richhotrain Athearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10.
Athearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10.
There are quite a few BB cars on eBay right now with a "Buy it Now" less than $10. And a lot less than their original MSRP. Blue Box are junk. Buy a real kit.
richhotrainAthearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10.
Rich,Join me in going to my favorite train shows like Berea,Wooster(Dalton) Bucyrus and Marion and look at all the $3-5.00 BB and MDC cars..How about older BB kits 3/10.00? How about common Bev-Bel/Athearn for 3/$10.00?
Rich,Ya gotta know your prices and what may or may not be readily available.
With that said.
I have bought some hard to find road names for as high as $12.99 BIN-I just grit my teeth and paid the price since these road names isn't readily available at the shows I mention and I knew the price was above the going price when and if you find them at a show and if you will recall that old saying a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.That was my thought when I decided to buy those cars.
Another thing is a lot of the Bev-Bel/Athearn and MDC road names has been release by Athearn as RTR..So,I keep that in mind too because some of those cars can be had for $16-18.00 BIN.
Then there's the Atlas Trainman cars that can be had for around $12-16.00 with the same road names.
See what I mean when I say you gotta know your prices?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I have also bought the majority of my model railroad items on e-bay. When I purchaed items on e-bay if they were not "new" I checked the prices being paid for the item as used and will only pay a sibstansially reduced price for that item.
It the items were new I made sure I did not pay any more than what I could have bought the items for including shipping at some of the large model train discount stores.
I only had one instance of an item not being what it was represented as, it was an Intermountain EMD F unit in an A B setup, it had been out of production for some years and was considered hard to find. It was advertised as "hardley used"
It was true that there was only minor wheel wear but the pc board for the lights and been taken out and was missing. I lodged a complaint with E-Bay and the vendor responded that the light was a minor item and could be bought for less than a $1.00. E-Bay seemed to have not undertood that the PC Bpard that was missing was for both headlights, a mars light and the number boards and sided with the vendor and I did not get any type of reduction.
However, I was more than surprised to find out the when I contacted Intermountain to inquire ahout a replacement PC board they sent me one at no charge. That was the first Intermountain unit that I bought, but not the last, I have about two dozen AB EMD F unit sets now, most with sound.
So, to summarize, I do not find any pitfalls when buying used engines, provided one practices a due dilegence approach before bidding on any items.
Used locos are always a good deal if you buy one. For those common items 1,000+ copies extant or more, condition is going to be your worry. Sure! It is common, not rare, and with that the price is usually low. You need to get hot under the collar if you pay the price and get damaged or ill-described items. However, "Sold as is" means you have no leg to stand on....The seller was clear and adamant. I will not bid on an item with this well explained caveat.
However, rarer items and items that are long discontinued such that most are gone, destroyed or damaged can make what was a moderately common item, rare. These can have an entirely different bidding crowd such that they will receive zero bids as no one wants or needs the item with a high opening bid or some one person has wanted one of this item for years and just tuned in to the auction and has a lot of cash. He will own this item!!! It, effectively, at this moment, has no real market value as he will bid it to the roof against all comers. It had no value because there is not a real market for it, normally. A brass GP-9 may have a hundred interested folks huddled up to bid and many of these may have been sold in the last two years. This has a common market value. There can still be some whack job in the mix who has more money than brains or a lust that he must see it in his hands and no other. You will never know until the close.
In closing, the rarer items are the ones where you will see no bids at all, one winning bid at the starting price or some insane sum spent by a "must have" winner.
If you are bidding on normal, common stuff and expect a nice item to arrive if you win, be very careful and read the condition carefully and watch out for "sold as is".
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
richhotrainThe sellers feedback rating is critical, especially on used items. For me, it always has to be 100%.
If the seller has thousands of sales and 99% feed back I will research the negative for the reasons.I found 99% of the time it was the buyer expecting more then he was getting or was unhappy with the shipping time or communication.
I will repeat myself..Know your prices..There are sellers that jack up their prices above MSRP or think they have something rare and hard to find when in all truth its very common.
Also $65.00 BB engines can be had from other dealers cheaper and can be found at train shows.
Again know your going used prices so you won't get burnt.
The sellers feeback rating is critical, especially on used items. For me, it always has to be 100%.
The sellers feedback on new items is important but for big time sellers, the rating is almost always less than 100% because a few buyers ar always going to be sour grapes. Item not as described, delivery too slow, never received the item, seller is a moron, etc. But if the feedback is lower than 99%, forget it.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi,
I've watched this thread with interest and decided to throw in my 10 cents..........
- I collect post war (WWII) Lionel trains, stamps and coins. Each of those groupings have annual catalogs from various sources touting current market value. The experts in all these hobby venues will tell you the same thing, that those published values are - at best - what a brick & mortar retailer will sell the item for. There may be exceptions, but they are very few and very far between - often the result of a couple hard headed bidders in heated competition.
- I've bought and sold stuff (mostly trains) on Ebay for 13 years. As others here have said, "market value" comes down to what a willing buyer and willing seller will agree to. Its as simple as that.
- The catch in all this is that an item may sell for minimum value on one day, and max value another day. Buying and Selling in an auction venue is really just a crapshoot. In example, last year I had 12 offerings of Athearn cars go unsold the weeks before Christmas. After Christmas, I relisted at the same prices and 10 quickly got bids, and three of the offerings had some minor bidding competition.
- Once again, if you are going to buy off Ebay (or any venue), check feedback, seller info, read the fine print, assume NOTHING, and ask questions.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
BRAKIE richhotrain The winning bid is always the market value. Sorry,Rich that's not always the case especially if you had two having a full throttle go at a bidding war and end up paying far more then the item is worth. How can a blue box car be worth more then $10.00? Yet,I've seen BIN prices that was twice the normal going price. How can a very common BB SW7 with no handrails have a BIN price of $65.00? You can buy a P2K switcher for that. Simply put buyer know your prices.
richhotrain The winning bid is always the market value.
Sorry,Rich that's not always the case especially if you had two having a full throttle go at a bidding war and end up paying far more then the item is worth.
How can a blue box car be worth more then $10.00? Yet,I've seen BIN prices that was twice the normal going price.
How can a very common BB SW7 with no handrails have a BIN price of $65.00? You can buy a P2K switcher for that.
Simply put buyer know your prices.
I will give you another example. This past summer, I was in the process of putting together a set of 8 Walthers non-plated Super Chief cars. My average purchase price on eBay was approximately $50. But I still needed the observation car which was available as a Buy It Now for $100 or more. They just sat there unsold. So, I finally emailed the seller and offered $80 which he accepted. Willing, happy and informed buyer and seller. Market value of the observation car? $80. That is about what that car sells for ever since. It became a benchmark for buyers.
BRAKIE Doughless And since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry Bob,Don't be sorry for sound advice..A person better know the true market value of a use engine or car or he can be burnt by overpaying.
Doughless And since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry
Bob,Don't be sorry for sound advice..A person better know the true market value of a use engine or car or he can be burnt by overpaying.
Larry, I will agree with you that Doughless should have no reason to be sorry. The notion of market value can be a valid part of this discussion.
The problem with trying to determine market value by placing a dollar amount on an item in advance of its sale is that it is totally subjective.
For example, my wife and I collected Department 56 ceramic houses for awhile. There was a book published annually with "market values" for each item. Ridiculous. Market value, says who? The author of the book? Market values for those books were based upon eBay sale prices as well as third party transactions of a few national exchanges.
Going back to model railroad items, if you look at the Completed Items section of eBay and the Sold section of eBay, you can quickly determine the breakpoint between sold and unsold items and the average price of sold items. In other words, market value.
Dougless, don't be sorry. Your initial comment added to the discussion, it did not detract from it.
DoughlessAnd since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry
richhotrainThe winning bid is always the market value.
richhotrain farrellaa Market value is not always true on Ebay. I have lost many auctions because some people don't know the value or just want something so bad they will pay 50% or more over 'market value'. I ususally put in my highest bid and let it ride. If I win, great; if I don't thats OK because it was more than I was willing to pay. When I pay fair market value I expect to get just that, assuming the seller has been upfront and honest in his descriptiion. -Bob Bob, I have to disagree with you. The winning bid is always the market value. A willing seller and a willing buyer. That is the definition of market value. Rich
farrellaa Market value is not always true on Ebay. I have lost many auctions because some people don't know the value or just want something so bad they will pay 50% or more over 'market value'. I ususally put in my highest bid and let it ride. If I win, great; if I don't thats OK because it was more than I was willing to pay. When I pay fair market value I expect to get just that, assuming the seller has been upfront and honest in his descriptiion. -Bob
Market value is not always true on Ebay. I have lost many auctions because some people don't know the value or just want something so bad they will pay 50% or more over 'market value'. I ususally put in my highest bid and let it ride. If I win, great; if I don't thats OK because it was more than I was willing to pay. When I pay fair market value I expect to get just that, assuming the seller has been upfront and honest in his descriptiion.
-Bob
Bob, I have to disagree with you.
The winning bid is always the market value.
A willing seller and a willing buyer.
That is the definition of market value.
Well....to get off on a boring tangent: I think in the legal world, when it defines market value as a willing buyer and willing seller, there is an implied assumption that both parties are reasonably informed.
When buying or selling a house, most people hire a professional, an agent, who has a current database at hand of what comparable properties are going for. That's how they determine the list price. If an uninformed seller does not hire a professional, and willingly lists their "$100,000" house for $50,000, and a willing buyer snaps it up, I don't think the owners of other comparable houses would consider $50,000 to be market value.
Or a knowledgeable car collector willingly buys an original 1970 hemi 'cuda convertible out of a willing little old ladiy's barn for $5,000.
I think both parties need to be reasonably informed, not just willing, in order for a transaction to be considered market value.
I think there are some other conditions as well. Like, the parties have to be at "arms length", meaning independent motives. These nuances can sometimes can be important (not really on this forum though), because I can't avoid remitting state sales tax by selling an expensive item to my brother for $1.
Exactly what this has to do with our discussion of selling used model trains, I don't know...
And since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry
- Douglas
the seller didnt know, or mention, the missing headlight lens....yeah right. "as is" lets him sleep better, hoping he gets by with it without the buyer contesting it. if i sold you that engine, i would have told you like it really is....glad you got it fixed...
Used train buyer beware, buyer take care
Jim
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
BRAKIE Berlin Mills Ry Jade Green 50' boxcar
Russell
Being a long horse trader I have a good handle on what a item is worth..
As I mention several times before on various threads some times modelers don't know the value of what they have.
As a example..
Bev-Bel made a one run of a certain road name like (say) Berlin Mills Ry Jade Green 50' boxcar.These cars can fetch up to $40.00 whereas more common tan ACF 50' Atlantic & Western boxcar will bring $8-10.00 on a good day.
Me too. Usually a one bid sale.
Doughless, I agree with that. I set a starting bid with the full expectation that I will at least get that amount.
My auctions often close with only one bid - - - the starting bid - - - and I am happy with that.
Rich,
Good point. But I think experienced buyers and sellers tend to have an idea what price something will fetch and sellers try to get the price to that point. They can establish a high reserve, a high starting bid, or even a low bid to spark a bidding war.
If they have a high feedback count, then they are probably experienced and know what the item is and its condition and its near market value, and I would be cautious of ambigous descriptions.
I guess if the seller's offering doesn't feel right, its probably best to avoid it.
Trouble is, what is market value on a used item like a locomotive or piece of rolling stock?
When I sell used equipment, I go back and look at what I originally paid and then set a starting bid at around 50 percent of that purchase price. From there, the auction determines the market value.
mlehman Doughless Someone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker. IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief. On the other hand, if someone slaps a 99 cent opening bid on something and says "as is" it's really hard to start calling them a thief. In fact, assuming people are thieves because their auction listing is flaky is probably a bit of a stretch.
Doughless Someone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker. IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief.
On the other hand, if someone slaps a 99 cent opening bid on something and says "as is" it's really hard to start calling them a thief. In fact, assuming people are thieves because their auction listing is flaky is probably a bit of a stretch.
Mike,
I agree that my borderline thief comment was a bit of a stretch, because we never really know the seller's intentions. I think the starting bid price can be an indication of a seller's intentions, but its not perfect.
A 99 cent starting bid would tend to suggest that the seller is sincere and is simply willing to live with an eventual low selling price as a trade off for putting little effort into describing their item.
There are many sellers who do investigate what other comparable items go for.
IMO, a minimum bid that is set close to a market price of a locomotive in "clean" condition, tends to imply that the item itself is in clean condition. If it is not, the seller needs to disclose the deficiencies or supply enough pictures to let the bidders figure it out.
A near market value minimum bid coupled with poor pictures and a comment "as-is" condtion should set off red flags.
I'll couple into the statement about the ignorance of some of the sellers on e-bay.
What very few engines I have bought on e-bay are all brass. The only reason I do that is that I am in HOn3 and really no one has ever made a mass produced HOn3 engine of any quality. Roundhouse did make an inside frame, HOn3 consolidation and a shay, both in kit form, way back when, but they were intrinsically designed as a base level frame for talented kit bashers and served well in that area. Only limited brass runs of various specific detailed HOn3 models for the different roads were ever produced.
Based on age, one just knows the typical open frame motors need to be replaced and what you receive will not run worth a toot compared to Blackstone's modern stuff that runs fabulously with full sound for about $340.00. The trouble is Blackstone only makes two models. Bottom line, if you want any engine other than D&RGW K-27 or C-19 you are pushed into brass..... Usually old brass and can figure on another 200+ bucks after you get the engine for remotoring and DCC sound. The great part is you have an odd ball, special narrow gauge RGS, C&S or DSP&P engine that will make your road special.
So, a broken coupler, a missing headlight a bent tender, a missing truck or an absolutely terrible amateur paint job is just fine if the price is right. We narrow gauge folks have to accept a lot less off e-bay for all the above reasons. You just know that you are looking at many hours and some more bucks to bring anything you get in an HOn3 loco up to 2014 standards.
Caveat Emptor doesn't hold here. You know that what ever you pay, you are signing on for a lot of work and some expense ahead if you win the auction.
I buy most of my engines on Ebay and have had a very good success rate so far. I just bought a sound/DCC equipped Bachmann Spectrum N&W J class 4-8-4 that was listed as 'like new' and I paid $96.00 plus $19.95 shipping from Canada. When I got the engine it didn't want to run but the sound worked. I worked on it for 2 days and finally got it running OK but it would lock up every 8-10 feet and I realized there was a driver quartering issue. I contacted the seller and he agreed to a full refund and return shipping. It cost me $37.95 to ship it back to Canada, which he refunded. This is a good ending to what could have been a bad story, but sometimes you get lucky. I just replaced that engine with a BLI J Class that runs and sounds great, also purchased on Ebay. Every Ebay purchase is a gamble in some way and relies on the honesty of the seller. Even if the photos and description look OK, you still don't really know what you will get. I have found that Ebay sales from real hobby shops and dealers is a pretty safe purchase.
DoughlessSomeone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker. IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief.
Sure, be cautious, but I think you underestimate the legitimate ignorance of many sellers on ebay. Many have a "toy train" to sell -- and that's about all they know. You're absolutely right about the cautions and red flags.
You're still more likely to find a bargain than a rip-off. The simple fact is never pay so much you'll be disappointed in such a purchase. It's talking yourself into getting something on the cheap and then finding out there's a reason it's cheap that gets you in trouble at least as often as any nefarious doings by the seller.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
cacole I've even seen photos taken by a seller who was so out in left field that they had the tender backwards or called the tender a 'coal car'.
I've even seen photos taken by a seller who was so out in left field that they had the tender backwards or called the tender a 'coal car'.
Coal car.
ahh, does that bring back memories.
As a kid, my American Flyer steamer consisted of an "engine" and a "coal car"
The first time that the guy in my LHS made reference to the "tender" on an HO scale steamer, I had no idea what he was talking about.
I have generally purchased used diesels and steamers at a local quarterly swap meet, where they offer a test track service to verify operability before you buy- of course, you are also able to inspect the actual engine as well. Most of the vendors are up front about what they are offering- I picked up a Proto 2K that had the early "cracked gear" issue, but was informed of it and was able to obtain replacement gears, so that $15.00 price was a bargain. On a few online e-Bay purchases of diesels, I have copied down the photo images supplied by the seller to verify that what I bought and received in the mail was the same item, but only bought from those sellers with highest ratings!
Cedarwoodron