Hello everyone. I recently purchased a Kato F-7 A,B set from an on-line sight that we're not supposed to mention here on the forum. Anyways, I got the set for a fair price considering that others had the same set listed for twice and even three times of what I paid for mine but when it arrived and I began inspecting it I found that it was missing its headlight lense and had been badly modified to accept a different front coupler than it originally came with. I couldn't really find fault with the seller because he/she stated in the listing that it was used and ran well but was being sold AS IS... Luckily I had a spare light lense to replace the missing one and was able to repair the damaged area with a little glue, plastic filler and paint. I also want to mention the fact that both units ran just fine after a good wheel cleaning so I can't complain there. I'm quite happy with the set now but will be very leery of buying used engines from now on...
Anyone else out there have a story like this ?.
Tracklayer
It really all depends.
I have sold a number of used locos, diesels and steamers, on eBay just because I had way too many and needed to pare down my inventory. The buyers got some very nice locos and at some pretty decent prices.
In a few cases where there was a damaged or missing part, I made that clear in the description.
A lot depends upon the seller's feedback rating and the potential buyer's ability to ask the right questions.
Rich
Alton Junction
AS IS is as is. The seller may be aware of a defect, it might be obvious from the pics, or it could just be that the seller is selling an item they aren't familier with. Could be a used equipment dealer who goes through a lot of locos and doesn't have time to test them. Could be an estate sale, where the party who knew everything has gone to the Great Layout in the Sky. Could be an open invitation to send an email for more details if you're curious, with no guarantee you'll still find out everything.
When I buy used equipment, especially if it's cheap, then I assume at least one defect and am not surprised to find more. But the buyer typically planning the purchase for a parts source can see the part they need is OK. Or it's a basket case, but you don't mind trying to get it running if the cost is low. But I've sold items for 99 cents that were virtually NIB, too. AS IS is luck of the draw. Don't spend more than will make you disappointed if there's a major undisclosed defect. It goes with the territory. Your train karma will even things out -- if you've been taking care of it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
That's the risk of buying anything "as is". You gotta be willing to take it however it arrives.
When buying something on eBay (you're allowed to mention them here on the forum), I look at several key factors before deciding whether to bid on an item or not: (In no particular order)
When each of those questions is sufficiently answered, I then have all the info I need to choose whether or not to place a bid on the item. If an item is "as is" or the seller says "no returns", I REALLY have to want the item in order to take the risk.
I've found some great deals on eBay over the past 14 years. The key to successful buying is to be cautious and selective about the things you purchase, as well as patient in waiting for the price you can live with. Out of 61 items I've purchased on eBay so far, there was only one that I somewhat regretted and that was early on in my eBay-buying experience. The vast majority of purchases that I've made I've been VERY happy with.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom pretty much covers how to protect yourself from making bad decisions about eBay purchases. My biggest problem is not asking enough questions. I tend to be too trusting that the item does not have hidden damage. I haven't been burned very often (186 purchases to date - don't tell my wife!) but I could have avoided any disappointments had I asked for more or clearer photos and descriptions.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I just bought some used engines and I am still working on figuring out the issues with them.
I don't believe this, but as mentioned in another thread about Bachmann engines, I mentioned that I had just today received two Alaska GP-40s that I purchased off of ebay recently. Well. I get out to my train room a few minutes ago and open the boxes to inspect them and the first one was okay but the second one had a broken front coupler, the horns were broken off of the top of it and it's missing the A in Alaska on one side - and these were brand new engines... I'm waiting until I cool down to write the seller because I don't want to say anything I might later regret but I want this made right.
unless it is marked otherwise, the only used units I buy are in decent shape, other than that I buy new.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I have bought several used cars and engines off e-bay with 100% satisfaction.
My method on buying use locomotives and cars is simple.
1.I have a list of trusted e-bay sellers..I highly suggest making a list..Add a seller after the 5th transaction.This works wonders..I also have a list of preferred e-bay stores that I have dealt with.
2.Photos..Study those photos by scrutinizing the item looking for any defects.
3.Pass over any dark or blurry photos as a red flag no sale-unless you like buying a pig in a poke.
4.Buying as-is is a yellow flag for me..I really scrutinized those photos and I find that "as is" in some cases means its total fixer upper or a total wreck and move on.I have also rolled the dice since the photo show no major issues and was happy with the item.
-----------------------------------
My thought if you do end up with a lemon cannibalize it for parts or park it in the weeds by your engine house.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
On the used locomotive internet market - a seller needs to disclose all deficiencies with the item, or run the risk of getting negative feed back.
Reputable sellers will take proper pictures of the locomotive, and then describe to the best of their knowledge any deficiencies in the running quality, or disclose that they no nothing about the running quality. Its not that hard for a seller who has no experience with selling trains to tell if something on the outside is broken or missing. Many times I see these sellers at least say "may have some small parts missing".
Someone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker.
IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief.
- Douglas
Doughless On the used locomotive internet market - a seller needs to disclose all deficiencies with the item, or run the risk of getting negative feed back. Reputable sellers will take proper pictures of the locomotive, and then describe to the best of their knowledge any deficiencies in the running quality, or disclose that they no nothing about the running quality. Its not that hard for a seller who has no experience with selling trains to tell if something on the outside is broken or missing. Many times I see these sellers at least say "may have some small parts missing". Someone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker. IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief.
Agreed, agreed, agreed.
And the thing about it is that an honest seller can still sell his item and at a reasonable price.
In a few instances where i sold a loco with a damaged or missing part, I said so in the description and included a photo of the area of the damaged or missing part. Still got the price I wanted on the winning bid.
One thing that I look for as a buyer is 100% positive feedback from a long time member of eBay.
Any time an items is advertised "AS IS" it means that the seller either knows nothing at all about trains and is trying to sell something that has been inherited, or there are known problems wiith it that possibly can't be fixed.
I've even seen photos taken by a seller who was so out in left field that they had the tender backwards or called the tender a 'coal car'.
In those instances, before I consider a purchase, I very carefully read the description and look at the photos, if any are provided. Then I check the seller's feedback score.
If there is no accurate descriptioin indicating exactly what might be wrong, or no photos showing obvious damage, or the seller says something indicating that he or she knows nothing about trains, I move on.
I have generally purchased used diesels and steamers at a local quarterly swap meet, where they offer a test track service to verify operability before you buy- of course, you are also able to inspect the actual engine as well. Most of the vendors are up front about what they are offering- I picked up a Proto 2K that had the early "cracked gear" issue, but was informed of it and was able to obtain replacement gears, so that $15.00 price was a bargain. On a few online e-Bay purchases of diesels, I have copied down the photo images supplied by the seller to verify that what I bought and received in the mail was the same item, but only bought from those sellers with highest ratings!
Cedarwoodron
cacole I've even seen photos taken by a seller who was so out in left field that they had the tender backwards or called the tender a 'coal car'.
Coal car.
ahh, does that bring back memories.
As a kid, my American Flyer steamer consisted of an "engine" and a "coal car"
The first time that the guy in my LHS made reference to the "tender" on an HO scale steamer, I had no idea what he was talking about.
DoughlessSomeone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker. IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief.
Sure, be cautious, but I think you underestimate the legitimate ignorance of many sellers on ebay. Many have a "toy train" to sell -- and that's about all they know. You're absolutely right about the cautions and red flags.
On the other hand, if someone slaps a 99 cent opening bid on something and says "as is" it's really hard to start calling them a thief. In fact, assuming people are thieves because their auction listing is flaky is probably a bit of a stretch.
You're still more likely to find a bargain than a rip-off. The simple fact is never pay so much you'll be disappointed in such a purchase. It's talking yourself into getting something on the cheap and then finding out there's a reason it's cheap that gets you in trouble at least as often as any nefarious doings by the seller.
I buy most of my engines on Ebay and have had a very good success rate so far. I just bought a sound/DCC equipped Bachmann Spectrum N&W J class 4-8-4 that was listed as 'like new' and I paid $96.00 plus $19.95 shipping from Canada. When I got the engine it didn't want to run but the sound worked. I worked on it for 2 days and finally got it running OK but it would lock up every 8-10 feet and I realized there was a driver quartering issue. I contacted the seller and he agreed to a full refund and return shipping. It cost me $37.95 to ship it back to Canada, which he refunded. This is a good ending to what could have been a bad story, but sometimes you get lucky. I just replaced that engine with a BLI J Class that runs and sounds great, also purchased on Ebay. Every Ebay purchase is a gamble in some way and relies on the honesty of the seller. Even if the photos and description look OK, you still don't really know what you will get. I have found that Ebay sales from real hobby shops and dealers is a pretty safe purchase.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I'll couple into the statement about the ignorance of some of the sellers on e-bay.
What very few engines I have bought on e-bay are all brass. The only reason I do that is that I am in HOn3 and really no one has ever made a mass produced HOn3 engine of any quality. Roundhouse did make an inside frame, HOn3 consolidation and a shay, both in kit form, way back when, but they were intrinsically designed as a base level frame for talented kit bashers and served well in that area. Only limited brass runs of various specific detailed HOn3 models for the different roads were ever produced.
Based on age, one just knows the typical open frame motors need to be replaced and what you receive will not run worth a toot compared to Blackstone's modern stuff that runs fabulously with full sound for about $340.00. The trouble is Blackstone only makes two models. Bottom line, if you want any engine other than D&RGW K-27 or C-19 you are pushed into brass..... Usually old brass and can figure on another 200+ bucks after you get the engine for remotoring and DCC sound. The great part is you have an odd ball, special narrow gauge RGS, C&S or DSP&P engine that will make your road special.
So, a broken coupler, a missing headlight a bent tender, a missing truck or an absolutely terrible amateur paint job is just fine if the price is right. We narrow gauge folks have to accept a lot less off e-bay for all the above reasons. You just know that you are looking at many hours and some more bucks to bring anything you get in an HOn3 loco up to 2014 standards.
Caveat Emptor doesn't hold here. You know that what ever you pay, you are signing on for a lot of work and some expense ahead if you win the auction.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
mlehman Doughless Someone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker. IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief. On the other hand, if someone slaps a 99 cent opening bid on something and says "as is" it's really hard to start calling them a thief. In fact, assuming people are thieves because their auction listing is flaky is probably a bit of a stretch.
Doughless Someone who sells a used item on the internet and doesn't put in an honest effort into giving the buyer useful information will quickly learn they will get very little interest in their item, and at a very low price. Unless they find a sucker. IMO, a seller who puts little effort into describing the condition of the item, may even supply a blurry picture where the buyer can't even determine the condition for themself, and then hides behind the phrase "as-is", is a borderline thief.
Mike,
I agree that my borderline thief comment was a bit of a stretch, because we never really know the seller's intentions. I think the starting bid price can be an indication of a seller's intentions, but its not perfect.
A 99 cent starting bid would tend to suggest that the seller is sincere and is simply willing to live with an eventual low selling price as a trade off for putting little effort into describing their item.
There are many sellers who do investigate what other comparable items go for.
IMO, a minimum bid that is set close to a market price of a locomotive in "clean" condition, tends to imply that the item itself is in clean condition. If it is not, the seller needs to disclose the deficiencies or supply enough pictures to let the bidders figure it out.
A near market value minimum bid coupled with poor pictures and a comment "as-is" condtion should set off red flags.
Trouble is, what is market value on a used item like a locomotive or piece of rolling stock?
When I sell used equipment, I go back and look at what I originally paid and then set a starting bid at around 50 percent of that purchase price. From there, the auction determines the market value.
Rich,
Good point. But I think experienced buyers and sellers tend to have an idea what price something will fetch and sellers try to get the price to that point. They can establish a high reserve, a high starting bid, or even a low bid to spark a bidding war.
If they have a high feedback count, then they are probably experienced and know what the item is and its condition and its near market value, and I would be cautious of ambigous descriptions.
I guess if the seller's offering doesn't feel right, its probably best to avoid it.
Doughless, I agree with that. I set a starting bid with the full expectation that I will at least get that amount.
My auctions often close with only one bid - - - the starting bid - - - and I am happy with that.
Me too. Usually a one bid sale.
Being a long horse trader I have a good handle on what a item is worth..
As I mention several times before on various threads some times modelers don't know the value of what they have.
As a example..
Bev-Bel made a one run of a certain road name like (say) Berlin Mills Ry Jade Green 50' boxcar.These cars can fetch up to $40.00 whereas more common tan ACF 50' Atlantic & Western boxcar will bring $8-10.00 on a good day.
BRAKIE Berlin Mills Ry Jade Green 50' boxcar
Russell
Market value is not always true on Ebay. I have lost many auctions because some people don't know the value or just want something so bad they will pay 50% or more over 'market value'. I ususally put in my highest bid and let it ride. If I win, great; if I don't thats OK because it was more than I was willing to pay. When I pay fair market value I expect to get just that, assuming the seller has been upfront and honest in his descriptiion.
farrellaa Market value is not always true on Ebay. I have lost many auctions because some people don't know the value or just want something so bad they will pay 50% or more over 'market value'. I ususally put in my highest bid and let it ride. If I win, great; if I don't thats OK because it was more than I was willing to pay. When I pay fair market value I expect to get just that, assuming the seller has been upfront and honest in his descriptiion. -Bob
Bob, I have to disagree with you.
The winning bid is always the market value.
A willing seller and a willing buyer.
That is the definition of market value.
Used train buyer beware, buyer take care
Jim
the seller didnt know, or mention, the missing headlight lens....yeah right. "as is" lets him sleep better, hoping he gets by with it without the buyer contesting it. if i sold you that engine, i would have told you like it really is....glad you got it fixed...
richhotrain farrellaa Market value is not always true on Ebay. I have lost many auctions because some people don't know the value or just want something so bad they will pay 50% or more over 'market value'. I ususally put in my highest bid and let it ride. If I win, great; if I don't thats OK because it was more than I was willing to pay. When I pay fair market value I expect to get just that, assuming the seller has been upfront and honest in his descriptiion. -Bob Bob, I have to disagree with you. The winning bid is always the market value. A willing seller and a willing buyer. That is the definition of market value. Rich
Well....to get off on a boring tangent: I think in the legal world, when it defines market value as a willing buyer and willing seller, there is an implied assumption that both parties are reasonably informed.
When buying or selling a house, most people hire a professional, an agent, who has a current database at hand of what comparable properties are going for. That's how they determine the list price. If an uninformed seller does not hire a professional, and willingly lists their "$100,000" house for $50,000, and a willing buyer snaps it up, I don't think the owners of other comparable houses would consider $50,000 to be market value.
Or a knowledgeable car collector willingly buys an original 1970 hemi 'cuda convertible out of a willing little old ladiy's barn for $5,000.
I think both parties need to be reasonably informed, not just willing, in order for a transaction to be considered market value.
I think there are some other conditions as well. Like, the parties have to be at "arms length", meaning independent motives. These nuances can sometimes can be important (not really on this forum though), because I can't avoid remitting state sales tax by selling an expensive item to my brother for $1.
Exactly what this has to do with our discussion of selling used model trains, I don't know...
And since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry