BRAKIE zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them. I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001. My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00. Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years.
zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them.
I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001.
My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00.
Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years.
This is where this is headed? A discussion on whether the Walthers book is a Catalog; or, Reference Book?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
zstripeAll the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them.
On the bottom of the cover, It states: Your Number One resource For Model Railroad Product Information. Has a nice Free wall calendar inside this year. My LHS gives me one every year. But I've been using His services for 45yrs.
Take Care!
Frank
PM Railfan NP i hope this doesnt add to your woes, but some of us call the Walthers catalog a 'bible'. And im not religeous. No offense.
NP i hope this doesnt add to your woes, but some of us call the Walthers catalog a 'bible'. And im not religeous. No offense.
I don't know if I'd call it a bible; however, I like to buy one every few years and page through to see some of what's available in this reference catalog!
Wrong!!!!!!!!! It is neither! It is really customer service and the way they treat you, who needs that. I am surprised the LHS lasted as long as it did, most (not all) were, are run so poorly. I had a buddy with me once and I was thinking about going into G scale for outside, buddy said he had a set and the owner started yelling at him for interupting a sale even though he knew I was with him.
Geared Steam NP2626 I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for! Because it is no longer available on a manufacturers website doesn't mean it is no longer available. The Walthers annual is referred as a "reference book" and not a catalog, ever wonder why? Reference is the key word here...the other is Google.
NP2626 I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for!
Because it is no longer available on a manufacturers website doesn't mean it is no longer available.
The Walthers annual is referred as a "reference book" and not a catalog, ever
wonder why?
Reference is the key word here...the other is Google.
So, you’re telling me now there is difference between catalogs and reference books. Wow, after 64 years you would think I’d have known that!
Also, if it is only a "reference book" meaning not necessarily items carried by Walthers (like a catalog) why doesn't it show Athearn and Roundhouse items, anymore?
NP2626I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for!
The Walthers annual is referred as a "reference book" and not a catalog, ever wonder why?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Ever watch Shark Tank? Kevin O'Leary is constantly pointing out that unless you have something proprietary, if there is any REAL money to be made, the big companies would simply step in, drive the little guys out and take over the market.
Since you can't patent a model of an N&W J-class 4-8-4, anybody can make one. If companies like BLI were getting rich selling them, the big boys would have squashed them long ago.
For the record, I don't have a major or minor in business. I just waste an hour in front of the TV on the occasional Friday night.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Last warning. No politics, or this thread gets yanked.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
blabride So as my Grandpa used to say the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. Steve B
So as my Grandpa used to say the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer.
Steve B
A good question would be: Is the upper 1% growing in numbers; or, are they still only 1%? I certainly know the poorer class is growing!
Now, now, keep politics out of the discussion, please.
Jim,
You are absolutely right about salaries. This is the main reason people voted how they did in November, according to several exit polls. While unemployment is lower than it's been since 2006, and the economy is growing at a healthy clip, heck even consumer confidence is higher than it's been in some time people feel poorer. Why, it's not inflation at only 1.6%, it's the fact that over the last 15 years salaries have stagnated at a staggering rate. In 2008 average salaries were 56,436. Today it's down to 51,939. That's lower than it's been since 1991. A year when you could by beautiful Overland brass SD40-2s for 175.00. Not only that, the top 5% has seen their accumulation of wealth rise from 54% to over 64% today.
I can agree with Jim, above. I remember walking into Hub Hobby in Richfield, MN and looking at the 30-50 Athearn locomotive kits in a display case, taking 20-30 minutes, taking my time considering which $25.00 locomotive I wanted to buy. This doesn't seem like it was that long ago, to me! However, I'm sure it's probably 15 years ago. $25.00 was really pretty painless back then!
I too am thankful I can build up the bank roll and buy an item I really want to have. It is fewer and farther between; but, I am still able. As far as locomotives are concerned, I am finding the maintenence of the 20 I have is becoming a bit of a chore! I'm thinking maybe I should narrow the locomotive stud down a few to ease this problem. We'll see!
Unobtainium!
It is a rational explanation that costs are tied to modern economic conditions vs. the olden days, and things like inflation and labor has driven the current price structures. I accept that and realize like anything, I can't afford everything I want, but I manage to find ways to afford some of what I want and just have to be patient and spend as I make money, or sell things off I don't need to pay for new things that cost more.
Maybe the only fly in the ointment, and this is in the news weekly, is that since the 2007 recession recovery has taken hold in the last couple years, salaries still lag far behind. So product prices have continued to rise fairly sharply, but our income has stagnated so it is otherwise harder to cope with those price increases.
But I am thankful for what I have and that I manage to afford a few nice new products and fill the gaps with some older cheaper items too.
Cheers, Jim
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
blabrideI seem to be in the minority here when I say the prices of trains today are completely in line with Economic trends of the last 60 years.
Steve,
Very thoughtful post and certainly in agreement with my own views. We have things today that are commonly available that were simply unobtanium at any price a few decades ago. In fact, it's fun to go back and read several old MR articles that did some crystal ball gazing into what future products we would have available someday. Those old school forecasts did pretty well.
I still need live onboard video links to my Blackstones, though, if I ever get ambitious.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Steven OtteBut if people want to surprise me and show that they can discuss the hobby's costs without getting into "Buy Amercian or your unpatroitic!!!1!" or "Unoins ruined manufactoring in this country!!!1!", then, by all means, do so. I'll be sitting here with my popcorn.
Thanks to Steve for keeping it real. It doesn't help to be acrimonious. The world is a complex place and learning more about it and how that applies to the hobby we love is useful. That requires learning more about what goes into making the wealth of models we enjoy.
I tend to think of even things that are ordinarily considered by me expensive as at least accessible in this hobby. Yeah, you might wish that passenger car or loco was cheaper, but it will almost always fit the budget with a little planning and maybe delaying something else, if it's really needed. Our hobby doesn't consist of a few expensive things, like say collecting Porsches, but a lot of items at variable costs. Those costs can range all the way down to zero, if one does have signifucant budget limitations. I've know lots of folks who can't afford much, but can afford model railroading, because lots of enjoyment can be had with realtively small investment.
Now, if you want the latest and greatest, it will cost you. MR is full of wonderfully attractive ads for new stuff every month and maybe that makes people think all of us here are buying all that stuff and they should be, too? But most of us don't buy a new car every year any more -- or ever did. And most of us get around just fine. Between used equipment, close-out specials, old kits, scratchbuilding, and just plan ol' budgeting, model railroading can cost as little as you want it to. There is a place for everyone of every means at this table, which is one reason why it's such a great hobby. There are very few hobbies like that, when you think about it -- polo, anyone?, and that's a fact we should appreciate more.
I think this is a good place to post this reply to an earlier post that was buried far down after most had walked away from it. I seem to be in the minority here when I say the prices of trains today are completely in line with Economic trends of the last 60 years. My line of work is Economics as I majored in it and have taught it for thirty years. On the other hand don't ask me where my keys are currently.
"Great discussion and thus far it's actually quite civil. Dave Nelson's comment about gasoline gave me a thought. I think value is also relative to a daily comparison of the things you own that are produced by multinational corporations that have spent the last 50 years perfecting economies of scale. Your cell phone, most appliances, that amazing 60 inch plasma tv were all purchased at way less prices than their not so practical or fun equivalents from just thirty years ago considering inflation. Heck even my new 2015 Subaru Wrx is light years better technology than my 1979 Hurst Olds Cutlass from 35 years ago. Also cheaper considering inflation, faster and safer. Salaries have also risen significantly over the same time frame. While I may make considerably more as a high school teacher than my mother did in the same field, we never think our income is enough.
However since our trains are not made by major multinational corporations the same advantages of economies of scale can not be taken advantage of. So yes as the detail, running abilities, paint, choice, dcc, and sound have been revolutionary the prices are sometimes higher than the value we see with our cars and consumer electronics"
NP2626, discussing the costs of model railroading isn't a "touchy subject." Remember, I started the thread "Model railroading on the cheap." If it were a touchy subject, I would have locked this thread or deleted it outright.
Rather, it's a topic that's been endlessly lamented by the same people over and over, one that absolutely nobody has anything new to say about, and one that almost always ends in bad feelings. Which is why I try to discourage the topic when it comes up. But if people want to surprise me and show that they can discuss the hobby's costs without getting into "Buy Amercian or your unpatroitic!!!1!" or "Unoins ruined manufactoring in this country!!!1!", then, by all means, do so. I'll be sitting here with my popcorn.
PM Railfan Steven Otte OK, OK, model train stuff is expensive. We KNOW. Been there, done that, got the commemorative enamel pin. Now move along, nothing (new) to see here. Steve.... how much did that pin cost?
Steven Otte OK, OK, model train stuff is expensive. We KNOW. Been there, done that, got the commemorative enamel pin. Now move along, nothing (new) to see here.
OK, OK, model train stuff is expensive. We KNOW. Been there, done that, got the commemorative enamel pin. Now move along, nothing (new) to see here.
Steve.... how much did that pin cost?
Far too much.
I can understand Model Railroaders position on these types of topics. It is their valued customers who are being talked about by their other valued customers, you and I. The magazine is D_mned if they do and D_mned if they don't.
This position the magazine is put in, makes discussions such as this one, almost untenable for the magazine. For that I am sorry! However, I don’t think it means these discussions should not be had. It’s just here, maybe cannot be the place! So, where does this leave us? From the standpoint of the magazine, I am asking Steven Otte to shut this discussion down by locking this thread. Why discussing model railroading equipment’s prices should be such a touchy subject, is beyond me. However, it is!
I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for! Per Mike Lehman, Athearn is going through some changes; so, possibly I should have shown a bit more patience with the company. Maybe their Tech. people quite, where fired; or, other and nobody knows how to do anything with the website. Excepting the Roundhouse brand of models, Horizon’s Model Railroading offerings really do not fit my needs.
I guess I have to agree with Steven Otte. Comparing a $25.00 U.S. made Athearn locomotive of15 to 25 years ago (still available at swap meets and on Ebay for $25.00 to $35.00, to what they are producing off-shore now for 10X that amount, probably doesn't make much sense. As to whether discussing model railroad equipment prices on a web forum devoted to model railroading, is relevant, I will let that be up to the reader and/or the moderator.
PM Railfan,For the record, I got the $150 for a single loco from BLI in person. It's a hybrid model, so it's mostly brass and die cast (and therefore, few injection moldings). That's what the Chinese are charging them. I also got the $150 fixed costs number from BLI as well. I did not pull these out of thin air, these are actual numbers that I was told. Now if they aren't lying to me (and I have no reason to suspect BLI would), and a loco costs them $300 ea. from beginning to delivery, how much do you think they should charge the wholesalers like Walthers, et al.?
If you were a manufacturer, and you imported a product that cost you $150 to make and $150 to import, what does your minor in Bus. Mgmt. tell you to sell it at to a wholesale distributer?
BTW, BLI also told me that the cost of labor in China has tripled in the past 5 years.
And who said anything about buying new machines? You should know that when I said "tooling", that means the actual molds used in the making of models, not towards the machines themselves.
Unless your name is "Bob Grubba", then you don't know the loco isn't $150. And it wasn't just $150, either, as that's just the cost of production. It cost another $150 on top of that, too. So it's actually a $300 engine in pure costs for a $700 MSRP. That's zero profit, and every product should make a profit, don't you think?
Paul A. Cutler III
rrinker NP2626 This thread has diverged from my original post, to people thinking I'm complaining about Athearn's prices, which I am not! I'm only complaining about their website. Do I think Athearn's prices are too high? I guess I think their prices are competitive with other company’s prices, which certainly do seem very high. However, because I want some of these products, at times, I will pay for the items at the best possible price I can get them for. Some of you jump to conclusions, which were not the original intent of the thread. I don’t know why these discussions are such “HOT” buttons with some of you. If you feel the subject has been beaten to death, why do you continue to post in them? If we continue down this road, Model Railroader's moderators will certainly close this thread! That is not how I intended this topic to go. Well you DID say "bring another overpriced item to market" so it sure SOUNDS like you were complaining about the prices. I doubt this would have denigrated to a discussion of prices had you left just that one line out - still would have made your point about not liking the web site, which is all the first bunch of replies were about anyway. Like I said - I think it is MUCH MUCH better that they have everything listed - expected new runs, current runs, and old stuff. I'd rather be able to find out something about the items I have then be stuck with a web site that shows only the current production runs. Atlas does this as well, so you cna find out when they made a particular road name and paint scheme. Life Like used to have this until Walthers took it away. Just because something is listed as out of stock because it was produced 10 years ago doesn't mean you can;t buy it - and save a lot of money in the process. Very little of what I have on my layout is 'current' production. You can find the older stuff on ebay or at train shows for pennies on the dollar - outside of a few specifics very few of my locomotives cost me over $40, even though they may have had MSRPs at the time of release of well over $100. Everyone gets sucked into the "gotta have it now" mentality and it would be stupid of manufacturers not to capitalize on this and crank up prices. All those "OMG, if you don;t preorder it, you'll never get one" cries? Wait 6 months after the item is "sold out" - there will be dozens of them on eBay! I got a long sold out Atlas Trainmaster, original MSRP $299 with sound, for $129. I got a long sold out PCM T-1, original MSRP $399 with sound, for $140. $100+ Proto 2000 Geeps? Under $40, for road names that hadn't been produced in years and were out of production and out of stock everywhere. --Randy
NP2626 This thread has diverged from my original post, to people thinking I'm complaining about Athearn's prices, which I am not! I'm only complaining about their website. Do I think Athearn's prices are too high? I guess I think their prices are competitive with other company’s prices, which certainly do seem very high. However, because I want some of these products, at times, I will pay for the items at the best possible price I can get them for. Some of you jump to conclusions, which were not the original intent of the thread. I don’t know why these discussions are such “HOT” buttons with some of you. If you feel the subject has been beaten to death, why do you continue to post in them? If we continue down this road, Model Railroader's moderators will certainly close this thread! That is not how I intended this topic to go.
Do I think Athearn's prices are too high? I guess I think their prices are competitive with other company’s prices, which certainly do seem very high. However, because I want some of these products, at times, I will pay for the items at the best possible price I can get them for.
Some of you jump to conclusions, which were not the original intent of the thread. I don’t know why these discussions are such “HOT” buttons with some of you. If you feel the subject has been beaten to death, why do you continue to post in them?
If we continue down this road, Model Railroader's moderators will certainly close this thread! That is not how I intended this topic to go.
Well you DID say "bring another overpriced item to market" so it sure SOUNDS like you were complaining about the prices. I doubt this would have denigrated to a discussion of prices had you left just that one line out - still would have made your point about not liking the web site, which is all the first bunch of replies were about anyway.
Like I said - I think it is MUCH MUCH better that they have everything listed - expected new runs, current runs, and old stuff. I'd rather be able to find out something about the items I have then be stuck with a web site that shows only the current production runs. Atlas does this as well, so you cna find out when they made a particular road name and paint scheme. Life Like used to have this until Walthers took it away.
Just because something is listed as out of stock because it was produced 10 years ago doesn't mean you can;t buy it - and save a lot of money in the process. Very little of what I have on my layout is 'current' production. You can find the older stuff on ebay or at train shows for pennies on the dollar - outside of a few specifics very few of my locomotives cost me over $40, even though they may have had MSRPs at the time of release of well over $100. Everyone gets sucked into the "gotta have it now" mentality and it would be stupid of manufacturers not to capitalize on this and crank up prices. All those "OMG, if you don;t preorder it, you'll never get one" cries? Wait 6 months after the item is "sold out" - there will be dozens of them on eBay! I got a long sold out Atlas Trainmaster, original MSRP $299 with sound, for $129. I got a long sold out PCM T-1, original MSRP $399 with sound, for $140. $100+ Proto 2000 Geeps? Under $40, for road names that hadn't been produced in years and were out of production and out of stock everywhere.
--Randy
O.K. you talked me into taking that tack with this thread! So, I do think Athearn's current stuff is overpriced. I'm the only person on this forum who thinks this way, so I absolutly must be wrong!
So, now I think their website is pretty worthless and they charge to much, are you sure this is what I want to say, Randy?
NP2626My opinion; Don't waste your time by going there, very little mentioned in their website is available! I guess I'm supposed to wait with bated breath while they bring another overpriced item to market! This sure wasn't Irv's idea of how you do business and it ain't mine either!
If you are speaking of the Athearn main website, I use it all the time to check products against which I may be buying on HOSwap, HOExchange, Ebay etc. I can simply enter in the part number and click on the check box for "view retired models" and you can see what they were/are.
Yes, most of what is listed is out of stock because they show everything going back for years, and of course the goal of most companies is to sell everything and not have it sitting around collecting dust. Understanding helps us not have unrealistic feelings about what is on a website - and Athearn does display generally what they have still in stock, which are usually items procuced recently, in the last year, or so.
Personally I'm a HUGE fan of Athearn as they make alot of stuff I like and is generally accurate, especially for western rail fans. I think their website is good and very useful as a resource. It helps if you learn how to search it effectively. Like anything worth having, there can be a little bit of a learning curve but it's not that hard.
Cheers, Jim Fitch
While I appreciate the fact that the prices in this hobby may seem high to some, the reality is they are what sustains the constant flow of new items that is the hobby's lifeblood. There has never been so much available to choose from. Take a peak at MR from 30, 40, or 50 years ago. Surprisingly little changed over that time. Sure, in the 70s prices went up, like they did in the rest of the economy. It took another 20 years or so to find a formula that works, but there's little doubt that what some see as high prices also is what made this cornucopeia of goodies available.
Some may believe that taking away much of the profit, keeping the same model on the shelves for years at a time, and having most shops charge full MSRP will lead to a better hobby. Well, maybe, so long as your vision of the hobby is stuck in 1975.
Thos who know me personally know I'm no knee-jerk defender of capitalism. But I think it's working pretty well for us here.
It's important to remember that our beloved trains are far from being a necessity of life. They are, in fact, a luxury good purchased with discretionary income. The rules of this market are decidedly different than those governing commodities or the market for things like the latest phone or car.
Most importantly, for those who believe the rules of high finance and sharp, Walmart-style pricing should apply, our hobby is a very tiny, even insignificant cul du sac in modern life. Those producing for it do so in search of profit. Cutting MSRP $100 across the board sounds great as a consumer, at first anyway. But if that was the case, then a lot of the manufacturing and importing infrastucture would likely whither away in short order. The market isn't big enough to sustain itself on the razor-thin margins many industries do. There's no bali-out in the works as if the hobby were like the auto biz a few years back.
Finally, for all the complaining about price, those runs continue to sell out regularly. A whole lot of consumers seem just fine with the pricing. While the theory of complaining about pricing may be based on the belief that the squeaky wheel may get the grease, in reality the squeaky wheel may need to get a second job or revise their hobby expectations to better fit current economic realities.
The parts listing is a joke. Others have parts breakdowns per model then a list which pertains to that item . Athearn has a long convoluted list.
Jim
Prices always go up due to inflation.
The reason they seem so much higher now is that middle class income has not kept up. And since hobby dollars come after food, clothing, shelter that's where the budget gets balanced. So yes, the rich are getting richer while the rest of us are losing ground. This means a lot less to spend on the hobby. Fortunately, you can still find some great prices at train shows - Athearn and MDC kits under $10, sometimes as low as $4.
Paul