richhotrainThe winning bid is always the market value.
Sorry,Rich that's not always the case especially if you had two having a full throttle go at a bidding war and end up paying far more then the item is worth.
How can a blue box car be worth more then $10.00? Yet,I've seen BIN prices that was twice the normal going price.
How can a very common BB SW7 with no handrails have a BIN price of $65.00? You can buy a P2K switcher for that.
Simply put buyer know your prices.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
DoughlessAnd since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry
Bob,Don't be sorry for sound advice..A person better know the true market value of a use engine or car or he can be burnt by overpaying.
BRAKIE Doughless And since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry Bob,Don't be sorry for sound advice..A person better know the true market value of a use engine or car or he can be burnt by overpaying.
Doughless And since I think I was the first to use the term market value in this thread...I'm sorry
Larry, I will agree with you that Doughless should have no reason to be sorry. The notion of market value can be a valid part of this discussion.
The problem with trying to determine market value by placing a dollar amount on an item in advance of its sale is that it is totally subjective.
For example, my wife and I collected Department 56 ceramic houses for awhile. There was a book published annually with "market values" for each item. Ridiculous. Market value, says who? The author of the book? Market values for those books were based upon eBay sale prices as well as third party transactions of a few national exchanges.
Going back to model railroad items, if you look at the Completed Items section of eBay and the Sold section of eBay, you can quickly determine the breakpoint between sold and unsold items and the average price of sold items. In other words, market value.
Dougless, don't be sorry. Your initial comment added to the discussion, it did not detract from it.
Rich
Alton Junction
BRAKIE richhotrain The winning bid is always the market value. Sorry,Rich that's not always the case especially if you had two having a full throttle go at a bidding war and end up paying far more then the item is worth. How can a blue box car be worth more then $10.00? Yet,I've seen BIN prices that was twice the normal going price. How can a very common BB SW7 with no handrails have a BIN price of $65.00? You can buy a P2K switcher for that. Simply put buyer know your prices.
richhotrain The winning bid is always the market value.
Athearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10.
I will give you another example. This past summer, I was in the process of putting together a set of 8 Walthers non-plated Super Chief cars. My average purchase price on eBay was approximately $50. But I still needed the observation car which was available as a Buy It Now for $100 or more. They just sat there unsold. So, I finally emailed the seller and offered $80 which he accepted. Willing, happy and informed buyer and seller. Market value of the observation car? $80. That is about what that car sells for ever since. It became a benchmark for buyers.
Hi,
I've watched this thread with interest and decided to throw in my 10 cents..........
- I collect post war (WWII) Lionel trains, stamps and coins. Each of those groupings have annual catalogs from various sources touting current market value. The experts in all these hobby venues will tell you the same thing, that those published values are - at best - what a brick & mortar retailer will sell the item for. There may be exceptions, but they are very few and very far between - often the result of a couple hard headed bidders in heated competition.
- I've bought and sold stuff (mostly trains) on Ebay for 13 years. As others here have said, "market value" comes down to what a willing buyer and willing seller will agree to. Its as simple as that.
- The catch in all this is that an item may sell for minimum value on one day, and max value another day. Buying and Selling in an auction venue is really just a crapshoot. In example, last year I had 12 offerings of Athearn cars go unsold the weeks before Christmas. After Christmas, I relisted at the same prices and 10 quickly got bids, and three of the offerings had some minor bidding competition.
- Once again, if you are going to buy off Ebay (or any venue), check feedback, seller info, read the fine print, assume NOTHING, and ask questions.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
The sellers feeback rating is critical, especially on used items. For me, it always has to be 100%.
The sellers feedback on new items is important but for big time sellers, the rating is almost always less than 100% because a few buyers ar always going to be sour grapes. Item not as described, delivery too slow, never received the item, seller is a moron, etc. But if the feedback is lower than 99%, forget it.
richhotrainThe sellers feedback rating is critical, especially on used items. For me, it always has to be 100%.
If the seller has thousands of sales and 99% feed back I will research the negative for the reasons.I found 99% of the time it was the buyer expecting more then he was getting or was unhappy with the shipping time or communication.
I will repeat myself..Know your prices..There are sellers that jack up their prices above MSRP or think they have something rare and hard to find when in all truth its very common.
Also $65.00 BB engines can be had from other dealers cheaper and can be found at train shows.
Again know your going used prices so you won't get burnt.
Used locos are always a good deal if you buy one. For those common items 1,000+ copies extant or more, condition is going to be your worry. Sure! It is common, not rare, and with that the price is usually low. You need to get hot under the collar if you pay the price and get damaged or ill-described items. However, "Sold as is" means you have no leg to stand on....The seller was clear and adamant. I will not bid on an item with this well explained caveat.
However, rarer items and items that are long discontinued such that most are gone, destroyed or damaged can make what was a moderately common item, rare. These can have an entirely different bidding crowd such that they will receive zero bids as no one wants or needs the item with a high opening bid or some one person has wanted one of this item for years and just tuned in to the auction and has a lot of cash. He will own this item!!! It, effectively, at this moment, has no real market value as he will bid it to the roof against all comers. It had no value because there is not a real market for it, normally. A brass GP-9 may have a hundred interested folks huddled up to bid and many of these may have been sold in the last two years. This has a common market value. There can still be some whack job in the mix who has more money than brains or a lust that he must see it in his hands and no other. You will never know until the close.
In closing, the rarer items are the ones where you will see no bids at all, one winning bid at the starting price or some insane sum spent by a "must have" winner.
If you are bidding on normal, common stuff and expect a nice item to arrive if you win, be very careful and read the condition carefully and watch out for "sold as is".
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I have also bought the majority of my model railroad items on e-bay. When I purchaed items on e-bay if they were not "new" I checked the prices being paid for the item as used and will only pay a sibstansially reduced price for that item.
It the items were new I made sure I did not pay any more than what I could have bought the items for including shipping at some of the large model train discount stores.
I only had one instance of an item not being what it was represented as, it was an Intermountain EMD F unit in an A B setup, it had been out of production for some years and was considered hard to find. It was advertised as "hardley used"
It was true that there was only minor wheel wear but the pc board for the lights and been taken out and was missing. I lodged a complaint with E-Bay and the vendor responded that the light was a minor item and could be bought for less than a $1.00. E-Bay seemed to have not undertood that the PC Bpard that was missing was for both headlights, a mars light and the number boards and sided with the vendor and I did not get any type of reduction.
However, I was more than surprised to find out the when I contacted Intermountain to inquire ahout a replacement PC board they sent me one at no charge. That was the first Intermountain unit that I bought, but not the last, I have about two dozen AB EMD F unit sets now, most with sound.
So, to summarize, I do not find any pitfalls when buying used engines, provided one practices a due dilegence approach before bidding on any items.
richhotrainAthearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10.
Rich,Join me in going to my favorite train shows like Berea,Wooster(Dalton) Bucyrus and Marion and look at all the $3-5.00 BB and MDC cars..How about older BB kits 3/10.00? How about common Bev-Bel/Athearn for 3/$10.00?
Rich,Ya gotta know your prices and what may or may not be readily available.
With that said.
I have bought some hard to find road names for as high as $12.99 BIN-I just grit my teeth and paid the price since these road names isn't readily available at the shows I mention and I knew the price was above the going price when and if you find them at a show and if you will recall that old saying a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.That was my thought when I decided to buy those cars.
Another thing is a lot of the Bev-Bel/Athearn and MDC road names has been release by Athearn as RTR..So,I keep that in mind too because some of those cars can be had for $16-18.00 BIN.
Then there's the Atlas Trainman cars that can be had for around $12-16.00 with the same road names.
See what I mean when I say you gotta know your prices?
richhotrain Athearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10.
There are quite a few BB cars on eBay right now with a "Buy it Now" less than $10. And a lot less than their original MSRP. Blue Box are junk. Buy a real kit.
BRAKIE richhotrain Athearn BB cars used to cost $10 when they were widely available new. But, now that they are not readily available, they easily sell used for more than $10. Rich,Join me in going to my favorite train shows like Berea,Wooster(Dalton) Bucyrus and Marion and look at all the $3-5.00 BB and MDC cars..How about older BB kits 3/10.00? How about common Bev-Bel/Athearn for 3/$10.00? Rich,Ya gotta know your prices and what may or may not be readily available. With that said. I have bought some hard to find road names for as high as $12.99 BIN-I just grit my teeth and paid the price since these road names isn't readily available at the shows I mention and I knew the price was above the going price when and if you find them at a show and if you will recall that old saying a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.That was my thought when I decided to buy those cars. Another thing is a lot of the Bev-Bel/Athearn and MDC road names has been release by Athearn as RTR..So,I keep that in mind too because some of those cars can be had for $16-18.00 BIN. Then there's the Atlas Trainman cars that can be had for around $12-16.00 with the same road names. See what I mean when I say you gotta know your prices?
Larry, I just sold 22 Athearn BB passenger cars on eBay with an average sales price of $15.50 per car.
That is my quantification of market value.
richhotrainLarry, I just sold 22 Athearn BB passenger cars on eBay with an average sales price of $15.50 per car. That is my quantification of market value. Rich
That seems to be the going prices for BB passenger cars at the shows I mention-if you can find them...The freight cars is plentiful.
Ya did good.
For those of you that saw my story about the Alaskan GP-40 the other day, the seller apologized and granted me a partial refund which I used to buy a set of decals to replace the missing A in Alaska with. I also went ahead and replaced the broken front coupler and glued the horns back on the roof. Otherwise the engine runs great.
Tracklayer
I gambled one time buying an Athearn GP35, so I kept the risk low, bidding cheap. The description was simply "locomotive 6935". The single picture was fuzzy, but it had what looked like grey wheels...maybe. It turned out to be a runner, and after cleanup, a good one! Cheapest loco I ever won. Same seller was selling an F-7, same style of description, but it was clearly a dummy, super common among F-7s.(Black wheels). Know what you're looking at, and be prepared to take a hit if it's not what you think it is, especially if the seller knows nothing about it. Dan
I believe there is a couple of additional points that might be considered........
- Train shows are just not a viable option for a whole lot of MRs. So they don't have access to those low priced deals that are mentioned. Ebay and other online venues are their MR marketplace, and they will pay what they will pay to get what they want.
- As a buyer, I literally went years of going to train shows looking for particular MR items. One I recall was a green light tower (post war Lionel) and the other was the Walthers ATSF HO multi car wrecking train kit. They were not to be had.......... But, when I got turned on to Ebay (1999), as I recall it was less than two months before I had each in hand. Did I overpay? Perhaps. Do I care? Not a bit - for I got what I wanted.
mobilman44Ebay and other online venues are their MR marketplace, and they will pay what they will pay to get what they want.
Make no mistake e-Bay and three on line stores are my hobby shops.
I will pay a higher price for some items but,that doesn't mean I will pay $29.00 for a Bev-Bel/Athearn car..
I'll just wait till it shows up again on e-Bay at a more reasonable price of (say) $12.99.
I bought a gp7 pennsy a few years ago, seller said it kept shorting out when tested. I bought it for 15.00 as is with free shipping, when it arrived I checked out a very nice brass loco that needed a little work, had many offers for it but its still in the display case and every once in a while I take it out and run it. not bad for a sold as is.Jim.
BRAKIERich,Join me in going to my favorite train shows like Berea,Wooster(Dalton) Bucyrus and Marion and look at all the $3-5.00 BB and MDC cars..How about older BB kits 3/10.00? How about common Bev-Bel/Athearn for 3/$10.00? Rich,Ya gotta know your prices and what may or may not be readily available.
Larry,
You gotta remember Rich is in the Chicago metropolitan area. Prices in the big city tend to be higher for a lot of reasons. certainly at train shows, there are lots more customers for the used equipment dealers.
Regional location can also make a big difference in prices for certain roadnames. A local favorite may go for premiuim prices, while items popular elsewhere languish.
Which brings up the point again that it's the willing seller and willing buyer getting together under the circumstances of the moment that makes a deal. "Blue" books, completed auction listings or even what someone just paid in another state fro the same item are just a start on determining value, not the final word.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
We have strayed far from the original issue which was buying used model railroading stuff on eBay determining the market value of used items when buying and selling.
Mike,I understand that and shoot its hard to give away any electric engine like a AEM-7 in this area.
SCL and Seaboard System is a hard find in this area which means for me its e-Bay or face a long hunt at train shows..Even C&O is a hard hunt.
I have made several offers on e-Bay and have accepted some counter offers but,still a $30.00 Bev-Bel-Athearn or even a regular BB kit for $30.00 is mite extreme in the pricing.Exception being the extremely rare one production run cars that goes for higher prices.Oddly with these cars its the (if you will) "victory of a sucessful hunt" more then the price.
BRAKIEI have made several offers on e-Bay and have accepted some counter offers but,still a $30.00 Bev-Bel-Athearn or even a regular BB kit for $30.00 is mite extreme in the pricing.Exception being the extremely rare one production run cars that goes for higher prices.Oddly with these cars its the (if you will) "victory of a sucessful hunt" more then the price.
Yes, one has to be willing to walk away from a deal that's more than what one wants to pay.
Because as soon as you do that, there's the tendency to start questioning one's decision -- which on the forums often translates into "I got ripped off..." when the problem really is you agreed to pay too much. There's no one to blame but yourself when that happens.
At the risk of getting this entire thread locked down right now, if not deleted, I have been reliably informed by those who know that this phenomenon is also common to online dating, with the possible exception that I suspect few people who appear in online dating sites use the phrase "As Is." A different vocabulary of code words likely exists.
I say no more on that analogy.
I would only observe that it is also astounding what prices can be asked for broken and defective trains at actual real live swap meets, where you can see the damage and the problems right before your eyes. So it is not like Ebay or simialar on line venues are themselves the cause of sellers over valuing their goods. I think that just comes with being a seller of used stuff.
Dave Nelson
richhotrain We have strayed far from the original issue which was buying used model railroading stuff on eBay determining the market value of used items when buying and selling. Rich
Rich,Buying use and knowning your prices goes hand in hand..
Mike's and Dave's replies covers that quite nicely.
Larry, perhaps I am missing your point. In fact, I'm sure that I am.
Are you suggesting that if someone buys an Athearn BB passenger car on eBay for more than $10 that the person is overpaying for that car?
richhotrainAre you suggesting that if someone buys an Athearn BB passenger car on eBay for more than $10 that the person is overpaying for that car? Rich
Not likely..Let's say that passenger car was $29.95 BIN..That's overpaying.
The going rate for used BB passenger cars seems to be between $12-18.00 depending on condition whereas the going rate for freight cars at shows is around $5.00 used with KDs.
However..
In the freight car game one must becareful because there are so many common cars that is available in the old BB and MDC kits as well as RTR from Athearn,Atlas and of course Accurail kits.
Now that BB or MDC $14.99 C&NW boxcar doesn't seem to be quite the deal since RTR C&NW boxcars from Athearn and Atlas cost about five bucks more.In fact I seen a Trainman RTR BN boxcar that was cheaper then what a seller was asking for a older BB kit.
Does this help in clearing things up?
Absolutely ask questions of the seller, and if they can't answer them, move on. I was looking at a post war Lionel diesel, which was always sold as an AA unit (powered and dummy) but in this case was only one unit. I asked the seller if it was powered or not, seller had no idea. I explained how to find out (take the shell off, look at the bottom and look for motor, etc), but the seller basically said "I am selling it. If I'm wrong, I'll fix it with the buyer". Not someone I want to buy from. Always ask and reask if necessary.