps--to let us hear what is not there based on our experiences with the prototype. I think what's going to drive the sound systems of the future is their ability to intereact with the model locomotive in a prototypical fashion. We hear this to some extent with BEMF feedback on some decoders.
K, I think you've got a great point there about sound and model railroading. Our mind does fill in things. And we tend to do it even more where sound is just one of several things stimulating our sense and engaging our minds. Yes, shut your eyes and concentrate on nothing else but sound and you can pick out the deficiencies much more easily. I suspect those who obsess about how "bad" the sound is often are "stereo snobs" because I've BTDT. But unlike when listening to music and concentrating on that, we're doing a bunch of other things usually when running our locos emitting sound. It then is part of the big picture -- you're on a RR running trains.
As for better sound based on interaction with the loco, the DDE that is available on the Tsunami does a pretty good job once it's adjusted of producing sound that corresponds with a loco either working hard upgrade or drifting downgrade. It would be interesting to see how that could be used to provide feedback to modify the brake noise effects to match. Not sure that's possible with the Tsu and the SoundCar yet, but should be easy to implement in the future if it's not in already.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I think our ears are much more forgiving of small speakers than we give credit. Yes, a 1/2" speaker in an HO scale loco is going to sound pretty weak compared to a 3" speaker in a large scale loco. But, our brains have this unique ability to fill in the gaps--to let us hear what is not there based on our experiences with the prototype.
I think what's going to drive the sound systems of the future is their ability to intereact with the model locomotive in a prototypical fashion. We hear this to some extent with BEMF feedback on some decoders. I see that expanding, perhaps with smartphone/tablet interfaces that allow us even greater flexibility in terms of realistic sound feedback. I see things like "quillable" whistles, and the ability to notch the Johnson bar with cooresponding changes in the chuff.
You're never going to be able to beat physics. Maybe someday we'll have the "Bose Wave Boxcar," but the small scales are always going to sound a bit less dynamic than the large scales, which are always going to sound less dynamic than the prototype. However, the user experience will make up for that, and draw the modeler in. I love operating a locomotive that responds to changes in throttle realistically--both from a movement standpoint and an aural one. It doesn't take me long at all before my brain meshes what I'm hearing from the speaker in my loco with what I've heard from prototype locomotives, and all of a sudden, my loco sounds real!
Later,
K
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Myself I'm 100% a fan of sound. I have an HO Atlas C 424 (CP 4208) and it sounds good to me. I rode in a lot of them early on in my career and the sound is bang on. Maybe 30 years spent in locomotives, vans and riding the sides of boxcars has ruined my hearing I can't imagine operating a layout in DC and silence!
Dean
30 years 1:1 Canadian Pacific.....now switching in HO
CurmudgeonAmong others. Like, oh, Bachmann whose goal is to mandate dcc in all locomotives. Then the consumer gets to pay for it, and then cut and throw. Yeah, it's a conspiracy that costs you money if what they factory install isn't what you choose to use.
Bachmann sound is getting cheaper, just a little faster than that of others. Yes, they will probably quit making DC locos in the higher quality lines and go DCC/sound only. They've had DCC only in a number of models for some time now. Last GE 70-tonners i bought came with it and cost me $45 bucks, so I don't worry too much about whether it's on there or not. I replace it anyway. I doubt that everything will be DCC/sound for a long time, but you never know. People don't complian too much about expensive GPS any more, now that everyone has it on their phone for next to nothing. Obviously, you don't need to buy either Bachmann's offerings or the phones with GPS.
CurmudgeonThen there is OEM....versus nmra/dcc, which can be different and incompatible.
"OEM DCC"? AFAIK, there is only one set of DCC standards. Some are required per the NMRA standards, but many are up to the manufacturer. That can be a little confusing, so check your documentation.
CurmudgeonOh......and my general use cars are in fact Fords...
I wasn't trying to get personal, Dave, just good at guessing maybe. My apologies. Wish I'd wasted that wish on a lotto ticket now, though...
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
DCC, as more or less codified by the NMRA, is currently used by surely the bulk of HO and O scale MR's who operate what might be termed committed and decent size layouts. Sound will follow in the footsteps of DCC and be adopted by most MR's in the fullness of time and as the technology advances. My opinion, based on what I see and the trend in the hobby, is that the sound decoder is on a course to be the standard of the hobby.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
"Yeah, those sneaky people in Durango have been sneaking thousands of locomotives into the country and forcing people to buy them, despite what is an obviously defective and loathesome decoder. It's a conspiracy!
It was a point worth bringing up, as it speaks to the wide acceptance of the product by a critical group of consumers. Obviously, it doesn't satisfy everyone.
But the fact that I would never buy a Ford doesn't mean that cars in general are a bad idea...
Urbana, IL"
Among others. Like, oh, Bachmann whose goal is to mandate dcc in all locomotives. Then the consumer gets to pay for it, and then cut and throw. Yeah, it's a conspiracy that costs you money if what they factory install isn't what you choose to use.
Then there is OEM....versus nmra/dcc, which can be different and incompatible.
Oh......and my general use cars are in fact Fords...and US made....and don't try to argue, as they are more than 60 years old.....and US made for sure.
Dave
Judging by visitor reaction to my small switching layout over the past year or so I would guess that the future of sound in the hobby is bright. Only talking maybe 25 visitors, and while some of them consider model trains but a novelty, all, both young and old alike appeared in awe of the little Soundtraxx equipped NW2 switcher.
Though initially skeptical, I was extremely pleased to find that sound opened an interesting and realistic dimension to my model railroading experience. Sound definitely adds to my enjoyment of performing switching sequences in a slow prototype manner.
Regards, Peter
mlehmanYeah, those sneaky people in Durango have been sneaking thousands of locomotives into the country and forcing people to buy them, despite what is an obviously defective and loathesome decoder. It's a conspiracy!
Blackstone has made many modelers (including me) consider HOn3.
As already mentioned in this thread, the idea is to keep the volumes low. In my case, I'm a lone wolf so I'm not operating with 8 other sound equipped locos with a group, but when I do go to the club, my volume doesn't require an adjustment as it isn't load enough to overwelm or disturb others.
Sound will continue to be a part in this hobby for a long time, the option for many is to hit F8. (and that's okay). The only issue they will have is paying the added expense for a feature they do not want, but like many things, a compromise will need to be made.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Not sure that video will show up and if not here is another link:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152628460998040&pnref=story
As far as sound goes in HO and N you're pretty limited. Th speakers dont get the right air movement and the enclosure is limited to the space inside the car body. Not saying there isnt some very impressive sounds as the latest versions i have heard are amazing and very well done but I do believe you are limited in what goes on. I model in O scale (proto 48) which is able to give me the room needed to do some more work. I designed the baffle in the locomotive which the video still doesnt do it justice, compared to if you were standing there but atleast it gives you an idea of what is capable in larger scales. The bass is quite deep and actually "growls" when you throttle up. Tsunami hit the Non turboed 645 on the head. I am more impressed with Lok sound 567 though.
The baffle is important when it comes to sound. Do a little research and that can make strides when getting sound output.
james
Modeling Avery, Idaho 1971
P48 O scale
CurmudgeonAll part of the plan, Jim. To protect your interests and opinions, do a sneak attack on anyone you think might just derail their opinions.
Yeah, those sneaky people in Durango have been sneaking thousands of locomotives into the country and forcing people to buy them, despite what is an obviously defective and loathesome decoder. It's a conspiracy!
"I'm not sure what point the disussion about narrow gaugers is meant bring since as far as I can tell, no one has targeted any particular part of the hobby in this discussion. Nor has anyone said narrowgaugers are "wet-behind-the-ears newbies." And I do remember the PFM sound system as an outstanding system for it's day, perhaps in some ways better than some current systems. "
All part of the plan, Jim. To protect your interests and opinions, do a sneak attack on anyone you think might just derail their opinions.
I haven't bought any Soundtraxx items since they dropped the Sierra line. Zero interest in any of that dcc stuff, as I use stand alone controls.
It's always fun going to train shows and passing the Nano Scale layouts with their sound systems cranked up sounding for all the world like a pack of angry Starlings trapped in a shoebox.
For something where no physical room exists for proper speaker enclosures, under board systems with smart track tracking technology to move the sound around following the train is far better...and lets the starlings out of the shoebox.
Sheldon has a very good point about numbers of operators vs volume. These have to be kept in a happy relationship or sound can get annoying. In part it's because your operators will be trying to talk over sound that's too loud, too, which just makes the cacophony worse. The one-to-one relationship between operator and train is important to the charms of narrowgauge, but I can keep a half-dozen operators busy. When you enter the room, it's conversation that is loudest, not the locos.
jmbjmbI happen to model diesel and as you said that you also weren't committed to diesel sound yet. Here's the problem I have with diesel: the current systems seem to get too much of the high frequency sound in the mix compared to the low frequency (again, I understand the physics of speaker size), to the point where all I hear from most diesel systems is a high pitch whine that to me is just as irritating as fingernails on a blackboard.
Yeah, and this is an effect that isn't helped by age, I can tell you. So a little sound goes a long way. But keep in mind that many decoders allow the sound to be tailored via an equalizer. The Tsunami is pretty good on this, but the Wow! is outstanding from what I hear.
jmbjmbI'm not sure what point the disussion about narrow gaugers is meant bring since as far as I can tell, no one has targeted any particular part of the hobby in this discussion.
I brought up narrowgauge for a couple of reason. One, a lot of folks there were resistant adopters. I know, because I was one. But the current generation of tsunami, long in tooth as it is, changed that. In large part because Blackstone did such a good job at integrating sound with the model.
Mostly it was because NGers tend to be pretty darn picking about the prototype, yet they've gotten on board the sound train in droves. Is it a perfect reproduction? No, but it's good enough now for the vast majority. Yes, there are those who don't enjoy it, but that is viewed by a pretty tough crowd that's hard to please for the most part as a personal perference, rather than ascribed to any basic overall inadequacy with sound. And there's nothing wrong with having that preference, but people do tend to question it when people attribute that preference solely to the lack of fidelity.
mlehman I'm still not all that commited to diesel sound. I have a limited amount of it. So all these narrowgaugers are just a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears newbies that wouldn't know a steam loco if it hit them? Hardly the case. In fact, narrowgaugers tend to have lots of experience in the hobby, are very insistent on prototype accuracy, and would just as soon build something than buy it. And those K-27s and C-19s just keep flowing out of Durango.
I'm still not all that commited to diesel sound. I have a limited amount of it.
So all these narrowgaugers are just a bunch of wet-behind-the-ears newbies that wouldn't know a steam loco if it hit them? Hardly the case. In fact, narrowgaugers tend to have lots of experience in the hobby, are very insistent on prototype accuracy, and would just as soon build something than buy it. And those K-27s and C-19s just keep flowing out of Durango.
I'm not sure what point the disussion about narrow gaugers is meant bring since as far as I can tell, no one has targeted any particular part of the hobby in this discussion. Nor has anyone said narrowgaugers are "wet-behind-the-ears newbies." And I do remember the PFM sound system as an outstanding system for it's day, perhaps in some ways better than some current systems.
But since I don't model narrow gauge, the quality of Blackstone models or narrow gauge sound systems is irrelevant to me. I happen to model diesel and as you said that you also weren't committed to diesel sound yet. Here's the problem I have with diesel: the current systems seem to get too much of the high frequency sound in the mix compared to the low frequency (again, I understand the physics of speaker size), to the point where all I hear from most diesel systems is a high pitch whine that to me is just as irritating as fingernails on a blackboard. I don't have an O-scope, to to my ear, it seems as if 70% of the sound intensity is in the high frequency range whereas when I listen to trains coming through town, esp when I'm a hundred yards away, what I actually hear is 70% in the low frequency range. To me, that's why I haven't bought one yet.
jim
One more thought about sound - in any scale.
Style of of opperation. If a particular individual is most interested in the experiance of "being the engineer", that is walking around with a single train, staying in close proximity to it, and controlling it in a very detailed way, then sound is both more important, and becomes more effective, even if the sound quailty is less than "perfect".
And, admittedly this is a very popular approach to model railroading these days - also marked by the popularity of DCC, the lack of interest in siginaling or CTC, and the popularity of linear walk around layouts.
But not everyone in the hobby is fully or solely commited to this interest or kind of operation.
My layout is specificly designed to support three different styles of operation - and it can do all three at the same time.
It can be run by a single engineer, or multiple single engineers, walking around with their trains - including industrial areas that function as nearly independent ISL's.
Then to that we can, but don't need to, add a dispatcher with a simplified version CTC with ATC (for those not familiar, ATC, or Automatic Train Control, is a system used on the prototype to automaticly stop trains that run a red signal).
AND/OR - we can set up mulitple discrete routes and run in "railfan" or display mode, with the ATC still protecting trains from incorrect turnout postions and other hazards.
In a setting where as many as 8 to 10 trains are moving at once, even on a moderately large layout, and even set at low volumes, onboard sound can become a din, to say the least.
So going back to the idea of a single operator, running a single train throught a scene on a layout depicting a sleepy narrow guage line or branch line, a lot can be said in favor of sound - even in HO narrow gauge.
And on a large layout, with eight trains running at once, a lot can be said AGAINST the ear grating noise of what is the acoustic equal of eight 1965 transistor radios playing static - especially if 50% of them are playing "diesel" static.
Since my layout goals revolve around the eight train senario, and I do it without DCC in the first place, sound is a non starter for me.
If by some strange happening I was to suddenly change interest and direction in the hobby, then I could see myself with large scale narrow gauge indoors with sound running one train at a time - and sound would be an important and desired feature.
But for now, and for the last 40 or so years in the hobby, I am more interested in being the division Superintendant of a busy Class I set in the mid 50's.
Sheldon
Bravo Mike! As noted, earlier, the only thing that dragged me back into MRing in 2009 was the Blacksotne offerings and the amazing Tsunami sound mated to those K-27s and C-19s!
I now have 8 of their K-27s and 4 of their C-19s and am lusting after the soon to be released "sports model", K-28.
I just bought another K-27 and C-19....They are thinning out and the pickin's are slim now as Blackstone gears up for the K-28 and K-36 releases which will disappear like rainwater down a gutter when they are dropped onto the market. I worry, I won't get in on the first run before they are gobbled up.
Those folks nailed it in matching the sound to the loco and its operation to real life. They appear to have spent a lot of time on the only two locos they have ever produced since 2006 and got it right, selling out run after run with lots of variants of the same locos in subsequent runs. Sweet!
jmbjmbI want sound in my trains. I really do. But I have yet to expend the funds for a sound system, sound decoders, etc because I have not yet found one that produces the sound quality worth the cost.
BTDT. Until Blackstone packaged the Tsunami in one nice neat little bundle, I pretty much felt the same way. I'm still not all that commited to diesel sound. I have a limited amount of it -- 6 F unit sound chassis (P2K/QSI), plus 3 Atlas Monon C-420s. My narrowgauge diesels generally have a nice growl to them with a motor only decoder.
While there aren't many into NG here, I can tell you Blackstone has been selling K-27 and C-19 locos like hotcakes for the last decade. The vast majority of these locos have sound, in fact they've pretty much discontinued DC only versions because of the very limited demand for them and the fact that the Tsuanmi operates pretty well on DC.
What does this have to do with the arguments about quality of sound? A lot. Now, everyone has a very subjective sense of what sounds sgood and what doesn't. I'm not gonna say you're not telling me the truth that it's just not good enough for your ears. But consider the community of NGers where the Tsunami has found wide acceptance and only very modest criticism here and there about a few very specific things. The most imprtant of those is actually about when the next-gen Tsunami will be out. So despite the pereceptions of some that sounds just all around sucks, that is just not what the marketplace is telling Soundtraxx/Blackstone.
If you look back at the history of sound in the hobby, you'll also find that much of the early innovation in the field centered around narrowgaugers. The classic one was the widespread accpetance of PFM sound systems, which are still valued quite highly when they come up used. Being picky about their prototype means being picky about their sound. So while I know there are people here who don't find it appealing, I suspect they are a vocal, but small minority. Maybe their expectations are inflated for whatever reason or maybe they really are so senstive to sound that it's just not working for them. I dunno. But when one of the largest groups of committed prototype modelers finds the Tsunami acceptable, that a pretty good indication that there's something going on they may want to check out more closely.
I haven't bought a steam loco since without sound once the Tsunami convinced me of the viability of sound.
Isn't something smaller in scale supposed to sound small and tinny? Like in the movies when someone gets shrunk their voices sound......smaller?
I get the general idea of sound waves but how do you scale down sound? Seems like something that wouldn't make sense to human ears.
It's just like animation. I don't get a kick out of the guy that pops out of the freighthouse when a train comes by. Alternatively I do like sound at a low volume. I bet this same debate could be had about figures on a layout too. People don't just stand there frozen when a train comes by. Eyes of the beholder I guess.
T e d
Dusty Solo I find it still has a ways to go before there is close to an almost universal acceptance of onboard sound. But by that time the cost of sound effects will probably be reaching the stratosphere.
Dusty,
Actually, there's becoming some convergence. Bachmann has been releasing new locos with sound (and all its limitations) where the difference in price is dropping fast. It used to be most locos with sound added demanded roughly $100 premium over non-sound. I'm recalling here, so may not be totally accurate, but with the newst Bachmann releases they have the cost difference down to around $60 IIRC.
Because it is an electronic device, the sound decoder is one of the few aspects of model railroading products that is likely to experience the dropping cost of capabilities just as many other forms of computer electronic stuff tends to obey Moore's Law.
Save for the sound of daily life on the outside of the train room, my layout is silent - no sound equipped models & it's still DC.
There are no plans to change. I respect other modelers choices, however I view sound on my set up to be just a gimmick, an unessesary extravagance that I can ill afford when the real business of building & buying models is becoming increasingly more expensive.
Besides, the on board sound I have heard seems thin and tinny like the sound from an early Zenith pocket transistor radio. As is the way of all things change is inevitable. There will be changes and improvments in the quality of onboard sound of that I am certain.
Modelers who buy sound equipped locomotives are looking for enhanced realisim, a fair enough goal, sound does acheive that, but from my own experience of sound, I find it still has a ways to go before there is close to an almost universal acceptance of onboard sound. But by that time the cost of sound effects will probably be reaching the stratosphere.
Dusty
I want sound in my trains. I really do. But I have yet to expend the funds for a sound system, sound decoders, etc because I have not yet found one that produces the sound quality worth the cost. And yes, I know about speaker size limitations, distance , etc. But so far I find the current sound quality to be even more distracting than oversize handrails, code 100 rail, and CSX paint schemes.
I'm in the camp that the future may be in traveling sound through speakers or perhaps individual bluetooth headsets tied to your locomotive control.
I predicted 10 years or more ago the dcc manufacturers would figure out some way to sell mor cra....errr.....stuff, and that decoders and speakers in the cars was next.
I have 14 locos on shed, 10 or 11 have sound, none of the others nor those stored/serviceable do (another 5 or 6).
I did professional sound for 40 years. I know sound...tiny freaking 1/10W speakers with no proper enclosure isn't.
I usually run my train with the sound either turned way down or OFF. I don't need it....and I certainly do not need it to mask motor and gear noise.
The whole thing is silly...and an added expense.
mlehman Crandell, I don't recall exactly how big your layout is, but I seem to recall a modest size. Still it might be worth dialing back the master volume some and see if that helps. ...
Crandell,
I don't recall exactly how big your layout is, but I seem to recall a modest size. Still it might be worth dialing back the master volume some and see if that helps. ...
Thanks, Mike. I learned to do that a long time ago, and it does have immediate relief to offer those of us who can tolerate HO sound, but not much of it, and not more than two competing for attention within 20 feet of each other. My layout is 11 feet wide and 21 feet long.
I think the trick to making sound work is to keep it in the background. Very often I hear locomotive sounds being placed right up front, and the bell sound is loud enough to be heard through the walls. I have yet to experiment with it yet, but I plan on adding sound units to my fleet and I'm thinking that dialing the sound down on things like bells and whistles and turbos will probably help keep things from getting old.
Now, I do like the idea of having a car or two making the occasional wheel squeak or having a flat-spot wheel (which could be timed by mounting some kind of doo-dad on one of the axles). The fact is, trains are noisy little suckers and I think that it enhances the scene to have all of that racket going on as a train passes. If we do as others have suggested and respect the effect that distance has on sound, then it will all blend in to the point where it's only noticed when it's NOT there.
As for low freq sound enhancement....I'll get back to you on that.
Freelancing two railroads...and I'll probably think up another one by the time you read this.
I guess I'm the odd man out in that when I'm running trains, I'd rather listen to my old jazz records than the trains. My dad has a few sound-equiped locos in O-Gauge and we both find the novelty wears off very quickly.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Bayfield Transfer RailwaySurroundTrax, or something like it, would be a truly awesome way to go about this; a 12" speaker can capture the subtlety of bass response even at low volume. Even from 100 yards away, bass frequencies are still bass frequencies.
That would not work unless there was a way to lower the sound as the locomotive moves farther away from the listener.
I have notice at low volumes my three sound equipped locomotives does fade as they move away and then silence as the cars pass unless the metal wheels is going over a rail joint or metal switch frog...
My thoughts is we should emulate the sound of cars especially when being switched this to will help fade the sound of the locomotive as it get farther away.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALI base all my detail requirements, weathering, and usefullness of effects like animation and sound on this simple rule - in real life what would I hear or see at 50' to 100'?
If the train is starting from a stop you will feel viberations in the ground and body.I first notice that when GP30s was new.
Detail wise about the same detail as a older Atlas Classic locomotive if stopped or if at track speed next to none.
Sound in MR'ing will continue to expand and explode whether in the locos, in a sound car or, for those who like being inside the mallet engine, pouring out of 100 watt amplifiers into 30 inch woofers over head in the ceiling.
It is and has always been technology limited. Technology changes rather quickly. I had always laughed at the idea of MR sound until about 2005. I knew technology would do it and those early systems, in train, were rather ludicrous.
Now? Well, it is a new ball game and we aren't even into the major league yet. Sound, in Train, is now good to very good in my opinion.
The speaker is the limitation now and not the electronics. The speaker gets its air moving power per unit sound watt input from the magnet and there are some incredible magnet structures that have not made it into tiny speakers yet.
As we must work with what we have, I tend to use the "super bass" neodymium magnet structured, small speaker offered by Soundtraxx and let it do what it can in a decent designed baffle structure. So many folks just slap a speaker in wherever it will fit and don't work on a baffling principle. They reap the reward of limited sound performance. Many manufacturers also don't seem to care much about this either.
Sound and its delivery will get better no matter how or where you like your sound coming from.