I mostly consider paintings art. Now sculpters are considered art. I guess you can call models are.
Recently I saw a cool coffee table with a glass top and a sculpter of sea turtles underneath. It is considered art and was priced at $28,000! No that is not a typo, it was $28,000. I could buy a nice car or boat for that price. Now imagin if you had that much to build a layout. You would have a very nice layout with DCC and sound equipped locomotives. You could also get a nice solid wood coffee table too.
Art is cool, but for the prices they charge, I wouldn't buy it unless I had millions of dollars.
To be honest, if someone asked me put design a modern metal sculpter, I would get an old locomotive, paint it, and put rails down. And it would look better than some of those mangled metal prices they call art.
howmusI bring this up only for consideration amongst this group. I like philosophy, BTW!
Cool!
I like certain types of railroad art like the art renderings railroads used in their advertisements and company calenders..Locomotive manufacturers also used art renderings of new locomotives in railroad trade magazines and Trains Magazines.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Bear,What you are looking at is calender and advertisement drawings/ paintings-these art renderings of locomotives and passenger cars was to push the idea of speed,power and luxury.Freight cars behind the engine was a symbol of fast freight service with big modern locomotives.
The beloved Chessie the cat was nothing more then a advertising tool for C&O.
Did you know Chessie had a husband named Peake and they had three kittens?
Peake was dressed as a solider during WWII.
All rendered in beautiful paintings.
And yes it would be boring if we all agreed..
howmusJaBear... Concerning #2... The museum I volunteer at, the Rochester and Genesee Valley RR Museum now owns the cars in that picture.
I have done a "virtual" visit before Ray but hadn't realised.
Thanks, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
JaBear...
Concerning #2... The museum I volunteer at, the Rochester and Genesee Valley RR Museum now owns the cars in that picture.
OK, back to our regularly scheduled debate...
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
"In for a penny , in for a pound".
BRAKIENope no art here either just a transportation system that runs between point A,B and C.
So with your somewhat pragmatic view, Larry, as these are of a transportation systems motive power, how whould you describe these?
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae169/antiquesofworcester/P1050229.jpg
http://streamlinermemories.info/Steam/EmpireState.jpg
or these?
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_03/locomotive0805_800x340.jpg
http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t461/165thspc/TypicalWartimeLoco_zps864a12a9.jpg
If there was copies of the fourth example done of my favourite NZR Ja locomotive I'd have one framed on my wall.
Cheers, the Bear.
PS. what a terribly boring world it would be if we all agreed on every thing.
Keep in mind that those tending to favor the possibility of art aren't suggesting such a definition be imposed on anyone. It's there to pick from just like "newbie," "scratch-builder," "kit basher," or "armchair model railroader."
I wonder why those disfavoring the idea of model railroading as an art are so insistent that what others do couldn't possibly be doing such a thing?
I don't presume to speak for them. Why are the anti-model-railroading-as-art so insistent that how others choose to describe their work is wrong? After all, those who create something know better than anyone what it is they made, whether it's an art or a craft.
How one describes one's identity is a fundamental human right, but it's still far too common that some people want to impose a label on you, rather than accept you as you are, as you choose to describe yourself.
Heck, I wouldn't even decsribe all I do as art and my guess is most of the artists in the crowd wouldn't either. The art didn't really start, except for some backdrop painting, until the track and basic scenery forms were in as far as the layout is concerned. Other projects have greater or lesser degrees of art. We all know we couldn't survive by art alone, any more than most of us could get by on our good looks.
Yep, I stick to part-time art, because some folks start looking at me kinada funny if I use too much of it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
tomikawaTTIf my creative modification of assorted plastic parts from a variety of sources, using skills and techniques that others use to create sculpture, into figments of my imagination (seven axle articulated hoppers, Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo SeKi 500 class) is art, then I'm a Chuhuahua.
LOL.... So your a Chuhuahua? According so some definitions I guess you would be. You might enjoy this disertation on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art
As I said, I enjoy philosophy....
73 and keep on building that great layout whether it is art or just having fun! I guess if I was really enjoying performing the Dichterliebe in concert, it wasn't art then???? Hmmmmmm.
Ray, by that standard my grandson's handprints in wet sand are art...
I'm afraid I favor the definition that specifies aesthetic design over simply having fun. If my creative modification of assorted plastic parts from a variety of sources, using skills and techniques that others use to create sculpture, into figments of my imagination (seven axle articulated hoppers, Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo SeKi 500 class) is art, then I'm a Chuhuahua.
Chuck (Modeling things that never were in Central Japan in September, 1964)
BRAKIENot art by any definition.
"the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture...."
"any field using the skills or techniques of art"
"imaginative skill as applied to representations of the natural world or figments of the imagination"
"get something down to a fine art to become highly proficient at something through practice"
I think what we do in Model Railroading can and usually does fit each of the above definitions.
You say, (you) "don't consider any layout art......." I think your last line should read... "Not art by YOUR definition." Most Art teachers today would disagree with you! That said, you re most welcome to your opinion. Others are quite able to hold other opinions.
The Music Textbook I used in 8th. grade music class gave this as a definition of Music as an art, "Music is organized sound." Interesting, as I had been taught a much more narrow definition of music with many more qualifications before it could be called music as a child. For instance in textbooks written in the early 20th. century, Jazz was not at all considered music! Today there are some that would still say that Rap is not Music. However, it certainly fits the definition of "Organized Sound". I don't have to like it for it be actually music. I think that the same can be looked at for all the arts. It likely depends on whether a person has a restricted (narrow) vision of what it is or a more inclusive, broad notion of what it is. BTW, neither viewpoint is really is right or wrong. I bring this up only for consideration amongst this group. I like philosophy, BTW!
NEMMRRC Some rich dudes bought Malcolm Furlow's model railroad art. Jaime
Some rich dudes bought Malcolm Furlow's model railroad art.
Jaime
I've sold some of my ISLs but,nobody in their cotton picking right mind would dare call them art.
I don't consider any layout art including Furlow's model railroad.
A lot of folks buy old layouts or have them custom built..Not art by any definition.
And I'll bet they paid a lot more than the folks who bought his cattle at auction...
Brakie, Frank Ellison bent my twig toward operation 'way back when. As for A, B and C, if you look at a map of Frank's neighborhood in N'Orleenz, you'll find the names of the Delta Lines' terminal stations and division point - the latter is the street he lived on, while the others intersected with it at the ends of his block...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - operations uber alles)
I say it again..IF MR and couple of guess editorials didn't push the idea MR is a "art" we will not be having this discussion..
As for me it a model of a transportation system and no art can be found in a model.
Now show me the way to a starving modeler's sale.
What's that no such thing?
Funy..Artist have their "Starving Artist sales" and model railroad artist do not..
Wonder why? Nobody interested in buying our "art"?
Uh OH!
Watch out now, some here are saying that certain layouts qualify as Art, and others don't, that's "Categorizing" and as in the other thread, some people get bent out of shape when you start comparisons.
I think some layouts are so well done that they qualify as Art, HANDS DOWN. John Allens layout is one example, although there are other ones even more so, since he did his Gorre and Daphetid RR.
Some modelers don't care about that and look at it as just a fun hobby and that's OK, but don't knock the artists who create artwork with model railroading.
I met a REAL artist at a train show in Los Angeles. He had his own table with examples of his weathering and detailed airbrushing work on Model RR cars. It was phenomenal artwork compared to the average modeler. SORRY to say his work was better quality than the average modeler but IT WAS. As I talked with him, he told me he used to do miniature movie set modeling, and even large sets for a Major Hollywood movie studio. Computer graphics put him on the unemployment line, and now he is doing other things like selling his skills at a Model RR show.
Does this mean that the average Model Railroader is LESSER of a person? C'mon, lt's give credit where credit is due, give the Craftsmen who create Art and realistic scenery and layouts their props, No need to get bent out of shape because someone is an artist who works with model railroading and does fantastic work compared to the average model railroader. Just be happy with what you do and have fun, and don't be afraid to say some model railtoading is ART when it is.
My sister, a professional artist, aka: painter, weaver, teacher of art, etc. Has told me time and time again that model railroading is an art form. The definition of art, according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary is:
noun \ˈärt\
: something that is created with imagination and skill and that is beautiful or that expresses important ideas or feelings
: works created by artists : paintings, sculptures, etc., that are created to be beautiful or to express important ideas or feelings
: the methods and skills used for painting, sculpting, drawing, etc.
See also: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/art
Yes, I consider Model Railroading to an Art Form as it certainly meets the above criteria. I am a professional musician, BTW, and Music is also an Art and when I was performing I was an Artist.
On the other hand I just consider myself to be a "Model Railroader" without any snobishness involved... Yes the hobby involves art, many forms actually. I think many of you are using "Artist" in the commonly held snob form. But we as model railroaders are indeed artists of a kind, but maybe not "Arteeeests" (uses finger under nose to be elite...). The finger paintings my Granddaughters do in school are "Art". You don't have to be good at it to create Art either... The beautiful paintings and felt weavings my sister creates are also Art! The scenes I create on my Model Railroad in 3D are Art too. No, I don't have to be an "Arteeest" to create Art... LOL But, it is still Art!
I think the greater problem here is the definition some of you are using for the word Art. Oh, and some of the finest artists are classified as Amatuers... the word is derived from the Latin Amo. To do something for the love of it. Even as a "Professional" musician, I still thought of myself as an amateur as I loved what I was doing! The same is true for Model Railroading!!! I do it for the "love" of it.
BRAKIE Brunton I don't consider my modeling art - I consider it my hobby. I wonder why so many people have to "elevate" their stature in their own eyes by claiming their hobby is something more than it is? To sound important? I don't know..I been a model railroader for 60 years and that's what I say my hobby is instead of I'm a "model railroad artist".. Cool! Let's see your paintings.They might ask. OOPS! No paintings or drawings. I would be force to reply. Lair,liar pants on fire is what they would say to me.
Brunton I don't consider my modeling art - I consider it my hobby. I wonder why so many people have to "elevate" their stature in their own eyes by claiming their hobby is something more than it is?
To sound important?
I don't know..I been a model railroader for 60 years and that's what I say my hobby is instead of I'm a "model railroad artist"..
Cool! Let's see your paintings.They might ask.
OOPS! No paintings or drawings. I would be force to reply.
Lair,liar pants on fire is what they would say to me.
NO! What the REAL Problems is THEY don't want to admit THEY are PLAYING with TOY ELECTRIC TRAINS!
I never had a problem as I was confortable being who I am - ONLY those that can't admit it to the General Public are the ones that try to make it more than it it is - Playing!
We all need some play to keep us from going mad!
Some think they are better Sports Coaches than the ones getting paid!
And Some think they can play Sports better than the ones getting paid!
And I play with little toy trains!
Its all the same!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
BruntonI don't consider my modeling art - I consider it my hobby. I wonder why so many people have to "elevate" their stature in their own eyes by claiming their hobby is something more than it is?
Mark,
It's not a matter of "elevating" anyone's status. It's a matter of fitting a common definition. There is plenty of evidence that our hobby is considered by many an art, has many participants whose work is both creative and expressive, and is often recognized as a form of artistic expression by those outside the hobby. No one is trying to force anyone to call what they do art.
Heck, if naked dancing is protected as a form of artistic impression (it is, BTW) then I think a definition of art that includes model railroading as an art form is well within even the legal definition of art. A lot of folks just think such a form of expression is just tawdry and hardly qualifies as art. All I can say is "tell it to the judge." And no, I don't think nude ops sessions, including interpretive dancing, are going to catch on
None of which means anyone who doesn't think of what they are doing as anything more than a hobby is required to don an artist's smock and beret, smoke Gaulouises, drink wine while they work or claim to be an artist.
Hobby? Art? Both make sense, but sometimes folks have trouble thinking outside of the idea of fitting things into little boxes that carefully isolate each category from each other. It may sound radical, but this is one of those cases where holding more than one idea in mind as applying to the same thing is useful. Just because it's art to some doesn't mean it's not your hobby. It can be both. I don't think we do ourselves any favors as a hobby by attempting to define ourselves by what we're not.
Just to throw out yet more evidence -- most of which seems to be more carefully ignored than considered in this thread by those objecting to the idea of model railroading as an art -- is the fact that juried competitions are held to judge various pieces. Yep, those dull, old, been around since the beginning NMRA model contests are for all practical purposes essentially the same as the contests often judged at art shows. Heck they even include photography, gasp! clearly considered by many to be an art! in such competitions.
NEMMRRC Ahem.... http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0890247579?pc_redir=1405494746&robot_redir=1 Jaime
Ahem....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0890247579?pc_redir=1405494746&robot_redir=1
You can name a book anything you want and it means very little in the grand scheme.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
tomikawaTTThe guilty party was probably Frank Ellison, the early (1940s) operations guru. He was a stage manager by profession.
Indeed it was and for the record he was talking about planing layouts for operation with staging tracks and having our trains to enter the "stage" part of the layout from "off stage".
Nope no art here either just a transportation system that runs between point A,B and C.
tomikawaTT NEMMRRC I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors. Does that make model railroading art now? Jaime The guilty party was probably Frank Ellison, the early (1940s) operations guru. He was a stage manager by profession. I've said that numerous times on this forum, to the extent of referring to my trains as, "Flange-wheeled thespians," and to my netherworld as the dressing rooms and wings that support the on-stage (visible, once the scenery is in) action. That said, the reference is to theater, not visual art. Also, in its present, partially completed state, I would question the sanity of anyone who would refer to my layout as, "Art." On the other hand, it does somewhat resemble that bunch of bent girders in Rancho Cordova. Maybe, if I paint it oxide red... Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - theatrically, not very artistically)
NEMMRRC I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors. Does that make model railroading art now? Jaime
I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors.
Does that make model railroading art now?
The guilty party was probably Frank Ellison, the early (1940s) operations guru. He was a stage manager by profession.
I've said that numerous times on this forum, to the extent of referring to my trains as, "Flange-wheeled thespians," and to my netherworld as the dressing rooms and wings that support the on-stage (visible, once the scenery is in) action.
That said, the reference is to theater, not visual art. Also, in its present, partially completed state, I would question the sanity of anyone who would refer to my layout as, "Art."
On the other hand, it does somewhat resemble that bunch of bent girders in Rancho Cordova. Maybe, if I paint it oxide red...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - theatrically, not very artistically)
Malcomn Furlow has also said many times that he considers elements of his layout as theatrical stages, John Allen did similar when working on his layout. You can just tell how certian vistas and scenes are specific to a location.
Makes sense, every layout has certain angles or viewing points, the stage so to speak, that the modeler makes to best place to view aspects of a layout, if they are not then they are losing a great opportunity to increase the viewing pleasure of any visitors.
Have fun with your trains
mlehmanI think one would be hard-pressed to make the argument that weathering isn't art.
Seeing some "weathered" cars..Nope not even close modern art..
Some may resemble a palette after the artist is finish painting.
Troels Kirk, builder of the Coast Line RR On30 layout, is an artist by trade. You should see his layout ...
By the hat...I would say one looks to be a,'' not so pretty woman''.
Take Care!
Frank
Art Curren.
Enough said.