My opinion; Don't waste your time by going there, very little mentioned in their website is available! I guess I'm supposed to wait with bated breath while they bring another overpriced item to market! This sure wasn't Irv's idea of how you do business and it ain't mine either!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Feel better now?
I get emails from Athearn every so often about new releases.
I know how to shop online for better prices.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
As Rich suggests, learn how to shop.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
They show everything, so you can research prior releases as well as the current stuff. That's something that ticks me off about Walthers, before they aquired Life Like, LL had a section on their site to see all the older releases. Since Walthers aquired them and did away with the seperate web site, no more LL historical information. Unless they've hidden it all somewhere.
It's good to have that information available, especially since many times the road name I'm looking for was 3 or 4 releases ago, and I come across it on eBay or at a train show.
Atlas does a pretty good job of providing information on prior releases as well.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Been to that site NP, wasnt impressed either. But not for the same reasons. I wasnt looking for anything particular, was just surfing the trains sites.
What really turns me off now a days is it seems like everything is owned by BNSF now. Not to mention, everything has a safety cab and bat wings. It all looks alike, monotoned. No flavor, no soul.
IMHO the only good looking loco with bat wings was the SD45. Like most of the other posts have said, it may be time to alter the shopping habits. Seems because of the loss of the LHS and the godzilla sized gouging of prices has forced us all into this boat. (except for those who dont mind getting taken for a $200 loco or $50+ passenger car)
Overpriced shouldnt be limited to just Horizon Hobbies (Athearn), its pretty much everyone today - BLI, Walthers, Atlas, Bachmann, the list goes on. Your right, this IS NOT what Irv had in mind, and I bet you any brass model of your choice he IS rolling in his grave!
Unfortunately, we as customers, cant do a thing about it except GO SOMEWHERE ELSE to spend our money. IF, we spend it at all. I would suggest you try the same thing. See if that helps any. Probably wont, but it beats getting taken by these 'robber barons'.
Yes, they do have models that have recently sold out of Athearn's stock. However, many LHS, and also the online stores like train world still have these models in stock. It is nice because you can look on Athearn's website for what you want and then go to your LHS, or an internet store.
Besides, Athearn sells models off their website at MSRP, which allows LHSs to be competitive. If you are buying online, you can save several bucks (sometimes even $40-$100) by buying from a site like train world.
If you are want to by from Athearn directly and don't want to see out of stock items, either A) do an advance search for your road name and click the box for in stock only, which is preferred), or B) click the in stock only button on the side bar when you are looking through the pages. However both of these techniques will prevent you from seeing the models that are going to be released soon. If you want to see new models, either sign up for their newsletter, or look under the what's new tab at the beginning of each month.
The current announcements can be found on Athearn's web site under what's new-Arrivals and Announcements.
And for older releases all that is needed is to check the "View Retired Models" box.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
KyleAthearn sells models off their website at MSRP, which allows LHSs to be competitive. If you are buying online, you can save several bucks (sometimes even $40-$100) by buying from a site like train world.
Good point. Would you want Athearn to be undercutting the LHS? Probably not.
Keep in mind Athearn has both gone through some significant staffing changes in the last year (I don't think they're back to fully staffed yet) and Horizon decided to quit competing directly with dealers on its website. To a certain extent, they were linked together previously and I'm not sure they've completely disentangled them. Last I visited that seemed to be still in evidence, but haven't stopped by lately.
Such things as websites seem easy and cheap, but are often more complex and expensive than they first appear. They can appear especially dated right before they undergo a major make-over, so it's possible that's due.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Geared Steam As Rich suggests, learn how to shop.
I didn't buy anything, must know how to shop! I only went there to look for parts. They didn't have what I wanted, noticed that in most cases what they show as products they produce(ed) have no information about them, as in it's old news, shoulda been here yesterday, last year, three years ago, whatever!
The real Athearn and MDC Roundhouse used to be very high on my list of good producers of quality products. Not so much anymore. I have very little respect for Horizon Hopbbies, not just from this hobby; but, the others I have been involved with over my lifetime.
PM Railfan Been to that site NP, wasnt impressed either. But not for the same reasons. I wasnt looking for anything particular, was just surfing the trains sites. What really turns me off now a days is it seems like everything is owned by BNSF now. Not to mention, everything has a safety cab and bat wings. It all looks alike, monotoned. No flavor, no soul. IMHO the only good looking loco with bat wings was the SD45. Like most of the other posts have said, it may be time to alter the shopping habits. Seems because of the loss of the LHS and the godzilla sized gouging of prices has forced us all into this boat. (except for those who dont mind getting taken for a $200 loco or $50+ passenger car) Overpriced shouldnt be limited to just Horizon Hobbies (Athearn), its pretty much everyone today - BLI, Walthers, Atlas, Bachmann, the list goes on. Your right, this IS NOT what Irv had in mind, and I bet you any brass model of your choice he IS rolling in his grave! Unfortunately, we as customers, cant do a thing about it except GO SOMEWHERE ELSE to spend our money. IF, we spend it at all. I would suggest you try the same thing. See if that helps any. Probably wont, but it beats getting taken by these 'robber barons'.
Robber barons? Seriously! Do you not realize that by charging MSRP on their website, Athearn is keeping LHSs in buisness. Athearn allows LHSs to charge the same price as the online store, and still make a profit. Athearn could lower their prices on their website, but that would drive LHSs out of buisness.
By buying through your LHS, you redistribute the wealth, the employees have a job and get paid. By buying online, you are just giving more money to the people you call robber barons, and making the employees of the LHS jobless.
"Good point. Would you want Athearn to be undercutting the LHS?"
Your dog gone right i would like to see it. Then Id like to see Horizon drops its prices. Then Athearn again, then Horizon one more time. And on and on until they finally get down to the price their models should ACTUALLY be sold at. Then Athearn could finish the war with a slightly higher price. Dont forget, the high prices is the #1 killer of the LHS, NOT the internet as everyone thinks! That comes in a pale #2 against the prices.
That price war wouldnt hurt either company, and would certainly get models sold. Unless you like paying todays overprices.
NP2626 Geared Steam As Rich suggests, learn how to shop. I didn't buy anything, must know how to shop! I only went there to look for parts. They didn't have what I wanted, noticed that in most cases what they show as products they produce(ed) have no information about them, as in it's old news, shoulda been here yesterday, last year, three years ago, whatever! The real Athearn and MDC Roundhouse used to be very high on my list of good producers of quality products. Not so much anymore. I have very little respect for Horizon Hopbbies, not just from this hobby; but, the others I have been involved with over my lifetime.
You are complaining about modern ways, and you say old ways were better.
Here is a good old idea, pick up the phone and call customer service.
Kyle NP2626 Geared Steam As Rich suggests, learn how to shop. I didn't buy anything, must know how to shop! I only went there to look for parts. They didn't have what I wanted, noticed that in most cases what they show as products they produce(ed) have no information about them, as in it's old news, shoulda been here yesterday, last year, three years ago, whatever! The real Athearn and MDC Roundhouse used to be very high on my list of good producers of quality products. Not so much anymore. I have very little respect for Horizon Hopbbies, not just from this hobby; but, the others I have been involved with over my lifetime. You are complaining about modern ways, and you say old ways were better. Here is a good old idea, pick up the phone and call customer service.
Wow, I guess if you were never there you really wouldn't know that things acturally where better, back in the day!
I guess I don't really need anything from this company! So, why would I call!
Good grief, I simply stated an opinion!
"Robber barons? Seriously! Do you not realize that by charging MSRP on their website, Athearn is keeping LHSs in buisness. Athearn allows LHSs to charge the same price as the online store, and still make a profit. Athearn could lower their prices on their website, but that would drive LHSs out of buisness.
By buying through your LHS, you redistribute the wealth, the employees have a job and get paid. By buying online, you are just giving more money to the people you call robber barons, and making the employees of the LHS jobless."
You dont get how business works do you? If Athearn is the manufacturer and they offer a lower price, well duh, the LHC is going to get a lower price in line with it. And since they buy in bulk, the price is even lower.
So no matter what Athearn charges, the LHC can be right there with it. A pinch higher or lower wont matter. The point is, BOTH are charging way too much. It starts with Athearn, since they make the product. As long as they stay high, so will the LHS. If Ath goes lower, so will the LHS. Thats how it works. Always has, always will.
Dont worry, shaving $100 off their prices still yields a huge profit. Take a good look at what a model is made of, and how its made. Then understand how using foreign companies plays into it. Especially if the folks there are making models for pennies an hour compared to our manufacturing. OH YEAH, it really costs a bundle to make a model.
If you thinking todays prices produce minimum profit, and it really takes $200 to sell a loco. Well, you just keep paying that my friend because I have a few bridges to sell you!
PM Railfan "Robber barons? Seriously! Do you not realize that by charging MSRP on their website, Athearn is keeping LHSs in buisness. Athearn allows LHSs to charge the same price as the online store, and still make a profit. Athearn could lower their prices on their website, but that would drive LHSs out of buisness. By buying through your LHS, you redistribute the wealth, the employees have a job and get paid. By buying online, you are just giving more money to the people you call robber barons, and making the employees of the LHS jobless." You dont get how business works do you? If Athearn is the manufacturer and they offer a lower price, well duh, the LHC is going to get a lower price in line with it. And since they buy in bulk, the price is even lower. So no matter what Athearn charges, the LHC can be right there with it. A pinch higher or lower wont matter. The point is, BOTH are charging way too much. It starts with Athearn, since they make the product. As long as they stay high, so will the LHS. If Ath goes lower, so will the LHS. Thats how it works. Always has, always will. Dont worry, shaving $100 off their prices still yields a huge profit. Take a good look at what a model is made of, and how its made. Then understand how using foreign companies plays into it. Especially if the folks there are making models for pennies an hour compared to our manufacturing. OH YEAH, it really costs a bundle to make a model. If you thinking todays prices produce minimum profit, and it really takes $200 to sell a loco. Well, you just keep paying that my friend because I have a few bridges to sell you!
I am talking about the prices on Athearns website. Athearn sells the models to the hobby shops for a lower price (wholesale price). If Athearn were to sell models from their website at the whole sale price, they would put LHSs out of buisness.
Now if we want to go and talk about just prices, then yes, prices are high and could be lowered. Granted cost of building a model have gone up with DCC ready, highly detailed, inflation, etc. But they could still lower the prices.
Personally, I wouldn't mind the prices they are charging if their products were made in the US (and don't say anything about high cost, look at Accurail). But those cheap <insert name here> want to make their stuff in China and charge high prices, which is insane. It is bad when you have a few QC issues to increase your profit a small percent more.
NP2626 My opinion; Don't waste your time by going there, very little mentioned in their website is available! I guess I'm supposed to wait with bated breath while they bring another overpriced item to market! This sure wasn't Irv's idea of how you do business and it ain't mine either!
Are you talking about the Athearn web site or the Horizon store web site?
This web site, http://www.athearn.com/ the Athearn site, is not intended to be a store, it is a product informantion web site and provides lots of info on recently produced items so people can shop for them after they are sold out Athearn but are still likely in the "supply chain" somewhere.
Personally, I think Athearns prices are just fine, considering most retailers sell Athearn at about 20% off the list prices.
Athearn remains the primary rolling stock on my layout - from early metal kits, to yellow box and blue box plastic kits and now Ready to Roll items.
Most of the more expensive Genesis line is out of my 1950's era, but a good portion of the RTR line is simply upgraded versions of Athearn and MDC kits from the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's.
They have large number of reasonably accurate models for my transition era layout - at reasonable prices.
A quick review of a 1983 Walther Catalog shows most of the Blue box kits priced between $3 and $5.
Adjusted for inflation $4 then is $10 now - BUT, those same cars now have metal wheels, kunckle couplers, and MUCH better paint jobs, and are generally priced at about $20 MSRP, with a street price of about $16.
Some are more expensive than that, but have been upgraded with better tooling and more details, in additon to the improvments listed above.
I think they are still an excelent value, and I have hundreds built from blue box kits, and hundereds bought RTR.
Sheldon
NP2626I only went there to look for parts. They didn't have what I wanted, noticed that in most cases what they show as products they produce(ed) have no information about them, as in it's old news, shoulda been here yesterday, last year, three years ago, whatever!
Ah boy..Parts..Not hard to get but,a royal pain..You see Athearn does not list all their parts like the old days so,you e-mail the part number to the parts department and ask the price and then order it..
Better way.
I found the best way is to get the part number from the instruction sheet or Athearn and e-mail or call the hobby shop and have him to order the parts for me from Athearn..
NP2626,Yes, comparitively little listed on Athearn's page is currently available. Why? Because every model made since 1999 is on it. Do you have any idea how many models that is? Athearn, in the modern era, releases approx. 500 different loco models a year. Each year they are different from the year before, with different paint schemes and/or numbers (and with and without sound). The retail value of these 500 different loco models is approx. $130,000. If you multiply that out for 15 years, then you think that Athearn should be warehousing almost $2 million worth of product right now...just in case someone down the road might want one? That's only one copy of each loco made...and we haven't even brought up rolling stock.
Back in 1971, well back into the Irv era, Athearn made 275 different loco models with a retail value of $2800 ($16,000 in today's money). And guess what? He made that same old stuff, year after year after year. Same old paint schemes. Same old numbers. For decades! I could purchase the same Athearn F7A shell in 1991 that was made in 1971. And you think that's good business?
Randy,IRT the death of the old LL website, use the Internet Wayback Machine:http://archive.org/web/ and search for www.lifelikeproducts.comThe archive saves random "snap shots" of websites and stores them. You can search them by date. Some of the links and many of the pics are gone, but you can usually figure out what's going on. Just remember that you have to go back before June 2005 as that's when Walthers bought out LL.
I also use www.hoseeker.net for a lot of historical data.
PM Railfan,Everything's owned by BNSF? Might want to talk to UP, CP, CN, NS, CSX or KCS about that.
Yes, everything has a safety cab and radiator wings. Yesterday, everything was a hood unit. Before that, everything was a cab unit. In the 1800's, everything was a 4-4-0. One can always find simularities in motive power by era.
You have no idea how much models cost to make these days, do you? A first rate passenger car will easily cost you $80,000 just for tooling, and you still have to pay to shoot and assemble the cars after that.
I know you have no idea how business works, especially the model railroading business. Let's take a BLI hybrid steam engine at $700 MSRP. How much do you think BLI gets? The Chinese charge them $150 per loco. BLI has $150 in fixed costs, which includes shipping and tooling. They turn around and sell it to Walthers, et al, for $350. Walthers sells it to the LHS for $420. The LHS sells it to the consumer for $560. How much profit does BLI make for selling a $700 engine? $50. That's it. And you still think they charge too much?
Paul A. Cutler III
Quoted:
End Quote
Wow, Paul, if i didnt know any better I should prolly be butt hurt on that one. However, since you do not know me personally then you wouldnt know that i have a minor in bus. mgmt. That i have spent many hours on books concerning purchasing, selling, shipping, recieving, essentially $$$. i know what something costs. Profit, loss, expenses, projections, assests, yep.... been there done that!
You wouldnt know Ive actually hand my hands on an injection molding machine, or even that i have actually seen molds made. BTW, they dont buy a new machine when they intro a new model. ANY company will tell you they make new molds so they DONT have to buy new expensive machines (not saying they dont buy new machines, they do. just not as you mentioned). How would i know that? Because I personally have been there, done that too.
You wouldnt know I have a major in mechanical technologies. Probably explains why there is a spool of copper winding sitting right next to me (the wire you make motors with). Ofcourse, your probably not aware that i personally happen to know, making loco chassis is not rocket science. Which stands to reason the materials used in loco model making are extremely abundant, and dirt cheap. But dont think for a minute i know this.
Matter of fact, i wouldnt know what temperature and humidity even have to do with model making? Do you? How would i know all these things including what it takes to do it, and the cost of the process. A/C and heating aint cheap machines either!
It certainly cant be because im just such the perfect a$$ of a person (which hey, i will admit first... i AM!) that ive actually called, corresponded, and even toured such places that would endeavor to make models. And im not talking your everyday museum tours but the kind where your talking about everything except company secrets. Kinda like a cab ride from a friendly crew. How would you know that Ive been there..... done that.
Cliche as this post may be I hate having to post my personal info. But i have treaded too many years in this business for someone, anyone to say i dont know jack about what i may post. I may not know how to put a man on the moon, or solve the worlds hunger problems, but i know trains, how they are made, and what they are worth! been there, done that!
The loco isnt $150 to begin with. There is the problem, but i wouldnt know that. And it just snowballs price wise as your example states each time its passed on. Its not so much the outlets as it is the original manufacturers. Not even you mentioned that. Again you wouldnt know I am totally aware of the main problem here. Funny no one else is.
in conclusion, by your example of a $150 loco, that got passed around 3 times until it went for $560, if you want to pay +300% in mark up (you call it profit) and get one loco when you could have had 4 for that price, well my friend, nice to meet you, but it aint me that dont know jack!
Do I think Athearn's prices are too high? I guess I think their prices are competitive with other company’s prices, which certainly do seem very high. However, because I want some of these products, at times, I will pay for the items at the best possible price I can get them for.
Some of you jump to conclusions, which were not the original intent of the thread. I don’t know why these discussions are such “HOT” buttons with some of you. If you feel the subject has been beaten to death, why do you continue to post in them?
If we continue down this road, Model Railroader's moderators will certainly close this thread! That is not how I intended this topic to go.
I'm going to guess you're the one who doesn;t know how musiness works. If they wanted to, Athearn/Horizon could undercut every hobby shop AND internet seller - simply because they are the producer of the model. They can sell at a price lower than and downstream retailer simply because they wouldn't have the overhead of shipping and then the employees at the store, store or warehouse rent, web site fees, etc. They could sell for cost +10%, making a 10% profit on every item sold - that 10% wouldn't pay to keep the lights on in the LHS, not to mention that Horizon isn;t going to sell to a shop at cost, they are going to sell for cost +, so if the LHS expects to make any money to pay the employees, they have to sell for cost ++. This is why they are very careful to only offer MSRP on the web site. This is what also annoys some Walthers dealers, when Walthers offers an item for sale, they expect that sale price to be honored at their dealers. In some cases,. if the item is in inventory at the LHS, the LHS paid MORE than the sale price to order the item from Walthers in the first place. Sell below your cost and you will quickly be out of business.
NP2626 This thread has diverged from my original post, to people thinking I'm complaining about Athearn's prices, which I am not! I'm only complaining about their website. Do I think Athearn's prices are too high? I guess I think their prices are competitive with other company’s prices, which certainly do seem very high. However, because I want some of these products, at times, I will pay for the items at the best possible price I can get them for. Some of you jump to conclusions, which were not the original intent of the thread. I don’t know why these discussions are such “HOT” buttons with some of you. If you feel the subject has been beaten to death, why do you continue to post in them? If we continue down this road, Model Railroader's moderators will certainly close this thread! That is not how I intended this topic to go.
Well you DID say "bring another overpriced item to market" so it sure SOUNDS like you were complaining about the prices. I doubt this would have denigrated to a discussion of prices had you left just that one line out - still would have made your point about not liking the web site, which is all the first bunch of replies were about anyway.
Like I said - I think it is MUCH MUCH better that they have everything listed - expected new runs, current runs, and old stuff. I'd rather be able to find out something about the items I have then be stuck with a web site that shows only the current production runs. Atlas does this as well, so you cna find out when they made a particular road name and paint scheme. Life Like used to have this until Walthers took it away.
Just because something is listed as out of stock because it was produced 10 years ago doesn't mean you can;t buy it - and save a lot of money in the process. Very little of what I have on my layout is 'current' production. You can find the older stuff on ebay or at train shows for pennies on the dollar - outside of a few specifics very few of my locomotives cost me over $40, even though they may have had MSRPs at the time of release of well over $100. Everyone gets sucked into the "gotta have it now" mentality and it would be stupid of manufacturers not to capitalize on this and crank up prices. All those "OMG, if you don;t preorder it, you'll never get one" cries? Wait 6 months after the item is "sold out" - there will be dozens of them on eBay! I got a long sold out Atlas Trainmaster, original MSRP $299 with sound, for $129. I got a long sold out PCM T-1, original MSRP $399 with sound, for $140. $100+ Proto 2000 Geeps? Under $40, for road names that hadn't been produced in years and were out of production and out of stock everywhere.
Prices always go up due to inflation.
The reason they seem so much higher now is that middle class income has not kept up. And since hobby dollars come after food, clothing, shelter that's where the budget gets balanced. So yes, the rich are getting richer while the rest of us are losing ground. This means a lot less to spend on the hobby. Fortunately, you can still find some great prices at train shows - Athearn and MDC kits under $10, sometimes as low as $4.
Paul
The parts listing is a joke. Others have parts breakdowns per model then a list which pertains to that item . Athearn has a long convoluted list.
Jim
While I appreciate the fact that the prices in this hobby may seem high to some, the reality is they are what sustains the constant flow of new items that is the hobby's lifeblood. There has never been so much available to choose from. Take a peak at MR from 30, 40, or 50 years ago. Surprisingly little changed over that time. Sure, in the 70s prices went up, like they did in the rest of the economy. It took another 20 years or so to find a formula that works, but there's little doubt that what some see as high prices also is what made this cornucopeia of goodies available.
Some may believe that taking away much of the profit, keeping the same model on the shelves for years at a time, and having most shops charge full MSRP will lead to a better hobby. Well, maybe, so long as your vision of the hobby is stuck in 1975.
Thos who know me personally know I'm no knee-jerk defender of capitalism. But I think it's working pretty well for us here.
It's important to remember that our beloved trains are far from being a necessity of life. They are, in fact, a luxury good purchased with discretionary income. The rules of this market are decidedly different than those governing commodities or the market for things like the latest phone or car.
Most importantly, for those who believe the rules of high finance and sharp, Walmart-style pricing should apply, our hobby is a very tiny, even insignificant cul du sac in modern life. Those producing for it do so in search of profit. Cutting MSRP $100 across the board sounds great as a consumer, at first anyway. But if that was the case, then a lot of the manufacturing and importing infrastucture would likely whither away in short order. The market isn't big enough to sustain itself on the razor-thin margins many industries do. There's no bali-out in the works as if the hobby were like the auto biz a few years back.
Finally, for all the complaining about price, those runs continue to sell out regularly. A whole lot of consumers seem just fine with the pricing. While the theory of complaining about pricing may be based on the belief that the squeaky wheel may get the grease, in reality the squeaky wheel may need to get a second job or revise their hobby expectations to better fit current economic realities.
NP2626My opinion; Don't waste your time by going there, very little mentioned in their website is available! I guess I'm supposed to wait with bated breath while they bring another overpriced item to market! This sure wasn't Irv's idea of how you do business and it ain't mine either!
If you are speaking of the Athearn main website, I use it all the time to check products against which I may be buying on HOSwap, HOExchange, Ebay etc. I can simply enter in the part number and click on the check box for "view retired models" and you can see what they were/are.
Yes, most of what is listed is out of stock because they show everything going back for years, and of course the goal of most companies is to sell everything and not have it sitting around collecting dust. Understanding helps us not have unrealistic feelings about what is on a website - and Athearn does display generally what they have still in stock, which are usually items procuced recently, in the last year, or so.
Personally I'm a HUGE fan of Athearn as they make alot of stuff I like and is generally accurate, especially for western rail fans. I think their website is good and very useful as a resource. It helps if you learn how to search it effectively. Like anything worth having, there can be a little bit of a learning curve but it's not that hard.
Cheers, Jim Fitch
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
rrinker NP2626 This thread has diverged from my original post, to people thinking I'm complaining about Athearn's prices, which I am not! I'm only complaining about their website. Do I think Athearn's prices are too high? I guess I think their prices are competitive with other company’s prices, which certainly do seem very high. However, because I want some of these products, at times, I will pay for the items at the best possible price I can get them for. Some of you jump to conclusions, which were not the original intent of the thread. I don’t know why these discussions are such “HOT” buttons with some of you. If you feel the subject has been beaten to death, why do you continue to post in them? If we continue down this road, Model Railroader's moderators will certainly close this thread! That is not how I intended this topic to go. Well you DID say "bring another overpriced item to market" so it sure SOUNDS like you were complaining about the prices. I doubt this would have denigrated to a discussion of prices had you left just that one line out - still would have made your point about not liking the web site, which is all the first bunch of replies were about anyway. Like I said - I think it is MUCH MUCH better that they have everything listed - expected new runs, current runs, and old stuff. I'd rather be able to find out something about the items I have then be stuck with a web site that shows only the current production runs. Atlas does this as well, so you cna find out when they made a particular road name and paint scheme. Life Like used to have this until Walthers took it away. Just because something is listed as out of stock because it was produced 10 years ago doesn't mean you can;t buy it - and save a lot of money in the process. Very little of what I have on my layout is 'current' production. You can find the older stuff on ebay or at train shows for pennies on the dollar - outside of a few specifics very few of my locomotives cost me over $40, even though they may have had MSRPs at the time of release of well over $100. Everyone gets sucked into the "gotta have it now" mentality and it would be stupid of manufacturers not to capitalize on this and crank up prices. All those "OMG, if you don;t preorder it, you'll never get one" cries? Wait 6 months after the item is "sold out" - there will be dozens of them on eBay! I got a long sold out Atlas Trainmaster, original MSRP $299 with sound, for $129. I got a long sold out PCM T-1, original MSRP $399 with sound, for $140. $100+ Proto 2000 Geeps? Under $40, for road names that hadn't been produced in years and were out of production and out of stock everywhere. --Randy
O.K. you talked me into taking that tack with this thread! So, I do think Athearn's current stuff is overpriced. I'm the only person on this forum who thinks this way, so I absolutly must be wrong!
So, now I think their website is pretty worthless and they charge to much, are you sure this is what I want to say, Randy?
OK, OK, model train stuff is expensive. We KNOW. Been there, done that, got the commemorative enamel pin. Now move along, nothing (new) to see here.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
PM Railfan,For the record, I got the $150 for a single loco from BLI in person. It's a hybrid model, so it's mostly brass and die cast (and therefore, few injection moldings). That's what the Chinese are charging them. I also got the $150 fixed costs number from BLI as well. I did not pull these out of thin air, these are actual numbers that I was told. Now if they aren't lying to me (and I have no reason to suspect BLI would), and a loco costs them $300 ea. from beginning to delivery, how much do you think they should charge the wholesalers like Walthers, et al.?
If you were a manufacturer, and you imported a product that cost you $150 to make and $150 to import, what does your minor in Bus. Mgmt. tell you to sell it at to a wholesale distributer?
BTW, BLI also told me that the cost of labor in China has tripled in the past 5 years.
And who said anything about buying new machines? You should know that when I said "tooling", that means the actual molds used in the making of models, not towards the machines themselves.
Unless your name is "Bob Grubba", then you don't know the loco isn't $150. And it wasn't just $150, either, as that's just the cost of production. It cost another $150 on top of that, too. So it's actually a $300 engine in pure costs for a $700 MSRP. That's zero profit, and every product should make a profit, don't you think?
I guess I have to agree with Steven Otte. Comparing a $25.00 U.S. made Athearn locomotive of15 to 25 years ago (still available at swap meets and on Ebay for $25.00 to $35.00, to what they are producing off-shore now for 10X that amount, probably doesn't make much sense. As to whether discussing model railroad equipment prices on a web forum devoted to model railroading, is relevant, I will let that be up to the reader and/or the moderator.