Steven Otte OK, OK, model train stuff is expensive. We KNOW. Been there, done that, got the commemorative enamel pin. Now move along, nothing (new) to see here.
OK, OK, model train stuff is expensive. We KNOW. Been there, done that, got the commemorative enamel pin. Now move along, nothing (new) to see here.
Steve.... how much did that pin cost?
I can understand Model Railroaders position on these types of topics. It is their valued customers who are being talked about by their other valued customers, you and I. The magazine is D_mned if they do and D_mned if they don't.
This position the magazine is put in, makes discussions such as this one, almost untenable for the magazine. For that I am sorry! However, I don’t think it means these discussions should not be had. It’s just here, maybe cannot be the place! So, where does this leave us? From the standpoint of the magazine, I am asking Steven Otte to shut this discussion down by locking this thread. Why discussing model railroading equipment’s prices should be such a touchy subject, is beyond me. However, it is!
I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for! Per Mike Lehman, Athearn is going through some changes; so, possibly I should have shown a bit more patience with the company. Maybe their Tech. people quite, where fired; or, other and nobody knows how to do anything with the website. Excepting the Roundhouse brand of models, Horizon’s Model Railroading offerings really do not fit my needs.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
PM Railfan Steven Otte OK, OK, model train stuff is expensive. We KNOW. Been there, done that, got the commemorative enamel pin. Now move along, nothing (new) to see here. Steve.... how much did that pin cost?
Far too much.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
NP2626, discussing the costs of model railroading isn't a "touchy subject." Remember, I started the thread "Model railroading on the cheap." If it were a touchy subject, I would have locked this thread or deleted it outright.
Rather, it's a topic that's been endlessly lamented by the same people over and over, one that absolutely nobody has anything new to say about, and one that almost always ends in bad feelings. Which is why I try to discourage the topic when it comes up. But if people want to surprise me and show that they can discuss the hobby's costs without getting into "Buy Amercian or your unpatroitic!!!1!" or "Unoins ruined manufactoring in this country!!!1!", then, by all means, do so. I'll be sitting here with my popcorn.
I think this is a good place to post this reply to an earlier post that was buried far down after most had walked away from it. I seem to be in the minority here when I say the prices of trains today are completely in line with Economic trends of the last 60 years. My line of work is Economics as I majored in it and have taught it for thirty years. On the other hand don't ask me where my keys are currently.
"Great discussion and thus far it's actually quite civil. Dave Nelson's comment about gasoline gave me a thought. I think value is also relative to a daily comparison of the things you own that are produced by multinational corporations that have spent the last 50 years perfecting economies of scale. Your cell phone, most appliances, that amazing 60 inch plasma tv were all purchased at way less prices than their not so practical or fun equivalents from just thirty years ago considering inflation. Heck even my new 2015 Subaru Wrx is light years better technology than my 1979 Hurst Olds Cutlass from 35 years ago. Also cheaper considering inflation, faster and safer. Salaries have also risen significantly over the same time frame. While I may make considerably more as a high school teacher than my mother did in the same field, we never think our income is enough.
However since our trains are not made by major multinational corporations the same advantages of economies of scale can not be taken advantage of. So yes as the detail, running abilities, paint, choice, dcc, and sound have been revolutionary the prices are sometimes higher than the value we see with our cars and consumer electronics"
Steve B
Steven OtteBut if people want to surprise me and show that they can discuss the hobby's costs without getting into "Buy Amercian or your unpatroitic!!!1!" or "Unoins ruined manufactoring in this country!!!1!", then, by all means, do so. I'll be sitting here with my popcorn.
Thanks to Steve for keeping it real. It doesn't help to be acrimonious. The world is a complex place and learning more about it and how that applies to the hobby we love is useful. That requires learning more about what goes into making the wealth of models we enjoy.
I tend to think of even things that are ordinarily considered by me expensive as at least accessible in this hobby. Yeah, you might wish that passenger car or loco was cheaper, but it will almost always fit the budget with a little planning and maybe delaying something else, if it's really needed. Our hobby doesn't consist of a few expensive things, like say collecting Porsches, but a lot of items at variable costs. Those costs can range all the way down to zero, if one does have signifucant budget limitations. I've know lots of folks who can't afford much, but can afford model railroading, because lots of enjoyment can be had with realtively small investment.
Now, if you want the latest and greatest, it will cost you. MR is full of wonderfully attractive ads for new stuff every month and maybe that makes people think all of us here are buying all that stuff and they should be, too? But most of us don't buy a new car every year any more -- or ever did. And most of us get around just fine. Between used equipment, close-out specials, old kits, scratchbuilding, and just plan ol' budgeting, model railroading can cost as little as you want it to. There is a place for everyone of every means at this table, which is one reason why it's such a great hobby. There are very few hobbies like that, when you think about it -- polo, anyone?, and that's a fact we should appreciate more.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
blabrideI seem to be in the minority here when I say the prices of trains today are completely in line with Economic trends of the last 60 years.
Steve,
Very thoughtful post and certainly in agreement with my own views. We have things today that are commonly available that were simply unobtanium at any price a few decades ago. In fact, it's fun to go back and read several old MR articles that did some crystal ball gazing into what future products we would have available someday. Those old school forecasts did pretty well.
I still need live onboard video links to my Blackstones, though, if I ever get ambitious.
Unobtainium!
It is a rational explanation that costs are tied to modern economic conditions vs. the olden days, and things like inflation and labor has driven the current price structures. I accept that and realize like anything, I can't afford everything I want, but I manage to find ways to afford some of what I want and just have to be patient and spend as I make money, or sell things off I don't need to pay for new things that cost more.
Maybe the only fly in the ointment, and this is in the news weekly, is that since the 2007 recession recovery has taken hold in the last couple years, salaries still lag far behind. So product prices have continued to rise fairly sharply, but our income has stagnated so it is otherwise harder to cope with those price increases.
But I am thankful for what I have and that I manage to afford a few nice new products and fill the gaps with some older cheaper items too.
Cheers, Jim
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I can agree with Jim, above. I remember walking into Hub Hobby in Richfield, MN and looking at the 30-50 Athearn locomotive kits in a display case, taking 20-30 minutes, taking my time considering which $25.00 locomotive I wanted to buy. This doesn't seem like it was that long ago, to me! However, I'm sure it's probably 15 years ago. $25.00 was really pretty painless back then!
I too am thankful I can build up the bank roll and buy an item I really want to have. It is fewer and farther between; but, I am still able. As far as locomotives are concerned, I am finding the maintenence of the 20 I have is becoming a bit of a chore! I'm thinking maybe I should narrow the locomotive stud down a few to ease this problem. We'll see!
Jim,
You are absolutely right about salaries. This is the main reason people voted how they did in November, according to several exit polls. While unemployment is lower than it's been since 2006, and the economy is growing at a healthy clip, heck even consumer confidence is higher than it's been in some time people feel poorer. Why, it's not inflation at only 1.6%, it's the fact that over the last 15 years salaries have stagnated at a staggering rate. In 2008 average salaries were 56,436. Today it's down to 51,939. That's lower than it's been since 1991. A year when you could by beautiful Overland brass SD40-2s for 175.00. Not only that, the top 5% has seen their accumulation of wealth rise from 54% to over 64% today.
So as my Grandpa used to say the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer.
Now, now, keep politics out of the discussion, please.
blabride So as my Grandpa used to say the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. Steve B
A good question would be: Is the upper 1% growing in numbers; or, are they still only 1%? I certainly know the poorer class is growing!
Last warning. No politics, or this thread gets yanked.
Ever watch Shark Tank? Kevin O'Leary is constantly pointing out that unless you have something proprietary, if there is any REAL money to be made, the big companies would simply step in, drive the little guys out and take over the market.
Since you can't patent a model of an N&W J-class 4-8-4, anybody can make one. If companies like BLI were getting rich selling them, the big boys would have squashed them long ago.
For the record, I don't have a major or minor in business. I just waste an hour in front of the TV on the occasional Friday night.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
NP2626I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for!
Because it is no longer available on a manufacturers website doesn't mean it is no longer available.
The Walthers annual is referred as a "reference book" and not a catalog, ever wonder why?
Reference is the key word here...the other is Google.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam NP2626 I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for! Because it is no longer available on a manufacturers website doesn't mean it is no longer available. The Walthers annual is referred as a "reference book" and not a catalog, ever wonder why? Reference is the key word here...the other is Google.
NP2626 I guess my dislike of Athearn's website is coming from a sales perspective. Having choices leading to dead ends, seems to be defeating the purpose of what I think a website should be for!
The Walthers annual is referred as a "reference book" and not a catalog, ever
wonder why?
So, you’re telling me now there is difference between catalogs and reference books. Wow, after 64 years you would think I’d have known that!
Also, if it is only a "reference book" meaning not necessarily items carried by Walthers (like a catalog) why doesn't it show Athearn and Roundhouse items, anymore?
NP i hope this doesnt add to your woes, but some of us call the Walthers catalog a 'bible'. And im not religeous. No offense.
Wrong!!!!!!!!! It is neither! It is really customer service and the way they treat you, who needs that. I am surprised the LHS lasted as long as it did, most (not all) were, are run so poorly. I had a buddy with me once and I was thinking about going into G scale for outside, buddy said he had a set and the owner started yelling at him for interupting a sale even though he knew I was with him.
PM Railfan NP i hope this doesnt add to your woes, but some of us call the Walthers catalog a 'bible'. And im not religeous. No offense.
I don't know if I'd call it a bible; however, I like to buy one every few years and page through to see some of what's available in this reference catalog!
All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them.
On the bottom of the cover, It states: Your Number One resource For Model Railroad Product Information. Has a nice Free wall calendar inside this year. My LHS gives me one every year. But I've been using His services for 45yrs.
Take Care!
Frank
zstripeAll the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them.
I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001.
My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00.
Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them. I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001. My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00. Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years.
zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them.
This is where this is headed? A discussion on whether the Walthers book is a Catalog; or, Reference Book?
Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread.
Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition.
Rich
Alton Junction
NP2626 BRAKIE zstripe All the one's I have including, 2015, top left corner of cover, state's 2015 HO Reference Book. No mention, of catalog on any of them. I agree..However,seeing its outdated before its printed I used Walthers web site and have since I joined the computer age back in 2001. My last Walthers reference book was a freebie..The shop has several 2006 left over when the 2007 was release and he was giving the '06 issue to customers that spent over $75.00. Fast forward to 2014 and he no longer carries them and hasn't for the last four years. This is where this is headed? A discussion on whether the Walthers book is a Catalog; or, Reference Book?
It kinda ties in with web pages like Athearns,Walthers,Atlas and other manufacturer's sites.These web sites is used for reference in today's preorder world that has little in stock supply..
Athearn's web page is easy to use as reference but,lacks a detailed parts lists like it should have.
richhotrain Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread. Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition. Rich
It doesn't bother me one bit. The reason I stopped buying the occasional copy of Walthers catelog is the rise of the internet. My last copy was purchased in 1999 and since then I can find out most of what I need on line.
I don't have any special loyalty to either company. I like to buy from whoever makes from what I need, variety is a good thing and to have a fleet that most represents a particular RR and era, that is best done if we avail ourselves of many different brands. It's a good thing.
Getting back to the OT, Athearns website is fine - they show pretty much everything they have made since the last 12 years approximately, which is a good thing. Like I said before, a lot of what is sold out at Athearn is still out there in some shops and also on the secondary market. I frequently check the website when I am considering something being sold by a vendor or a private seller on the auction site or HOSwap or HOExchange. With the part number I can usually positively identify a product. That can also be done, BTW, on Walthers website too.
So between Walthers and Athearn you can cover most major products. Everyone wins IMO.
riogrande5761 richhotrain Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread. Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition. Rich
My comment relates to the fact that when Athearn, a large manufacturer of model railroading equipment was pulled from the Walthers Reference Book, the Walthers book lost its mystique as the so-called "bible" of model railroad supply. It was no longer a complete reference book.
richhotrain riogrande5761 richhotrain Interesting to mention Walthers on an Athearn thread. Once Athearn ended its association with Walthers, the Walthers reference book kinda lost its glamor as the end-all, be-all reference book. That's when I stopped buying the annual edition. Rich It's not about loyalty to one company or another. My comment relates to the fact that when Athearn, a large manufacturer of model railroading equipment was pulled from the Walthers Reference Book, the Walthers book lost its mystique as the so-called "bible" of model railroad supply. It was no longer a complete reference book. Rich
It's not about loyalty to one company or another.
I think I know the answer to this question; however, what do you guys have to say:
Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers?
riogrande5761Like I said before, a lot of what is sold out at Athearn is still out there in some shops and also on the secondary market.
Absolutely! My newest "treasures" is 2 gray Guilford FMC 5347 50' boxcars that was release in 2008 that I picked up used for $10.00 each-another long hunt ends with success.
NP2626Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers?
None of the above..Horizon ended that deal because Walthers is a distributor competitor.No use sharing a slice of the distribution pie when you're already a distributor that happens to own Athearn..
BRAKIE NP2626 Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers? None of the above..Horizon ended that deal because Walthers is a distributor competitor.No use sharing a slice of the distribution pie when you're already a distributor that happens to own Athearn..
NP2626 Who decided to stop Athearn/Roundhouse being listed in the Walthers Book? Athearn/Roundhouse; or, Walthers?
Horizon Hobbies IS Athearn!