Hey all, I decided the best place to come and ask questions is here. seeing it is the place to ask questions, so here goes..
I iver the years have accumulated a ton of stuff for HO modeling. and stuff passed down from gerat grandfather, to grandfather, to dad, then to me. been model railroading since I was a yonker of 12. and Im 50+ now, and rebuilding seeing i moved into another home I purchased. so sorting out stuff, I came across some weird things. I have some parts I can not for the life of me identify. maybe you all can help here
1) I have about 30 bags of something called "Fishplates" they are in the manilla bags, 100 count, to me they look like rail jointers, but over the years, I never heard of something called fish plates before. any one know of them??
2) I also have aprox 40 packs (unknown count) that look like O gauge rail jointers. if they are (i dont have a picture of them yet, but when i get batteries I will post them.) looks like about 12 to a pack. in HO the rail joiners have folded copper to the bottom of the rails. these things do not have such a fold on either side. though there are 2 tabs on each end to I guess make them so?? anyone??
3) I have about a dozen or so ""Anderson Magnetic Uncoupler"" it also says This package contains..
Assembled Uncoupler20 Conversion PinsTies for CamouflagInstruction SheetPrice 85 cents. Made by Arvid L. Anderson, Box 392 Frederic, Wis
Does anyone know of this Magnetic Uncoupler?? should, or could I used them on my layout? are they worth using (I am using DCC) anyone please??
4) I also have a wooden Kit, that is a Track Cleaning Car Assembly, made by N&T Models... has anyone heard of them? though the kit seems to be complete, again, its a whole kit, One would need wood glue to put it all together. If I did, would this work as a track cleaning car???? has anyone ever owned one? ir should I just build it and into a glass case?????? lol
5) I have about 200 packs of (6 per pack) ""Scale Signals & Accessories) from NJ int. to me they look like the recieving end of a infared reciever part. it has a (I am assuming) part number of 8306. nothing else on the packageing, no instructions, nothing. any ideas? and or instructions on how to use them????
6) I have several bags, of 250 pieces per bag. the only thing I can say about this is that it has a black top, with 3 copper (LED) style posts (for lack of a better word) there are numbers on the bags (all the same)
7588 635258 and next to that number sideways it has this number or code it is either FEB6, or IEB6. no idea in the world what these things are. I suck at google for searching... anyone??
7) and the last one. it also is a NJ inc, the little white box on the tab on right, says ""Extra Contacts"" had to describe this, except to say it look slike something you would find inside of a relay. (if thats a help)
Thanks in advance, Again, I am trying to rebuild my HO Layout, and in my many many many parts cases, besides 4 box's of Rivarossi Steam parts. I came across these things I am lost at. again I SO Suck with google searching. I honestly could not find Black Beauty in a field of White Mice if my life depended on it. so any help here would Help me So much. and maybe the layout as well.
Thanks in advance, Ray
"Sometimes the Most real things in life, are the things we can not see."
In this country, most 1:1 railroaders won't know what a fishplate is. In England, it's the term for the steel plates that attach one rail to the next (i.e., "rail joiners"). For some goofy reason, U.S. modelers picked up the term and have used it for several years even though it's an unknown term on the prototype. In this country, those plates are called angle bars. Not sure about Canadian parlance. I don't recall ever hearing that Mantua ever sold rail joiners under their own name. You learn something new every day. Live long enough & you'll know everything!
Tom
Fish plates on 1:1 railroads are metal plates with holes in them that are place on the wood tie and then the rail on top of that. The holes are for the spikes. I have a few of these that I have used as an anvil for better words. These are molded into the plastic tie strips on HO track, both flex and sectional.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
The above post says "fish plate" is a synonym for "tie plate". I think that may be erroneous.
Fish'plate, n. [prob. from Fr. fiche, means of fixing, confused with fish] either of a pair of iron or steel plates bolting two rails together lengthwise, as on a railroad.
(Webster's New twentieth Century Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged, Second Edition, published 1961 when jointed rail was the norm.)
If itm looks like a rail joiner, then it is a rail joiner even though they call it a fish plate. Here is a link to a picture of a real fish plate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishplate.
Concerning the NJ International item 8306, you can call/e-mail NJ and ask them if they recognize what you have by that part number. Here is link to their contact information: http://www.njinternational.com/order.htm .
Same thing with your item 7, extra contacts. I will hazard a guess that those extra contacts are for the solenoid switch machines that NJ used to sell.
It looks like you got an answer to the track cleaner car at the other forum where you posted the same questions.
And here is a link to a copy of the patent given to Arvid Anderson in 1958 for a "Electro-magnetic means for effecting de-coupling of a pair of adjacent coupled toy train cars", http://www.google.com/patents/US2933201. Unfortunately the sketch in the patent application did not reproduce very well. Actually, when I Googled this subject I came up with another magnetic uncoupler circa 1960, http://www.google.com/patents/US3069023. When you look through that, you'll see citations for other related items, including Accurail's version of a coupler.
ACY The above post says "fish plate" is a synonym for "tie plate". I think that may be erroneous. Tom
You are correct...they are not the same. Tie plates are shown here: http://www.ez2rail.com/track-components/tie-plates
Mantua fishplates are obviously from the days when people hand laid their rail -- maybe even before Atlas came up with flex track with the fiber crossties and rail stapled to it; but I had never heard that Mantua made fishplates.
The Anderson Magnetic Uncouplers are most likely a pre-Kadee product and made to work only with their version of coupler, whatever that may have been. Most likely some type of hook and loop coupler.
I first entered model railroading in the 1950's and have never heard of either product.
NJ International is still in business and still making signals and related products, so you need to learn how to use your computer to search for things.
http://www.njinternational.com
And I didn't need Google or anything else to find the above link -- I just typed in the address.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Arvid Anderson was one of many small manufacturers -- basement operators they used to be called -- from the 1950s - 60s, with a small but respected product line, mostly HO but there may have been some O as well. I recall some structure kits of wood as well as a turnout crank -- for mounting the switch machine or motor under the layout and connected to the tiebar with this crank. It was one of the early attempts to get the hulking switch machines off the surface of the layout where they detracted from scale appearance. I do not recall his coupler but given the timing I imagine that Kadee pretty much swept the field about that same time (and some of us recall pre magnetic Kadees).
I don't recall when Arvid Anderson stopped advertising and disappeared from the Walthers catalog.
Dave Nelson
dknelsonI don't recall when Arvid Anderson stopped advertising and disappeared from the Walthers catalog.
Dave (and the OP),
The Anderson turnout links are listed in my oldest Walthers catalog, 1971, under Earl R. Eshleman. It was basically a shaft with adjustable lever arms on either end. The top one hooked through the bridle connecting the points. The bottom one was driven by whatever -- choke cable, switch machine. When it was thrown, the top lever moved with it.
I believe that Eshleman must have purchased the company from Anderson or his estate. I remember the ads in old MR and RMC mags, which might be the place to research some of the other items, too. There was nothing under either name in the 1972 Walthers catalog, so presume that was pretty much near the end for them.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I did a search or the MR 75 Year collection. Mr. Anderson started his model railroad business in the late 1950's. His first add was in the Oct 1957 issue Classifieds. His last ad was in the Classified Marketplace of the March 1980 issue.
A note by Gordon Odegard in the Feb 1982 Bull Session column, says that he was injured in a construction accident. and been disabled. He died before the note was published. His obituary appears in the May 1982 Off the Train Wire column. He died Dec 29 1981.
There is a Review of his "X2 Magnetic Uncoupler" in the Nov 1958 issue. The X2F coupler, often erroneously called the "NMRA coupler" required a minor modification to work with the uncoupler. It was the most commonly supplied coupler on the HO cars of that period.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Ok, so your saying that most of these things were about late 50's through the 70's. I have most all the Model Railroader, & Railroad Modeler magazines from that period. if not then I may know a few people who may have them. and hopefully I can find some sort of info on some of these thing.
As for NJ, I will email them for that info. If they are infared detectors, then boy and I going to have a great itme with my new signaling project. ;) I do not like Signals / Switches to be a aprt of the DCC system. call me a old fart and just "out of touch" but the actual feel of controling switch's with a actuator, or switch for the switch, or even a throw bar. feels good to me. and gives me more of a actual feeling of a real road of the olden days. when there were switch towers, interlocking towers with real people in them, old "Grasp, yank, and pull" throw switches. not this new 1 dispatcher for several states junk, or a computer driven routing system. WHat can I say. Im a older Style, Model Railroader. it was more fun back then. Though I do have Slo-Mo Machines I picked up somewhere at an estate sale some 20 years past. (love those estate sales) lol.
Signals, I pretty much made, or am making them from scratch. mostly brass parts that I got from the SuperStore eBay, and a lot of NJ plastic heads. and plasticville signal bridges, turned into working signal bridges. So far, from my old model railroad, before I had to pack it up (and did not learn about modular sections. I have about 150 brass signals of all types, not so much plastic.
OK, I get the fish plates part. but why do they call them Fish Plates??? I dont even see anything that looks like a fish anything on them. though I am sure there is a real reason provided by Our fellow UK'ers.
I believe the resemblence to fish was found in the 19th century versions of the "fishplate." Modern ones have a big angled foot that rests against the base of the rail, so is more resistant to sieways forces, etc. IIRC the early ones were more like a flat bar that attached pretty much bearing on just the web of the rail.
Of course, the model railroad rail connector doesn't resemble either very much.
Interesting about Anderson's demise 10 years after the info I found.
Now I'm starting to wonder if the Anderson involved with Eshleman is the same as Arvid Anderson?
The illustration in the catalog shows a round vertical tube, with the top arm being fixed in an elbow to hook and move the bridle back and forth. Down below is a screw-attached arm. I presume it can be adjusted so it can point in any direction toward the switch machine mount, plus the arm positioning could then be adjusted to the throw of the machine.
Maybe Anderson sold the turnout throw design to Eshleman, then went on by investing the proceeds to try to invent the Uber-coupler, but got outclassed by Kadee???
ACY The above post says "fish plate" is a synonym for "tie plate". I think that may be erroneous. Fish'plate, n. [prob. from Fr. fiche, means of fixing, confused with fish] either of a pair of iron or steel plates bolting two rails together lengthwise, as on a railroad. (Webster's New twentieth Century Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged, Second Edition, published 1961 when jointed rail was the norm.) Tom
Tom (and all others reading this thread); I stand corrected on this, can't believe for the past 60+ years I called the tie plate a fish plate?? Just goes to show you learn something new every day; and I will remember this one.
Earl R. Eshleman's first ad is in the May 1965 Classifieds. selling "starch decals" and "PRR calender pictures". In the April 69 Off the Train Wire there is a note the Eshleman now owns Andersons turnout link, sound system and O scale trackwork. Anderson "plans to concentrate on Oscale kits and custombuilding."
Mr Eshleman advertises that his business is for sale in the March 1999, Jan 2003 and Feb 2003 Classifieds.
Welcome to the wonderful world of model archaeology.
I recall using 'fishplates' to assemble rail end-to-rail end. Later the name morphed into the more accurate, 'rail joiner.'
The things that look like 1:48 scale rail joiners were probably intended either to simulate rail joiners (all jointed track in those days) or to be soldered to the rails at joints - a one-sided rail joiner, if you will.
Don't know about the Anderson uncouplers. Arv Anderson invented the Anderson Link for through-the-roadbed point throwing purposes. I still use a crude form - brass tube and bent paperclip.
Don't know about your track cleaning car. How does it clean track. If it's a John Allen-type slider car you could run it as part of your MOW equipment.
Items 5 through 7 sound like parts intended for a signal detection system. Item 6 might be a long-obsolete transistor, possibly intended for use in Linn Westcott's Twin-T detection circuit. I haven't looked up the original article, so I can't say with certainty.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
mlehman Interesting about Anderson's demise 10 years after the info I found. Now I'm starting to wonder if the Anderson involved with Eshleman is the same as Arvid Anderson? The illustration in the catalog shows a round vertical tube, with the top arm being fixed in an elbow to hook and move the bridle back and forth. Down below is a screw-attached arm. I presume it can be adjusted so it can point in any direction toward the switch machine mount, plus the arm positioning could then be adjusted to the throw of the machine. Maybe Anderson sold the turnout throw design to Eshleman, then went on by investing the proceeds to try to invent the Uber-coupler, but got outclassed by Kadee???
Hawk007 OK, I get the fish plates part. but why do they call them Fish Plates??? I dont even see anything that looks like a fish anything on them. though I am sure there is a real reason provided by Our fellow UK'ers.
See Tom's (ACY) original post. The french word "fiche" with it's older meaning of "attach", is pronounced "feesh". Anglicize the pronunciation a bit and you have "fish". It has nothing to do with the shape or markings.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
CTValleyRRSee Tom's (ACY) original post. The french word "fiche" with it's older meaning of "attach", is pronounced "feesh". Anglicize the pronunciation a bit and you have "fish". It has nothing to do with the shape or markings.
That's an interesting theory. I'd put more stock in it if the French had been somewhat more prominent in railway engineering. Otherwise, it's kind of hard to see a gang of Brit railway workers discussing the latest in French cuisine and what the best bar in Cannes might be, as well as the funny name some engineer just called that fishplate over there...
Words have interesting histories and it's often not entirely possible to sort out all the influences out. Word definitions are like a lot of things dealing with language. There's not a correct way. It's all about how people actually use language. I suspect there's some influence in this by people dealing strictly with words, reading something into the definition that really requires a more complex approach. For instance, wikipedia cites the invention of the fish plate in the mid-1840s in England, while the cites for the "French theory" tend to cite the mid-1850s. Maybe the Brits had them around for a decade, then decided to ask the first Frenchman they encountered to name it?
I have my doubts about the assertion that fishplate is a strictly "English" term, too. I knew what a fishplate was before I ever got into model railroading. There were railroaders in the family, but mostly before my time. Or who knows where I learned it, except I'm pretty sure I never met any Frnech people and came away calling it that... I actually suspect that it's as much a regional issue as it is a national issue in terms of usage.
This is all pretty tongue in cheek, except the part about words being defined by those who use them, rather by those who observe such uses. There is always a tendency to reduce things to one "correct" way, as that the thing that humans, and particularly Americans, do, because it makes the world simple. But the world is far from simple and the mutiple uses and meanings of words over time are a prominent example.
If you want to understand the fish image associated with these things, think about how fish swim, upright and in parallel. So is how you make a rail joint, with two of them "swimming" in parallel. Depending on the fish you're talking about, some are longer in the body and have either eyes, gills, or markings that resemble the bolt holes.
Then there was the fact that the RR brought fresh fish to the English away from the coast for the first time at an affordable cost. In this sense, people could've been thinking "fish" when looking at RR track.
I suspect the fishplate word story is rather more complex than simple.
After the Norman conquest, French was the language spoken in England by the upper classes for quite a long time. Eventually English became dominant again because it was the language of the common people, so the government began working in English to better communicate with the average Englishman.
That doesn't mean that French language influences are not there. The Queen is fluent in French too.
All I know for sure is what the dictionary said. In my personal experience, I've heard "fishplate" from modelers, but not from U.S. railroaders. They generally call the things angle bars or joint bars. There may be other names, and it could be a regional thing. I suspect the typical British track worker, or "plate layer" didn't speak French in 1840 - 1850, but the inventor of the thing might have spoken French. I can also imagine a French railway ordering "fiche" plates from a British foundry, and influencing British usage.
But I wasn't there, so I dunno.
ACYI wasn't there, so I dunno.
Yeah, that's kinda the sticking point. I wasn't, either.
I'm really not disputing the French theory so much as noting it may well have been of some significance, but may not be the only piece of the puzzle. Betamax is right, too, lots of borrowing from French into English. Thing is, much of that borrowing went on before the 19th century, so I'm not sure it applies here...but it could.
This source says it comes from the French word "ficher", meaning "to fasten", http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fishplates
See Wikipedia for another opinion re: fish plate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishplate. To summarize what they say, "The name is derived from fish, a wooden bar with a curved profile used to strengthen a ship's mast.[1]".
Yeah, good examples of how language and word usage can be very complex. The term fishplate also applies to a piece of metal used in bricklaying to help bond courses of brick together. It's somewhat similar to how the term applies to rail, as it, too, is a term based on the shape, rather than word origin.
It's also a good time to point out that word usage and dictionary definitions can be similar, but also vary. Usage comes first, while words make it into the dictionary after they've been in use in that manner for some time, during which they may have evolved considerably. Likewise, someone compiling a dictionary in the 21st century has to be careful about not reading their own point of view into how they see something that happened in the 19th.
That's why I'm leery about the French theory. It sounds exactly like what someone being somewhat careless about their definitions might come up with, as it seems wholly based on the word's root, rather than historically located in the context it was used in. I'm aware of no great influence of the French on British railway practices. If anything, the opposite was the case, given how influential British rail technology was. It seems more likely to me that the French should be calling them "fishplates" in French, but since I don't have much French, someone else will have to weigh in on what the French call them -- which might be interesting to find out.
A French civil engineer was heavily involved in construction of the British rail system -- Maidenhead Bridge is just one of his designs that is still in daily use today.
Finally got batteries for the camera. phew here are some of the images of what I posted about before.
Guessing I can not add pictures here?? weird
Hawk007Guessing I can not add pictures here??
Not directly. You have to upload them to a third party website, such as photobucket, first.
ok, will have to do that then. give me some time lol
ok, This is Usless, I can not post images. so plan #2 head to this link. its just a picture page. with all of the things I talked about. Sorry I just can not get uploads of pictures to work. it is on my personal site. it is SAFE I promise...
www.raybuettner.com/bucket.html