Jaime,
Photography is a lot like model railroading. There are those who say it's art and those who'll say it's just a picture. But I think a larger percentage of photographers see themselves as artists now and photographic art is unquestionably regarded as art by artists. Model railroading, not so much.
So yes, photography of modelling -- and certainly railfan photography -- is art -- if you want it to be.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike,
Interesting aspects! I have discussed the issue of model railroading being an art with my wife (after nearly 30 years of marriage we still talk to each other ), who comes from an artist family of painters, sculptors and singers and who is a gifted painter herself. Her opinion is somewhat diplomatic - while model railroading may not be an art in itself, it does take a lot what makes up an artist - dedication, skill and a good feeling for scenes, colors etc.
Following her view, any well-done layout comes very close to being a work of art. There are a number of layouts presented her, that qualify for that. Being just a model railroader is certainly not enough.
Sir MadogFollowing her view, any well-done layout comes very close to being a work of art. There are a number of layouts presented her, that qualify for that. Being just a model railroader is certainly not enough.
Ulrich,
I'll agree, there's good art and bad, good model railroads and bad. Probably helps to think of it like a giant Venn diagram. There are different categories and differing relationships between the categories.
I'll also say there's another way in which art and model railroading demonstrate a decidedly common trait in going beyond the simple fact there's bad art and bad model railroading. Both artists and model railroaders have a certain tendency to claim something isn't even in the respective category if they don't like it. "That's not model railroading!" is heard just as "That's not art!" is by some offended by either.
"He said, it´s model railroading" - "Impossible - he got all the NBW castings wrong!"
I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors.
Does that make model railroading art now?
Jaime
NEMMRRC I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors. Does that make model railroading art now? Jaime
Don't think so..Makes them a actor..You see actors on stage not art..
With that thought..Naw..None of my "actors" is worthy of a Academy Award.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I believe you're talking about Frank Ellison.
And it's an excellent example that the idea that some of us, as well as others, consider model railroading as art isn't really new at all. In fact, it's part of the genesis of the hobby, whether people want to acknowledge that or not. Ellison used the theater metaphor, because it was one that everyone understood. Heck, lots of people still alive then remembered when the first movies came out...silent ones.
In modern terms, I think the theater metaphor still works. But there are others that may work just as well. Performance art would certainly apply to the typical ops session. Photography was already mentioned. Certainly writing about model railroading involves elements of art, as does the often complex videography connected to our hobby. Heck, they're even making a movie about the hobby: http://modelcitizensmovie.com/
I think one would be hard-pressed to make the argument that weathering isn't art. Heck, it usually even involves paint -- an artist would feel right at home, although it might take several "canvasses" for even an experienced artist to get that idea.
Sir Madog "He said, it´s model railroading" - "Impossible - he got all the NBW castings wrong!"
There you go. Those fellows look like art critics, too...
Art Curren.
Enough said.
By the hat...I would say one looks to be a,'' not so pretty woman''.
Take Care!
Frank
Troels Kirk, builder of the Coast Line RR On30 layout, is an artist by trade. You should see his layout ...
mlehmanI think one would be hard-pressed to make the argument that weathering isn't art.
Seeing some "weathered" cars..Nope not even close modern art..
Some may resemble a palette after the artist is finish painting.
The guilty party was probably Frank Ellison, the early (1940s) operations guru. He was a stage manager by profession.
I've said that numerous times on this forum, to the extent of referring to my trains as, "Flange-wheeled thespians," and to my netherworld as the dressing rooms and wings that support the on-stage (visible, once the scenery is in) action.
That said, the reference is to theater, not visual art. Also, in its present, partially completed state, I would question the sanity of anyone who would refer to my layout as, "Art."
On the other hand, it does somewhat resemble that bunch of bent girders in Rancho Cordova. Maybe, if I paint it oxide red...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - theatrically, not very artistically)
tomikawaTT NEMMRRC I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors. Does that make model railroading art now? Jaime The guilty party was probably Frank Ellison, the early (1940s) operations guru. He was a stage manager by profession. I've said that numerous times on this forum, to the extent of referring to my trains as, "Flange-wheeled thespians," and to my netherworld as the dressing rooms and wings that support the on-stage (visible, once the scenery is in) action. That said, the reference is to theater, not visual art. Also, in its present, partially completed state, I would question the sanity of anyone who would refer to my layout as, "Art." On the other hand, it does somewhat resemble that bunch of bent girders in Rancho Cordova. Maybe, if I paint it oxide red... Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - theatrically, not very artistically)
Malcomn Furlow has also said many times that he considers elements of his layout as theatrical stages, John Allen did similar when working on his layout. You can just tell how certian vistas and scenes are specific to a location.
Makes sense, every layout has certain angles or viewing points, the stage so to speak, that the modeler makes to best place to view aspects of a layout, if they are not then they are losing a great opportunity to increase the viewing pleasure of any visitors.
Have fun with your trains
tomikawaTTThe guilty party was probably Frank Ellison, the early (1940s) operations guru. He was a stage manager by profession.
Indeed it was and for the record he was talking about planing layouts for operation with staging tracks and having our trains to enter the "stage" part of the layout from "off stage".
Nope no art here either just a transportation system that runs between point A,B and C.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Ahem....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0890247579?pc_redir=1405494746&robot_redir=1
NEMMRRC Ahem.... http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0890247579?pc_redir=1405494746&robot_redir=1 Jaime
You can name a book anything you want and it means very little in the grand scheme.
BruntonI don't consider my modeling art - I consider it my hobby. I wonder why so many people have to "elevate" their stature in their own eyes by claiming their hobby is something more than it is?
To sound important?
I don't know..I been a model railroader for 60 years and that's what I say my hobby is instead of I'm a "model railroad artist"..
Cool! Let's see your paintings.They might ask.
OOPS! No paintings or drawings. I would be force to reply.
Lair,liar pants on fire is what they would say to me.
Mark,
It's not a matter of "elevating" anyone's status. It's a matter of fitting a common definition. There is plenty of evidence that our hobby is considered by many an art, has many participants whose work is both creative and expressive, and is often recognized as a form of artistic expression by those outside the hobby. No one is trying to force anyone to call what they do art.
Heck, if naked dancing is protected as a form of artistic impression (it is, BTW) then I think a definition of art that includes model railroading as an art form is well within even the legal definition of art. A lot of folks just think such a form of expression is just tawdry and hardly qualifies as art. All I can say is "tell it to the judge." And no, I don't think nude ops sessions, including interpretive dancing, are going to catch on
None of which means anyone who doesn't think of what they are doing as anything more than a hobby is required to don an artist's smock and beret, smoke Gaulouises, drink wine while they work or claim to be an artist.
Hobby? Art? Both make sense, but sometimes folks have trouble thinking outside of the idea of fitting things into little boxes that carefully isolate each category from each other. It may sound radical, but this is one of those cases where holding more than one idea in mind as applying to the same thing is useful. Just because it's art to some doesn't mean it's not your hobby. It can be both. I don't think we do ourselves any favors as a hobby by attempting to define ourselves by what we're not.
Just to throw out yet more evidence -- most of which seems to be more carefully ignored than considered in this thread by those objecting to the idea of model railroading as an art -- is the fact that juried competitions are held to judge various pieces. Yep, those dull, old, been around since the beginning NMRA model contests are for all practical purposes essentially the same as the contests often judged at art shows. Heck they even include photography, gasp! clearly considered by many to be an art! in such competitions.
BRAKIE Brunton I don't consider my modeling art - I consider it my hobby. I wonder why so many people have to "elevate" their stature in their own eyes by claiming their hobby is something more than it is? To sound important? I don't know..I been a model railroader for 60 years and that's what I say my hobby is instead of I'm a "model railroad artist".. Cool! Let's see your paintings.They might ask. OOPS! No paintings or drawings. I would be force to reply. Lair,liar pants on fire is what they would say to me.
Brunton I don't consider my modeling art - I consider it my hobby. I wonder why so many people have to "elevate" their stature in their own eyes by claiming their hobby is something more than it is?
NO! What the REAL Problems is THEY don't want to admit THEY are PLAYING with TOY ELECTRIC TRAINS!
I never had a problem as I was confortable being who I am - ONLY those that can't admit it to the General Public are the ones that try to make it more than it it is - Playing!
We all need some play to keep us from going mad!
Some think they are better Sports Coaches than the ones getting paid!
And Some think they can play Sports better than the ones getting paid!
And I play with little toy trains!
Its all the same!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
My sister, a professional artist, aka: painter, weaver, teacher of art, etc. Has told me time and time again that model railroading is an art form. The definition of art, according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary is:
noun \ˈärt\
: something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings
: works created by artists : paintings, sculptures, etc., that are created to be beautiful or to express important ideas or feelings
: the methods and skills used for painting, sculpting, drawing, etc.
See also: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/art
Yes, I consider Model Railroading to an Art Form as it certainly meets the above criteria. I am a professional musician, BTW, and Music is also an Art and when I was performing I was an Artist.
On the other hand I just consider myself to be a "Model Railroader" without any snobishness involved... Yes the hobby involves art, many forms actually. I think many of you are using "Artist" in the commonly held snob form. But we as model railroaders are indeed artists of a kind, but maybe not "Arteeeests" (uses finger under nose to be elite...). The finger paintings my Granddaughters do in school are "Art". You don't have to be good at it to create Art either... The beautiful paintings and felt weavings my sister creates are also Art! The scenes I create on my Model Railroad in 3D are Art too. No, I don't have to be an "Arteeest" to create Art... LOL But, it is still Art!
I think the greater problem here is the definition some of you are using for the word Art. Oh, and some of the finest artists are classified as Amatuers... the word is derived from the Latin Amo. To do something for the love of it. Even as a "Professional" musician, I still thought of myself as an amateur as I loved what I was doing! The same is true for Model Railroading!!! I do it for the "love" of it.
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Uh OH!
Watch out now, some here are saying that certain layouts qualify as Art, and others don't, that's "Categorizing" and as in the other thread, some people get bent out of shape when you start comparisons.
I think some layouts are so well done that they qualify as Art, HANDS DOWN. John Allens layout is one example, although there are other ones even more so, since he did his Gorre and Daphetid RR.
Some modelers don't care about that and look at it as just a fun hobby and that's OK, but don't knock the artists who create artwork with model railroading.
I met a REAL artist at a train show in Los Angeles. He had his own table with examples of his weathering and detailed airbrushing work on Model RR cars. It was phenomenal artwork compared to the average modeler. SORRY to say his work was better quality than the average modeler but IT WAS. As I talked with him, he told me he used to do miniature movie set modeling, and even large sets for a Major Hollywood movie studio. Computer graphics put him on the unemployment line, and now he is doing other things like selling his skills at a Model RR show.
Does this mean that the average Model Railroader is LESSER of a person? C'mon, lt's give credit where credit is due, give the Craftsmen who create Art and realistic scenery and layouts their props, No need to get bent out of shape because someone is an artist who works with model railroading and does fantastic work compared to the average model railroader. Just be happy with what you do and have fun, and don't be afraid to say some model railtoading is ART when it is.
I say it again..IF MR and couple of guess editorials didn't push the idea MR is a "art" we will not be having this discussion..
As for me it a model of a transportation system and no art can be found in a model.
Now show me the way to a starving modeler's sale.
What's that no such thing?
Funy..Artist have their "Starving Artist sales" and model railroad artist do not..
Wonder why? Nobody interested in buying our "art"?
Some rich dudes bought Malcolm Furlow's model railroad art.
NEMMRRC Some rich dudes bought Malcolm Furlow's model railroad art. Jaime
And I'll bet they paid a lot more than the folks who bought his cattle at auction...
Brakie, Frank Ellison bent my twig toward operation 'way back when. As for A, B and C, if you look at a map of Frank's neighborhood in N'Orleenz, you'll find the names of the Delta Lines' terminal stations and division point - the latter is the street he lived on, while the others intersected with it at the ends of his block...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - operations uber alles)
I've sold some of my ISLs but,nobody in their cotton picking right mind would dare call them art.
I don't consider any layout art including Furlow's model railroad.
A lot of folks buy old layouts or have them custom built..Not art by any definition.
BRAKIENot art by any definition.
"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture...."
"any field using the skills or techniques of art"
"imaginative skill as applied to representations of the natural world or figments of the imagination"
"get something down to a fine art to become highly proficient at something through practice"
I think what we do in Model Railroading can and usually does fit each of the above definitions.
You say, (you) "don't consider any layout art......." I think your last line should read... "Not art by YOUR definition." Most Art teachers today would disagree with you! That said, you re most welcome to your opinion. Others are quite able to hold other opinions.
The Music Textbook I used in 8th. grade music class gave this as a definition of Music as an art, "Music is organized sound." Interesting, as I had been taught a much more narrow definition of music with many more qualifications before it could be called music as a child. For instance in textbooks written in the early 20th. century, Jazz was not at all considered music! Today there are some that would still say that Rap is not Music. However, it certainly fits the definition of "Organized Sound". I don't have to like it for it be actually music. I think that the same can be looked at for all the arts. It likely depends on whether a person has a restricted (narrow) vision of what it is or a more inclusive, broad notion of what it is. BTW, neither viewpoint is really is right or wrong. I bring this up only for consideration amongst this group. I like philosophy, BTW!
Ray, by that standard my grandson's handprints in wet sand are art...
I'm afraid I favor the definition that specifies aesthetic design over simply having fun. If my creative modification of assorted plastic parts from a variety of sources, using skills and techniques that others use to create sculpture, into figments of my imagination (seven axle articulated hoppers, Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo SeKi 500 class) is art, then I'm a Chuhuahua.
Chuck (Modeling things that never were in Central Japan in September, 1964)
tomikawaTTIf my creative modification of assorted plastic parts from a variety of sources, using skills and techniques that others use to create sculpture, into figments of my imagination (seven axle articulated hoppers, Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo SeKi 500 class) is art, then I'm a Chuhuahua.
LOL.... So your a Chuhuahua? According so some definitions I guess you would be. You might enjoy this disertation on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art
As I said, I enjoy philosophy....
73 and keep on building that great layout whether it is art or just having fun! I guess if I was really enjoying performing the Dichterliebe in concert, it wasn't art then???? Hmmmmmm.