RioGrande5761, It is how business works and has been how business here in the U.S. has worked for a long-long time!
I will admit to everyone I have a bone to pick with Horizon Hobbies that has nothing to do with their owning Athearn/Roundhouse and I will not expound upon here. Suffice it to say that there are extenuating circumstances which effect my opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, Right?
All of you who are happy with Athearn, I am glad for you, I really am!
Beyond what I have just alluded to above, I find little in what they have to offer, that I need/want. I have not bought an Athearn model since long before the Blue Box disapeared from the hobby shop shelves.
I started this thread from the position of thinking that a website that I would assume a company uses for sales, and leads to stuff that is no longer available, is worthless. It has been pointed out to me that the website’s purpose is not sales; but, a list of products formerly sold. I’ve learned something, don’t necessarily agree with it; but, thanks for pointing that out to me.
Opinions are like (What), everyone has one and they all (What)? Yes, I am from the old school and plan to stay there. So, it is what it is!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 My position is: What is good for the customer, is good for the manufacturer, not the otherway around.
My position is: What is good for the customer, is good for the manufacturer, not the otherway around.
That works for me. Athearn has been making whats good for me, the customer - and I have been patronizing them in spades. It looks like many others have too - which is why most of their stock has all sold out - getting back to the original top and coming full circle.
This isn't an old way of looking at things, this is the ONLY way of looking at things!
I guess I better conform if there is only one way. =(
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My position is: What is good for the customer, is good for the manufacturer, not the otherway around. This isn't an old way of looking at things, this is the ONLY way of looking at things!
NP2626 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Single point distribution is the way of the future - and it might just save this industry. Sheldon Sounds very good for the manufacturer and small distribution companies, and not too good for the larger distributors and end user/customer (you and me). If this is better, I guess I prefer worser!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Single point distribution is the way of the future - and it might just save this industry. Sheldon
Single point distribution is the way of the future - and it might just save this industry.
Sheldon
Sounds very good for the manufacturer and small distribution companies, and not too good for the larger distributors and end user/customer (you and me).
If this is better, I guess I prefer worser!
The thing is, what is good for business in this case is ultimately good for us, the consumer/modeler. If a business cannot survive with the old model, and go out of business, everyone loses.
Change is hard for folks used to the old ways, but no change would be far worse in the long run. I'm getting old enough that I too grumble about having to change methods, but I can see the sense when the logic is explained.
The same situation occured when ExactRail dropped selling through distributers and shops and went single source. People who were used to seeing a model in person before buying were not happy. In reality, there were relatively few who could do that anyway due to lack of LHS's and ER can give you large hi res photo's so you can see what the models look like almost better than in person. They have free shipping over $50 and great customer service. It seems to be ok.
Cheers, Jim
ATLANTIC CENTRAL NP2626 - what is wrong with a manufacturer also being the sole distributor of their product? Lot of products go directly from the manufacturers to the dealers without "distributors". It is not a new idea - Electrolux, Kirby, Walthers - that's right, Walthers. Sheldon
Paul,
My local dealer says Horizon has no monthly minimums? He is very small and keeps virtually no Athearn in stock - he does order a fair amount for several customers including myself. He does not order much of anything other than Athearn from Horizon.
When I ran a train department in the 80's, not one of our suppliers had monthly minimums - including Walthers.
They did have minimum order sizes for free shipping.
They did have minimum order sizes for extra discounts, special extended billing, etc.
Some did have minimum first orders for new accounts, which generally required a letter of credit from the bank.
But I have never heard of a distributor having a "monthly minumum" to do business with them.
We had accounts with a dozen or more suppliers, but mainly used four, three local to this region.
Anyone trying to run a shop today dealing with only one or two distributors simply does not have a shot - how do you get products not stocked by that one source?
Again Walthers never sold their products through other distributors?
In this current market, I don't see how anyone can make any money buying from distributors anyway - other than Walthers and Horizon.
Bachmann will sell direct to most anyone, Intermountain is now like Walthers, a combo manufaturer/distributor, as is Bowser, and ConCor, and many others.
As I said above, your volume may effect getting the lowest price, but it does not effect being able to buy at some basic wholesale price level.
Sheldon,You left one one significant negative factor from the single point distributor idea: every LHS now has to maintain multiple accounts in order to fully stock their store.
No big deal? Heh. It might be if it wasn't for the monthly minimum orders to the tune of several thousand dollars. Before, one could maintain that minimum because a dealer bought all their stock from one distributor (Walthers, for example). But now with Horizon being exclusive with Athearn, and Walthers being exclusive for their products, it means that an LHS has to maintain at least two monthly minimums. This proves impossible for a lot of shops, and they have to drop one or the other. I don't see this as a positive, and I doubt you can find any dealers who prefer it that way.
What saved this industry was limited runs, but few want to admit that.
Dennis,If it was all useless, then why'd you post here? Why don't you start a useful thread instead of complaining about this one?
Paul A. Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRAL summed things up nicely. My only peeve is that the 'Show Retired Items' option is off by default so I only see upcoming or in stock models, but that is not a big issue.
Recently Athearn has been doing a nice job with product information. Most models have high quality pictures, a good list of features/details and also have approximate eras listed. I can't say the same for some other manufacturers.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Horizon decided to use single point distribution when they bought ATHEARN. If you ask most dealers, they will tell you that is a good thing and likely saved ATHEARN. It surely lowered costs and more importantly helped small dealers since everyone selling Athearn must pay the same wholesale price from Horizon. In the old days, some big dealers bought Athearn direct and could offer big discounts, others had to buy from distributors and could not afford to discount much. Now dealers of all sizes are on a nearly equal pricing structure. That may be true in terms of dealers of all sizes being on a nearly equal pricing structure when purchasing from Horizon, since everyone selling Athearn must pay the same wholesale price from Horizon. But, big dealers can, and still do, sell to hobbyists at lower prices than do smaller dealers. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Horizon decided to use single point distribution when they bought ATHEARN. If you ask most dealers, they will tell you that is a good thing and likely saved ATHEARN. It surely lowered costs and more importantly helped small dealers since everyone selling Athearn must pay the same wholesale price from Horizon. In the old days, some big dealers bought Athearn direct and could offer big discounts, others had to buy from distributors and could not afford to discount much. Now dealers of all sizes are on a nearly equal pricing structure.
Horizon decided to use single point distribution when they bought ATHEARN. If you ask most dealers, they will tell you that is a good thing and likely saved ATHEARN.
It surely lowered costs and more importantly helped small dealers since everyone selling Athearn must pay the same wholesale price from Horizon.
In the old days, some big dealers bought Athearn direct and could offer big discounts, others had to buy from distributors and could not afford to discount much.
Now dealers of all sizes are on a nearly equal pricing structure.
That may be true in terms of dealers of all sizes being on a nearly equal pricing structure when purchasing from Horizon, since everyone selling Athearn must pay the same wholesale price from Horizon.
But, big dealers can, and still do, sell to hobbyists at lower prices than do smaller dealers.
Rich
Rich, If you follow the prices of Athearn closely, you will see that the differences between the "Big Boys" and some of the better small or mid size dealers is very small.
Higher volume dealers do get some extra discounts, but those discounts are now single digit percentages, not the 20-30% difference under the old distribution system.
And we know that any high volume business may be willing to work on a slightly smaller margin, especially on a product line of high interest/volume.
NP2626 - what is wrong with a manufacturer also being the sole distributor of their product? Lot of products go directly from the manufacturers to the dealers without "distributors". It is not a new idea - Electrolux, Kirby, Walthers - that's right, Walthers.
Back in the day, when I ran a train department in a hobby shop, and we bought Athearn from four different distributors, you could only buy the products Walthers manufactured directly from them - but you could buy everyone elses product from them........
Through out the history of this hobby, nearly every small startup began with single point distribution, selling directly to the hobby shops, or the public, until they were big enough to need/want distributors and until the distributors wanted them.
Then, especially in the 70's and 80's, Walthers started buying up lots of small companies and bringing their products under their manufacture and control. some have since been sold off by Walthers - Ulrich die cast trucks comes to mind.
I understand your frustration with not knowing what is "available" - I share that frustration - but it is the way of the future.
The internet, modern transportation networks and modern warehousing methods, make single point distribution very practical and effective - Athearn develops it, China makes it, Horizon ships it to the dealers - large or small, the consumer buys it.
It means it is less likely that the last one of a piece of rolling stock that you want will be sitting in a distributors warehouse on the wrong side of the country, that your dealer would never know about let alone order from.
It also means all the product is either on the shelf at Horizon or on the shelf of a retailer - or it has been sold. That just seems better for the consumer, and likely better for the dealers too.
My local hobby shop, a very small operation, sells me Athearn at prices very similar to Train World, and says he makes a fair markup at that price.
I regularly give him a list of Athearn and just say "order these".
My lists are based on Horizon in stock info or expected delivery dates of new products. He usually gets most everything I order.
rdgk1se3019 Three pages of useless CRAP. Just because someone said that a website was junk. What a waste of perfectly good electron`s
Three pages of useless CRAP.
Just because someone said that a website was junk.
What a waste of perfectly good electron`s
You could have quit reading on page 1.
Paul
Alton Junction
NP2626 Wow and some think I get up from the wrong side of the bed!
Wow and some think I get up from the wrong side of the bed!
It`s not you......it`s all the other responses that had nothing to do with your original post.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
I guess everything I learned in my 31 years in business for myself is now totally superseded by some fuzzy new American ways of thinking and running businesses!
Athearn products are not sold by ANY other distributors any more - as a dealer you can only buy ATHEARN directly from Horizon.
Walthers is both a manufacturer and distributor, but Horizon decided to use single point distribution when they bought ATHEARN. If you ask most dealers, they will tell you that is a good thing and likely saved ATHEARN.
Once Walthers bought Train Minature in the 80's and got into the plastic rolling stock business, they never gave Athearn good representation in the Catalog anyway.
BRAKIE NP2626 BRAKIE NP2626 Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers? None of the above..Horizon ended that deal because Walthers is a distributor competitor.No use sharing a slice of the distribution pie when you're already a distributor that happens to own Athearn.. Horizon Hobbies IS Athearn! No,Athearn is owned by Horizon and they put Athearn in charge of the model railroad items.. That is why Athearn produts was removed from Horizon's web page and Athearn has its on web page now. Horizon also owns R/C manufaturers.
NP2626 BRAKIE NP2626 Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers? None of the above..Horizon ended that deal because Walthers is a distributor competitor.No use sharing a slice of the distribution pie when you're already a distributor that happens to own Athearn.. Horizon Hobbies IS Athearn!
BRAKIE NP2626 Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers? None of the above..Horizon ended that deal because Walthers is a distributor competitor.No use sharing a slice of the distribution pie when you're already a distributor that happens to own Athearn..
NP2626 Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers?
None of the above..Horizon ended that deal because Walthers is a distributor competitor.No use sharing a slice of the distribution pie when you're already a distributor that happens to own Athearn..
Horizon Hobbies IS Athearn!
No,Athearn is owned by Horizon and they put Athearn in charge of the model railroad items..
That is why Athearn produts was removed from Horizon's web page and Athearn has its on web page now.
Horizon also owns R/C manufaturers.
Horizon owns Athearn. If you go to Horizon, there is a link to Athearn. If you go to Athearn, there is a link to Horizon. I can believe that one divisoin of company can maybe operate autonomously from the other, in small things; however; Horizon is the parent company and the choice to not have Athearn and Roundhouse in the Walthers book was decided by Horizon, as like you said, horizon is a hobby distributor just like Walthers is.
BRAKIE, I think we should be on the same page now, if not, let’s move on anyway!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761 Rich I removed that comment regarding loyalty because it really did not apply to the your post which I was responding to. Please disregard. FYI - it was removed before I even saw your reply.
I removed that comment regarding loyalty because it really did not apply to the your post which I was responding to. Please disregard. FYI - it was removed before I even saw your reply.
NP2626Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers?
riogrande5761Like I said before, a lot of what is sold out at Athearn is still out there in some shops and also on the secondary market.
Absolutely! My newest "treasures" is 2 gray Guilford FMC 5347 50' boxcars that was release in 2008 that I picked up used for $10.00 each-another long hunt ends with success.
richhotrain riogrande5761 richhotrain Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread. Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition. Rich It's not about loyalty to one company or another. My comment relates to the fact that when Athearn, a large manufacturer of model railroading equipment was pulled from the Walthers Reference Book, the Walthers book lost its mystique as the so-called "bible" of model railroad supply. It was no longer a complete reference book. Rich
riogrande5761 richhotrain Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread. Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition. Rich
richhotrain Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread. Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition. Rich
Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread.
Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition.
It's not about loyalty to one company or another.
My comment relates to the fact that when Athearn, a large manufacturer of model railroading equipment was pulled from the Walthers Reference Book, the Walthers book lost its mystique as the so-called "bible" of model railroad supply. It was no longer a complete reference book.
I think I know the answer to this question; however, what do you guys have to say:
Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers?
It doesn't bother me one bit. The reason I stopped buying the occasional copy of Walthers catelog is the rise of the internet. My last copy was purchased in 1999 and since then I can find out most of what I need on line.
I don't have any special loyalty to either company. I like to buy from whoever makes from what I need, variety is a good thing and to have a fleet that most represents a particular RR and era, that is best done if we avail ourselves of many different brands. It's a good thing.
Getting back to the OT, Athearns website is fine - they show pretty much everything they have made since the last 12 years approximately, which is a good thing. Like I said before, a lot of what is sold out at Athearn is still out there in some shops and also on the secondary market. I frequently check the website when I am considering something being sold by a vendor or a private seller on the auction site or HOSwap or HOExchange. With the part number I can usually positively identify a product. That can also be done, BTW, on Walthers website too.
So between Walthers and Athearn you can cover most major products. Everyone wins IMO.
NP2626 BRAKIE zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them. I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001. My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00. Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years. This is where this is headed? A discussion on whether the Walthers book is a Catalog; or, Reference Book?
BRAKIE zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them. I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001. My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00. Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years.
zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them.
I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001.
My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00.
Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years.
This is where this is headed? A discussion on whether the Walthers book is a Catalog; or, Reference Book?
It kinda ties in with web pages like Athearns,Walthers,Atlas and other manufacturer's sites.These web sites is used for reference in today's preorder world that has little in stock supply..
Athearn's web page is easy to use as reference but,lacks a detailed parts lists like it should have.