Sir Madog "He said, it´s model railroading" - "Impossible - he got all the NBW castings wrong!"
"He said, it´s model railroading" - "Impossible - he got all the NBW castings wrong!"
There you go. Those fellows look like art critics, too...
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
NEMMRRC I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors. Does that make model railroading art now? Jaime
I forget the fellow that once wrote a column on MR about our model railroad layouts being a stage and the trains being actors.
Does that make model railroading art now?
Jaime
I believe you're talking about Frank Ellison.
And it's an excellent example that the idea that some of us, as well as others, consider model railroading as art isn't really new at all. In fact, it's part of the genesis of the hobby, whether people want to acknowledge that or not. Ellison used the theater metaphor, because it was one that everyone understood. Heck, lots of people still alive then remembered when the first movies came out...silent ones.
In modern terms, I think the theater metaphor still works. But there are others that may work just as well. Performance art would certainly apply to the typical ops session. Photography was already mentioned. Certainly writing about model railroading involves elements of art, as does the often complex videography connected to our hobby. Heck, they're even making a movie about the hobby: http://modelcitizensmovie.com/
I think one would be hard-pressed to make the argument that weathering isn't art. Heck, it usually even involves paint -- an artist would feel right at home, although it might take several "canvasses" for even an experienced artist to get that idea.
Don't think so..Makes them a actor..You see actors on stage not art..
With that thought..Naw..None of my "actors" is worthy of a Academy Award.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sir MadogFollowing her view, any well-done layout comes very close to being a work of art. There are a number of layouts presented her, that qualify for that. Being just a model railroader is certainly not enough.
Ulrich,
I'll agree, there's good art and bad, good model railroads and bad. Probably helps to think of it like a giant Venn diagram. There are different categories and differing relationships between the categories.
I'll also say there's another way in which art and model railroading demonstrate a decidedly common trait in going beyond the simple fact there's bad art and bad model railroading. Both artists and model railroaders have a certain tendency to claim something isn't even in the respective category if they don't like it. "That's not model railroading!" is heard just as "That's not art!" is by some offended by either.
Mike,
Interesting aspects! I have discussed the issue of model railroading being an art with my wife (after nearly 30 years of marriage we still talk to each other ), who comes from an artist family of painters, sculptors and singers and who is a gifted painter herself. Her opinion is somewhat diplomatic - while model railroading may not be an art in itself, it does take a lot what makes up an artist - dedication, skill and a good feeling for scenes, colors etc.
Following her view, any well-done layout comes very close to being a work of art. There are a number of layouts presented her, that qualify for that. Being just a model railroader is certainly not enough.
Jaime,
Photography is a lot like model railroading. There are those who say it's art and those who'll say it's just a picture. But I think a larger percentage of photographers see themselves as artists now and photographic art is unquestionably regarded as art by artists. Model railroading, not so much.
So yes, photography of modelling -- and certainly railfan photography -- is art -- if you want it to be.
Does the photograph of a model railroad count as art?
BRAKIEBRAKIE wrote the following post 44 minutes ago: mlehman If one has a narrow view of what art is, then I suppose one could exclude model railroading from the category of art. I kinda sense "art" actually adds up to a four-letter something based on many of the replies. And if MR didn't use the word" art" in some of their editorials and by couple of guest columnist I highly suspect this type of discussion would not be.
Larry,
I know art when I see it. And I'm sure I'm not the only, just as I'm equally sure lots of people have your reaction.
All I know is I know is a lot of what I see in the pages of MR, other publications, here in the forum and elsewhere on the 'net qualifies as art, whether or not that was their creator's intent.
Sir MadogIn Europe, we tend to have a much narrower view on what art is and artists are. Anything not belonging to the traditional arts, i.e. painting, literature, music, performing arts, sculptoring etc, we rather understand as crafts.
I suspect you're not hanging out with with the right "art crowd." I don't doubt at all that very traditional view of art comprises a large part of the arts crowd. It does here, too. But there is a pretty strong component that now sees the distinction made between arts and crafts as entirely artiificial, contrived, and little more than marketing to pump up art prices, which I suggest might be a large part of the real answer to why such distinctions are made.
On the other hand, hang out with certain, shall we say more cutting edge artist crowd and the view is decidedly more diverse. It's less of an academic thing, although I think becoming stronger there every year, than it is one that tends to offer systemic critiques. For them, the arts are no more immune from such critiques and reflections than politics , business, journalism, science, and medicine.
I have to confess that I tend to be a bit more sensitive to such issues than even many artists. I was among the founders of and for several years what was effectively the chief adminstrative officer for a media and arts cooperative that specializes in promoting such an expansive view of what art is. Frankly, I came from the media/political side of things and dealing with art was a bit out of my comfort zone, but I did come to appreciate the view that we're all artists. Promoting an elitist view of art as something one has to qualify for was exactly the thing our model of organization was designed to critique by offering an alternative vision that we all are artists in some way, whether we realize it or not.
So to a certain extent, that has rubbed off on me and my relationship to the hobby. I don't offer this up as a way to stick "Artist" labels on the backs of my unsuspecting fellow model railroaders -- that does beat "Kick me!" though, don't ya know? But I do think much of what makes model railroading what it is directly maps over to what artists do.
Artists spend as much time as we do on our creations because the work has deep meaning for both. That expression of individual meaning might be a painting or it might be a well-composed scene on a layout. Both spring from many of the same motivations and offer the artist/modeler deep satisfaction -- or sometime just frustration that a better expression could have been made, which I think is common with model railroaders, too. Look at how many layouts get rebuilt after the "artists" become dissatisfied with the work they've done. Then there's all those previous versions that often underlie some of those great European paintings. Yep, tear it out, start over. Maybe it's artists who are just unfulfilled model railroaders?
I'm not sure why we are even discussing whether or not those dioramas are art. And I've looked at the link several times and see nothing refering to what those dioramas would sell for.
What I think is more important is to discuss the modeling. Certainly the flood scene is very well done. And the second to last photo with the Pikestuff building, the billboard, and the highway overpass also should give people some ideas. All it would need would be a railroad bridge in the background to qualify as "model railroad related".
mlehmanIf one has a narrow view of what art is, then I suppose one could exclude model railroading from the category of art. I kinda sense "art" actually adds up to a four-letter something based on many of the replies.
And if MR didn't use the word" art" in some of their editorials and by couple of guest columnist I highly suspect this type of discussion would not be.
As much as I've tried I can not find art in "Model Railroading" since we model a transportation system.
I truly doubt if model "truckers" used the word "art" for their dioramas of truck stops and industries..
BTW.They too are modeling a transportation system.
I think we have a cultural issue here.
In Europe, we tend to have a much narrower view on what art is and artists are. Anything not belonging to the traditional arts, i.e. painting, literature, music, performing arts, sculptoring etc, we rather understand as crafts.
In the US, to my understanding, the term art has a very broad use. Make-up artist, nail artist? Model railroading artist?
Let´s keep it to this - if, in the eyes of a US model railroader, I am an artist, so it be!
Sir MadogWhen I presented my current work, a member there called me an artist. I strongly resent being called an artist! Mischief If I remember my art classes from way back when, there are impressionists, expressionists, dadaists, mannerists, realists, romantics, there is gothic, art nouveau, baroque, renaissance, modernism - the list being by far not exhaustive. I don´t think that building a model of the real world falls into any of these categories!
If one has a narrow view of what art is, then I suppose one could exclude model railroading from the category of art. I kinda sense "art" actually adds up to a four-letter something based on many of the replies.
Most of what we do is actually art, even those who disclaim any intent of making such a thing. We use certain media, have certain categories of expression, and often use it to tell a story which might not be obvious with those who are uninformed, but which certainly has meaning to those creating it and, quite often, to those appreciating it based on standards and values that are widely shared within a community.
I suspect what everyone has their knickers in a twist in a twist is over some stereotype of an artist. That avoids any deeper consideration of what model railroaders do -- and that's fine so long as you're happy with setting up strawmen to knock over. Realistically, we do art, certainly by the expansive definition that art is usally seen as by anyone who cares about it. While some of the critiques here are clearly negative, they nonethelss validate the idea that model railroading is art by their very existance. As someone already mentioned, the fact that you're talking about one person's art and comparing it to what you or others do is a pretty strong indicator that what we do is indeed art.
Which doesn't, BTW, exclude model railroading being a hobby, craft, or simply work. It can be all of those things or none of them and still be art.
When I presented my current work, a member there called me an artist.
I strongly resent being called an artist!
If I remember my art classes from way back when, there are impressionists, expressionists, dadaists, mannerists, realists, romantics, there is gothic, art nouveau, baroque, renaissance, modernism - the list being by far not exhaustive. I don´t think that building a model of the real world falls into any of these categories!
Steven Otte Hate to ruin it for you, but that was an April Fool's joke.
Hate to ruin it for you, but that was an April Fool's joke.
I still have that cartoon MR ran about a guy's new hobby-modeling a abandon rail line complete with weeds-his wife said to another woman she was glad George(?) found a hobby."George" had his feet propped up sound asleep.
------------------------------
In the past I have sold some of my small ISLs but,one could hardly call them art regardless of the definition they tried using.
Of course, you missed my point.
I give up. This thread is as dumb as many of the replies.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainIf you didn't know it was a Renoir painting, I wonder how much you might pay for it if you saw it in a flea market? Rich
Or if you didn't know it might be a $100 million Leonardo, you might sell a portrait for $22,000 at your gallery.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/02/lost-da-vinci/o-neill-text
Steve S
Steven S richhotrain I think that you might want to research Michael Ashkin a bit before ridiculing his art work on this forum. Not so much ridiculing it as pointing out that a quality photo diorama might sell for $50, but put the tag "art" on it and you could add a zero or two onto the price. Steve S
richhotrain I think that you might want to research Michael Ashkin a bit before ridiculing his art work on this forum.
Not so much ridiculing it as pointing out that a quality photo diorama might sell for $50, but put the tag "art" on it and you could add a zero or two onto the price.
Many outside the model railroad community believe that Rod Stewart's obsession with "toy trains" is the result of years of drug use.
So who are we to judge the tastes of others?
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
richhotrainI think that you might want to research Michael Ashkin a bit before ridiculing his art work on this forum.
vsmith
Who snuck that Malcolm Furlow layout on here?
Actually, I've seen almost that much track on an N scale layout (3 levels, and it worked!) on a tea tray. It was a Tetsudo Mokei Shumi cover story several years ago. Not only was it a runnable track plan (albiet with very short trains) but it included structures that were severely compressed but recognizable representations of Tokyo landmarks.
In my biased opinion, THAT was art!
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Steven OtteNEMMRRC I wonder will MR publish one of his submissions? Jaime When it includes a train.
I'm not certain that including a train is really a criteria. Did not MR publish a photo or article about something called "NOtrack"?
"ART, is whatever you can get away with..." Marshall McLuhan
The Medusa's Head, model trains wrapped around an asteroid
Artist: Chris Burden (be more impressive if all the trains worked (Magnatraction Chris Magnatraction)
I myself have always considered model railroading a kinetic art form.
Have fun with your trains
NEMMRRC I wonder will MR publish one of his submissions? Jaime
I wonder will MR publish one of his submissions?
When it includes a train.
Since it doesn't, I'll give you guys a little while to find some way to make this thread on-topic, else it goes bye-bye.
richhotrain Shame on you guys. Steven Otte should lock this thread. Just another example of bashing people who aren't here to defend themselves. Rich
Shame on you guys.
Steven Otte should lock this thread.
Just another example of bashing people who aren't here to defend themselves.
richhotrainI think that you might want to research Michael Ashkin a bit before ridiculing his art work on this forum. All is not what it appears to be.
All is not what it appears to be.
Michael Ashkin is an American artist who makes sculptures, videos, photographs and installations depicting marginalized, desolate landscapes.[1] He is best known for his use of miniature scale and modest materials.[2] Ashkin also authored Garden State, a book which compares the New Jersey Meadowlands to a formal garden. [3] He is a contributing author to (Untitled) Experience of Place. [4] Ashkin was born in Morristown, New Jersey, and received an M.A. in Middle East Languages and Cultures from Columbia University. Before becoming an artist, he taught Arabic and worked as a computer programmer for investment banks. [5] Ashkin's work was included in Documenta 11 in 2002, and in the 1997 Whitney Biennial. He is a professor at Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning as well as a 2009 Guggenheim Fellow.
Ashkin also authored Garden State, a book which compares the New Jersey Meadowlands to a formal garden. [3] He is a contributing author to (Untitled) Experience of Place. [4]
Ashkin was born in Morristown, New Jersey, and received an M.A. in Middle East Languages and Cultures from Columbia University. Before becoming an artist, he taught Arabic and worked as a computer programmer for investment banks. [5] Ashkin's work was included in Documenta 11 in 2002, and in the 1997 Whitney Biennial. He is a professor at Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning as well as a 2009 Guggenheim Fellow.