I know the rationale, Andre. However, the appearance of cylinders on this one engine, unique in all steam locomotives, going around a curve of ANY description, flung widely to one side or the other, with the flying pumps waaahaaayhaaay out on the other side, just doesn't cut it for me. BLI's engineering will let this loco go around 26" curves, or whatever it says, I forget, using a combination of lateral motion in the axles and I think two blind driver sets. That I could live with, and that BLI's won't have the Gresley gear 'active' (but they claim it will at least be in scale. The MTH version is too large by a chunk).
-Crandell
The final straw for me, aside from the latest QA disaster with their Big Boy just released, was the articulated frame on their Union Pacific 4-12-2.
That's the only way to get one of those things to go around a 22" curve. Since it appears the current demand is for behemoth engines that are supposed to go around curves that would derail a Tyco Shifter, the options are articulation or nothing.
As for articulated frames, Marklin did it years ago (think 50's) with their class 44 2-10-0 in order to get it around 14" curves. Apparently, they're still doing it with their latest releases. http://www.ajckids.com/products/Marklin/37895 Incidentally, a 44 is a small engine compared to a UP 9000.
The SP originally bought its 4-10-2 for use in the Sierra. It didn't take too long to discover that the long wheelbase on the engine was causing both excessive flange and rail wear and the 5000's were re-assigned to divisions with easier curves. The upshot was a rebuilding of the MC class 2-8-8-2's to simple AC's and the ordering of the larger 4-8-8-2's. The SP 4-10-2's had a considerably shorter wheelbase than a UP 9000.
Long rigid wheelbases and sharp model curves aren't compatible without some serious compromises. If the protptype had curve issues with long rigid wheelbases, a model is going to have those issues in spades.
The rigid wheelbase of a UP 9000 is 30' 8". That ain't goinna go around sharp curves. By contrast, the rigid wheelbase of a UP Challenger is a shade over 12 feet. Guess which one saw regular use in Cajon Pass and which one only saw Cajon Pass on its way to be displayed at the LA County Fairgrounds.
Andre
pirate How can they be so successful if everyone hates them?
How can they be so successful if everyone hates them?
I'm not sure they are, at least as far as HO is concerned; how many MTH engines do you see in clubs or at shows? MTH has a large chunk of the O-gauge business (where their DCS system makes some modicum of sense, I'm told) and likely have deep enough pockets to lose money for a few years while trying to carve out market share in HO.
Anyway, I've got four MTH Protosound 3.0 engines and every single one has had problems, some minor and some critical. MTH hasn't answered emails and leaves me hanging on the phone for hours; I've given up trying to fix these lemons and moved on to Proto 2000 and Bachmann Spectrum. No plans to go back, either.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
My dislike Is so great he could include a gold brick for free with his trains and I would still not buy them.
Not a smart strategy. The current price of gold is around $1250/oz. If Mike's dumb enough to include a brick of gold with each model, the best way to indicate your contempt would be to buy MTH's entire output every year until Mike went bankrupt from supplying you with gold at an incredible discount to market price.
You could then give away the models and still laugh all the way to the bank. A standard gold bar http://tinyurl.com/nsk8loo is worth almost $550K at current prices.
Mike, if you're out there listening, I'm all into buying all the output of MTH for as long as you are sufficiently liquid to stay in business provided you include a standard gold bar with every model.
Note to DeLuxe - if the above happens, I'll supply all the GS-4's you can take. Gratis.
Well, I have one MTH HO loco, an AB set of the FA's. Where do I start? I had no problem programming them to the road number. On perfectly clean track the run ok, not awesome, but equivalent to other locos I have like Proto 2000. On the slightest bit of dirt though,t he sound stops, and you can NOT turn it back on without coming to a stop, the F3 to start up ONLY works when stopped. On the club layout this is a HUGE pain, either the A or B will shut off, and of course if I stop the pair and hit F3, the one that's runnign will silence, and the other one start up., there's no CV change that can fix this. Maybe it can be adjusted with DCS.
The operating couplers are pretty much useless. They uncouple just fine, but to couple up you have to slam into the cars like a toy train set. The ones between the A and B were constantly coming apart WITHOUT pressing any function key, so I took them off and replaced them with the included fixed couplers.
The sound cutout is the big thing. My other sound locos don;t do this, and on the rare occasion they do stall, when the power comes back, the sounds restart, without resorting to the start up sequence. If the MTH would do this, or could be set to not require the F3 restart when power was lost, they'd be 100% better. They have added DCC features with each new revision, but still leave most of the good stuff as DCS only, because they consider their proprietary DCS system to be better than anything. If it's so good, why not sell the decoders so you could install them in other locos? I would never want to be limited to running JUST MTH locos.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
In my case - I have not seen any offerings that fit my era/prototype, in a price range I find acceptable. I use DCC and have no desire to switch to DCS, nor do I wish to swap decoders, and I object to paying more for a decoder I do not intend to use. I also object to the practice of sending in locos for any sort of repair work, I much prefer to simply buy needed parts and do it myself. Given some of the business practices I have seen outlined in this thread, it almost surprises me they manage to stay in business.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
You have a point, GS, although on what can any of us base our assumptions and form conclusions except with what comes to our senses? I have found that some on-line reviews are actually quite helpful, and I use those supplied by users at amazon.com, for example. We get good and bad reviews there for electronics. Those posting bad ones are trying to help. So are those who proclaim full satisfaction.
I should remind some who have never owned an MTH product, for every 25 complaints you read on a forum there is most likely triple that with no complaints. To base ones opinions on what he reads on forums, and has no experience with, is selling ones self short. This goes for everything, not just the topic of this thread.
MHO
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I know a fellow who brings them to our club and he has nothing but trouble with them. I see this and then the price. Therefore I have decided to stay away from them and not recommend them to anyone.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
It has been covered pretty well to this point. I can only add my two bits:
Entered the game with a clear aim of displacing BLI, with whom they had an early gripe. I am loyal to BLI, although it waivered during the hard years between 2009-2011 when their products weren't very good judging from consumer complaints posted across the hobby forums. The company even tubed their forum because it was a repository for beefs and griping....quite understandably on both sides of the forum, owners and users.
Didn't market or introduce, tease, lure, the DCS system....began beating their own snare drum loudly when the rest of us were in tune and holding to the same beat, at least in DCC. When we noticed, and noticed that they didn't care to offer items most of us could actually use without buying a whole 'nuther pseudo-DCC system, we realized this was as much punitive and venegeful as anything. In your face. Most/many of us didn't seem to appreciate the sentiment, and we have stayed away.
Over the time DCC has made its way into the limelight, most of us who use DCC have appreciated that the decoder and system manufacturers have fallen into step and kept to conventions. It makes the hobby less expensive and more fun. MTH had no interest in joining as a competitor out to win converts, judging by how things fell out. Oh, he wanted converts, but didn't have any psychology working for him. Had he introduced the hobby to his 'high def' version of the DCC world after entering with good products that we could use and learn were decent and worth buying, many of us might have paid closer attention. Instead, the snare drum drove most of us to put our hands over our ears.
The final straw for me, aside from the latest QA disaster with their Big Boy just released, was the articulated frame on their Union Pacific 4-12-2. He might as well have made a rigid framed Big Boy. The effect was to render the thing a huge foobie for me.
I suspect that a lot of it stems from the lawsuits with Lionel.
Second, most of their locomotives come with proprietary DCS and sound which adds $150+ to the price. (Note Lionel also has a proprietary system). A lot of folks saw this as MTH attempting to force their system on the hobby at least in HO. Some of the MTH deocders will work with DCC now, but problems are still reported and some features aren't available to DCC. (Of course some DC users complain about locomotives coming with DCC.)
Prices for MTH tend to be on the high side, coupled with paying for a decoder sound system you may not want, makes some people unhappy.
But I think a lot of this has died down, there's plenty of other manufacturer's in HO to buy from.
Personally, I'm a little unhappy that they bought S Helper's line of S scale, because they raised prices and are now using DCS in the locomotives instead of offering DCC as an option. OTOH the problems S Helper was having in China probably made this the only solution to keep the line alive.
In the end, there are enough options that you can use what you like from MTH and go elsewhere for other things. I have been doing that for years.
Enjoy
Paul
When one has: failed 'co-operation' equipment with existing systems, failed customer service, failed on hands experience, failed production model, failed equipment, failed repairs, failed replacement parts, and more, one tends NOT to want to buy/deal with such a company!
One also tends to report to others here on this site and elsewhere their experiences!
I did not like MTHs Idea of a 'propietary" "lone wolf" DCS system that did not play well with others to start with. Then there was their prices: they seemed to price like they were still in O. Then I read ad nauseum enough complaints {like those metioned above} here and elsewhere about their failed products/lack of services/lack of parts.
I then decided I would NEVER own a MTH Ho scale product. And not sure I'd pick any of their O guage either.
A business model should be simple: manufacture to the accepted standards and practices of the business one wishes to be in. Provide a Quality product. Provide fail safe and recalls/repairs for failures of manufactur or use. Provide Excellent customer service should there be a failure {and there will be-especially even when it is the customer's fault}.
THAT plan will keep any business afloat with repeat customers for many years to come. Some businesses in this world do not get that. AS I see from the registered complaints, MTH isn't one of those.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Milepost 266.2Why would they hate them because they're successful? I think the DCS thing along with treating the HO market like the 3 rail market (acquarium car? Really?) are the reasons they face the ire of the HO crowd.
I think everyone has covered the basic reasoning, My gripe with Mike extends to his reluctance to provide repair/replacement parts for my O31 F40, which I bought for under the tree use. Second season of limited 2 week use, and the engine would no longer reverse. It was stuck running backward. Third season, it wouldn't run at all. The only way I could get it repaired was to send it to them at my expense. They would let me know what it would cost. "No we don't send replacement parts - we wouldn't want our competitors to learn our secrets". The F40 was replaced with a Williams P42. No more Mike stuff for me.
BTW, received an HO M&Ms car for Christmas last year. Love it. It comes out for Christmas, and sits on a siding.
For serious modeling, though, they are not for me. Too expensive, too clunky looking.
Joe
Why would they hate them because they're successful?
I think the DCS thing along with treating the HO market like the 3 rail market (aquariam car? Rerally?) are the reasons they face the ire of the HO crowd.
Liike I said, take your pick. As for the successful part, they're hated because they're successful DESPITE doing things people think are just plain wrong (e.g. use a GS-4 chassis for a GS-6, create an aquarium car in HO, insist on supplying HO equipment with their proprietary control system). People who do stuff like that are supposed to fail but MTH hasn't (for a 19th Century version of this phenomon read: http://www.washburn.edu/sobu/broach/badboy.html )
Corresponding to the lack of bad boy failure is the corollary about the failure of the good boy to succeed: http://www.washburn.edu/sobu/broach/badboy.html
Besides, why hate them for making an aquarium car in HO? It's not like they're holding a gun to anyone's head to buy one.
I've had my eye on their HO line for a few years and I just don't see anything new that hasn't already been made. Besides the lawsuits and mudslinging that went on turning me off or making me hesitate before I buy their products I find myself looking with a magnifying glass and I'm just not impressed. If they ever make something new in DC like a modern passenger engine and cars that no one has previously offered in an adequate form I might buy it.
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
Wow, where do you start?
I've heard the horror stories about their service, so I've prohibited myself from owning any MTH stuff. There have been plenty of threads both here and elsewhere about that..
I've seen the "fantasy" paint schemes. Complete made up paint jobs or an accurate scheme on the wrong model. Almost laughable stuff.
Here's an example of both. See the MTH Maryland Midland caboose? the real MMID has 1 caboose. Its a bay window caboose # 15, and its red! MTH also sells a GP20 in this paint scheme. Midland has never owned a GP20. I'd expect this kinda stuff on a "bottom of the line" set from "Toys R Us" but not from anything that is in MTH's price range. (Except for maybe the Franklin Mint!)
For me, the biggest problem is Mike himself. He wants to be a player in the HO market. It doesn't take a genius to realize compatibility is key, not a whole nother control system! DCS was not a wise idea. Then he wants to sue the pants off of everyone else who builds DCC sound decoders, causing the NMRA to get involved and spend money needlessly defending the "open" archetecture. I really believe his entire mindset was that if MTH is going to be in the HO market, then they must crush the competition. Those actions in the long run hurt everybody, including MTH. Why can't they learn that you can catch more flies with sugar, than you can with vinegar??
Thats my 2 cents, your mileage may vary, batteries not included.
Karl
NCE über alles!
andrechapelon Because Mike Wolf has never acted like Casper Milquetoast. Because MTH started out in the 3 rail O gauge business which most people regard as toy trains. Because MTH has been quite successful as a business. Because MTH had the incredible audacity to use a GS-4 chassis to create a GS-6 pretty much by the expedient of changing out the smokebox front and leaving off the skirting. Had they created a GS-3, they'd have had to change the cab and tender as well as the smokebox front. Because MTH has a proprietary control system (DCS). Because they don't like MTH prices. Because MTH may not be quite as anal about detail as everyone thinks is appropriate. Because it's there. All of the above. Take your pick. I don't really have any feelings about MTH one way or the other. They just don't make anything I want. Now if they'd come out with an SP TW-3 http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2940.JPG , I would sing MTH's praises to the heavens. Andre
Because Mike Wolf has never acted like Casper Milquetoast.
Because MTH started out in the 3 rail O gauge business which most people regard as toy trains.
Because MTH has been quite successful as a business.
Because MTH had the incredible audacity to use a GS-4 chassis to create a GS-6 pretty much by the expedient of changing out the smokebox front and leaving off the skirting. Had they created a GS-3, they'd have had to change the cab and tender as well as the smokebox front.
Because MTH has a proprietary control system (DCS).
Because they don't like MTH prices.
Because MTH may not be quite as anal about detail as everyone thinks is appropriate.
Because it's there.
All of the above.
Take your pick.
I don't really have any feelings about MTH one way or the other. They just don't make anything I want. Now if they'd come out with an SP TW-3 http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2940.JPG , I would sing MTH's praises to the heavens.
I think the DCS thing along with treating the HO market like the 3 rail market (acquarium car? Really?) are the reasons they face the ire of the HO crowd.
They have become a much better company than they used to be, but the root of the discontent with them and their products is their proprietary DCS control system.
DCS is a digital control system, an alternative to the very popular DCC. Unlike DCC, though, it is not an "open" system that will work with parts from multiple manufacturers. If you have a DCC system, you can run a few of their DCS engines with special "dual-mode" decoders, but not very many. Moreover, if you have a DCS system, you can't run any DCC-equipped engines.
I can buy any engine and install a DCC decoder in it, and run it on my DCC system. But, if I had a DCS system, I can't buy a decoder. MTH does not sell them. So, I am limited to MTH engines.
I've always wondered about the MTH marketing strategy. They make some very nice engines, and some completely uniquie ones, too, but their control system turns off most of us in the HO market. It's been a long time since "trashing" MTH was routine, but I'd have to say there are a lot of better options.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Past actions of the company I would guess, some lawsuits here and there, plus they initially decided to go their own route with a version of DCC, personally I have no opinion about how Mike wishes to run his business, it's his to run.
I do know I have experienced some of their products, and am still very impressed with them. If he made a loco I could use I would have no issues in purchasing an mTH product.
Just curious.