WALTHERS BUDD CARS - Evaluation

[Anonymous]

I have the Budds in UP name & the Kato business car. Side by side, the colors are close but the gray roof
tops are different shades.
The Budd light bar is far superior to that of the chintzy Kato car , but the Kato car has a superior roll to that of Budd.

[jimrice4449]

I have a hump yard which makes rolling quality imperative. I use dry graphite (like KD) in a squeeze bottle made by A West (I think they're in the Walthers catalog.) Works like a champ and doesn't drible on the track. Shoot it into each bearing surface and blow off excess before putting it on the track.
For some reason all Athearn equipment provides coupler hight that's too low. On the frt cars it's a simple matter to shave off the truck boss on the bolster and replace it with one made from the upper half of the KD cplr box. Brings it right up to the correct hight.
A more serious problem I have with the Walthers psgr cars is that they're too high by 6 scale inches. This sounds like nit-picking but if your mixing makes it's a problem. For example, I made up a Panama Limited with brass cars for the prototype specific cars...
Soho for the baggage/dorm and observation and Railway Classics (ouch!!!) for the diner and lounge. There's a quite noticable hight difference. After trying to lower one Walthers car I went the easy route and raised the brass cars to match the (incorrect) Walthers cars

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

TAMPA TONY:

As you surmised,there are 2 tiny screws holding those Walthers Budd trucks together. After spending an evenig on my hands and knees looking for one of those @!#* screws, I said "there has to be a better way". After doing 21 cars, you may want to try the following:

Loosen ONE OF THE SCREWS to where it won't fall out. Keeping it in place.
then loosen the other screw - just enough - to allow spreading the trucks apart for removing each wheel.* I lubricate the axle ends befoe assembling them. This helps keep the sides of the trucks bound together while working on them. Holding two sides together while inserting screws is not my idea of how to spend an evening.
EDIT *(One at a time - I reverse this proceedure for the other wheel )

RE:Lubricant's.

Oils thin enough to pass electricity are also thin enough to run out of journals. Grease -which is solidified oil- sticks better. Now in the case of WALTHERS Budd cars, the journals and wheels are conductive metal for lighting (with the half-axles separated by plastic) so a lubricant that truly passes electricity such as Graphite, works.

CONVERSELy:
Graphite, or any CODUCTING LUBRICANT, can short out the insulation on conventional HO wheels and cause short cicuits. SO, GRAPHITE is recommended only for the Budd cars, and GREASE for conventional cars.

Hello Don,

That's a great tip. THANKS! I hope that the Walther's car owners on this forum read it.

You stirred some memories up as over the years I've been on my hands and knees on a carpeted floor looking for: screws, clips, Details West parts, KD couplers, handrail stanchions, etc,........while trying not to utter colorful metaphors! [:0][:p]

I plan on using the "Molybdenum" since it is a lubricant that contains crushed graphite.

BTW: In case you didn't see my thread, a rep from MILLER ENGINEERING told me in an e-mail that they will produce a passenger car lighting kit that's similar to the Walthers, however, the beauty of it is that it's going to feature blue-white L.E.Ds which will very much resemble Floursecent Lighting. It's still in the design stages. I'm excited about it as most prototype streamlined passenger cars used flourescent lighting while incadescent lights were in the narrow passageways and used as reading and supplemental lighting.

Last summer the good guys at my LHS poked fun at me as being too "nit picky" when I asked how floursecent lighting could be imitated in HO passenger cars. My problem was that I had ridden the prototypes too many times so those lights really stood out in my memory. (The Walthers lighting kit is incandescent).

I only plan to light a few cars, mainly diners, observations, and a couple of coaches.

Roger that! [:)][:D][8D][;)][8)]

[CP5415]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

Soon I'll have enough cars for a decent length passenger train. If the Walthers cars are as good as my Kato Business car (best car for the money, IMO), I'll be very happy!

Jonathon,

The Walthers cars are as good as the Kato car. I have 9 Walthers Budd cars & Kato's CPR Business car. Unless you look close up, you can't tell the difference between the two manufacturers.
Just my 2 cents

Gordon

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

4884BigBoy,

E-mail Walthers and tell them that you want to start receiving the WALTHERS FLYER in the mail. The passenger cars are often on sale in there for around $25 instead of the usual $34+ dollars that they retail for. (though the Super Chief cars are higher in price)

Take the flyer to a participating hobby shop, show the manager and he should sell you the car(s) that are in the flyer at the discounted price.

For $25 these cars are a bargain!

Antonio, I do already recieve the Walthers Flyer in the mail. But, I haven't gotten one in a few months. I think I'll have to send them a shout.

[Don Gibson]

TAMPA TONY:

As you surmised,there are 2 tiny screws holding those Walthers Budd trucks together. After spending an evenig on my hands and knees looking for one of those @!#* screws, I said "there has to be a better way". After doing 21 cars, you may want to try the following:

Loosen ONE OF THE SCREWS to where it won't fall out. Keeping it in place.
then loosen the other screw - just enough - to allow spreading the trucks apart for removing each wheel.* I lubricate the axle ends befoe assembling them. This helps keep the sides of the trucks bound together while working on them. Holding two sides together while inserting screws is not my idea of how to spend an evening.
EDIT *(One at a time - I reverse this proceedure for the other wheel )

RE:Lubricant's.


Oils thin enough to pass electricity are also thin enough to run out of journals. Grease -which is solidified oil- sticks better. Now in the case of WALTHERS Budd cars, the journals and wheels are conductive metal for lighting (with the half-axles separated by plastic) so a lubricant that truly passes electricity such as Graphite, works.

CONVERSELy:
Graphite, or any CODUCTING LUBRICANT, can short out the insulation on conventional HO wheels and cause short cicuits. SO, GRAPHITE is recommended only for the Budd cars, and GREASE for conventional cars.

[AntonioFP45]

4884BigBoy,

E-mail Walthers and tell them that you want to start receiving the WALTHERS FLYER in the mail. The passenger cars are often on sale in there for around $25 instead of the usual $34+ dollars that they retail for. (though the Super Chief cars are higher in price)

Take the flyer to a participating hobby shop, show the manager and he should sell you the car(s) that are in the flyer at the discounted price.

For $25 these cars are a bargain!

[Anonymous]

I've been looking into Walthers Budd cars, and judging by what you guys say, I think I'll be getting some. They may be a little expensive, but they're bound to be better than my Spectrum passenger cars (good running cars but those funny coupler boxes are just a pain in the @$$).

Soon I'll have enough cars for a decent length passenger train. If the Walthers cars are as good as my Kato Business car (best car for the money, IMO), I'll be very happy!

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

Sorry Antonio, yes remove the truck. There are four tiny screws. Losen/remove and then spread the frames. Be careful when re-assembling. Make sure the truck is on a track and screw down evenly.

O.K! I really appreciate that. Thanks!

Basically I've been spoiled all these year on the mainteance free Rivorossi, ConCor, and Athearn passenger trucks. It was a simple matter of gently spreading the truck frame and nudging out the axle with a fingernail.

But of course, the higher the quality of a mechanism, the greater the maintenance that is required. But it's worth it, IMHO. This goes to show that Walther's really invested money and effort on these cars. I can't complain. These cars are really beautiful. I hope to have a fleet of SCL cars that would enable me to run a realistic versions of the Champion and Silver Star.

[:)][:D][;)][8)]

Cheers!

[Anonymous]

Sorry Antonio, yes remove the truck. There are four tiny screws. Losen/remove and then spread the frames. Be careful when re-assembling. Make sure the truck is on a track and screw down evenly.

[AntonioFP45]

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

On the cars I have (3 C&NW Bilevels and a C&NW PS sleeper) I found the best way to lube the bearings was to remove the trucks, then undo the screws holding one sideframe to the centre piece. This allows the wheelsets to drop out with no struggling needed. I then put a small dab of grease on each axle pinpoint before re-assembling the truck and refitting it to the car - no squeaking and lower rolling resistance, also the lighting seems a bit more stable! Hope this is of some help!

[AntonioFP45]

Are you saying remove the truck first and then try to remove the axles?

[Anonymous]

Antonio, my budd trucks are a two piece metal unit held together by two screws.

I too lube my upgraded IM sets in the stock truck with conducta lube. with a needle point applicator

[AntonioFP45]

GUYS!

Is it just me getting old, or do some of you have a very hard time removing the wheels/axles off of the Walther's passenger car trucks! I just had a wrestling match with the ACL coach that I just won off of Ebay and wow, what a bear!

"O.K folks and here are the game's scores: "

ACL Car: 100 [:D][8D] Antonio FP45: 0 [B)][:p][:0][:p]


I have a few that are really squealing and, one way or the other, am going to give them a dab of lubricant!

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

Someone above asked about where to get graphite or Moly. You might want to try either Hobby Lobby or Michaels. Go to where they have the pinecar stuff. Powdered graphite can be found there (don't get the teflon stuff - I don't think it conducts electricity). I believe the graphite is actually a graphite/molly mix. Stuff is pretty inexpensive.

Thanks for the tip Dkelly. One thing though: It's good to stay away from the graphite powder and get the Moly grease instead as it does conduct electricity. A good friend of mine used powdered graphite on his axles one time.........and had a hard time getting it off of his track.

[Anonymous]

Someone above asked about where to get graphite or Moly. You might want to try either Hobby Lobby or Michaels. Go to where they have the pinecar stuff. Powdered graphite can be found there (don't get the teflon stuff - I don't think it conducts electricity). I believe the graphite is actually a graphite/molly mix. Stuff is pretty inexpensive.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45



Again Don, thanks!

Donald. Your friends/fellow modelers are waiting.

[AntonioFP45]

Recently bought the 36" wheels from Branchline. Am installing them on my HO streamlined Rivorossi cars. Do look forward to matching them up to my Walther's cars.

Again Don, thanks!

[Anonymous]

Mine were fine, straight from the box to the rails, they roll great![:D]

[ort007]

Ditto on the "thanks". I really appreciate the great advice. I know it comes from hard earned experience.

Ort007

[rexhea]

Don,
I feel certain that all of us would like to thank you for such thorough research and evaluation. It is this kind of information sharing that will insure a higher quality in our model railroading and keep us from making the frustrating OOPS!

The Best, REX [:)]

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ort007

Don,
I've been following this thread and your Sept 19 post on this topic. And I've read that converting IHC cars to the body mount KDs you recommend will work on 22" curves. Is that also true for 18" or is that too tight to keep them on the track? - Ort007

QUOTE: [i]originally posted by AntonioFP45[i]
Don. I feel that modelers should be able to run IHC, Rivorossi, and Walther's cars mixed together.

A number of modelers that already have IHC and Rivorossis are probably starting out with a few Walther's cars and would still like to be able to form a reasonablly long train.

While I'm not too fond of the IHC cars, the Rivorossi streamlined cars (of which I have a fleet of) look pretty decent (when detailed inside out) when put next to the Walther's cars. Just my opinion - AntonioFP45

TWO GOOD QUESTIONS / REPLY:
THE TRUCKS will navigate 18" curves but the couplers become the problem. IHC and Rivarossi (and ConCor) use 'TALGO' mounted couplers on their 80' cars to circumvent. So does Athearn on their 72' cars. Shorter cars (or Talgo couplers) is the answer.

BODY MOUNTS should have #6 (36,46) for 22"curves and acceptable operation.

MIXING CARS: Of Course it's desirable but they have to have matching dynamics to run dependably. IE: reasonably matching weights and similar to matching couplers.

DERAILMENTS: If there is any area I have enormous expertise - it's in derailments. I've had every kind of derailment there is to have - therefor truly offer the voice of .experience.

NO NO's! Talgo (truck mounted) coupling to Body Mount's. I will even add a Talgo mount to one end of a car(s) if they are going to be coupled to anything with Talgos (Athearn Alco PA's for example). My Athearn PA's have now been converted. . Be wary of any piece of equipment with Talgo mounted couplers connecting to non-Talgo's.

I even go so far as to nix coupling different brands together. (Kato to KD for example). They don't derail, they drop cars. Forget couplers that come with Proto 2000's - backing up a 10 car train a few times will cure you.

ANTHONY: As long as your IHC, Rivarossi, ConCor, Kato, and Budd cars are all close to 6.5oz and are either all body mounts (or all Talgo) with matching couplers, you are on safe ground , and can reasonably stay out of trouble - your wife willing..

As it is now, If I have any problems it's from non-matching KD's. Their #6 has different spring tensions (side/side and side-play) to their #5 / #40 's, as does their #30 series.

What happens with extra long cars on non prototypical tight curves is everything is exacerbated (made worse)..

.AND In the final analysis: We 'do what we can get by with'.

RE: Grease in jounals - it's an improvement over oil.. If a Molybdemum additive conducts electricy - why not?. I know it's used to sharpen Industrial tooling and is shipped by rail out of the 'Climax Mine'.in Colorado.

Where else can ONE take a rail fan trip out of Leadville today, and reach a 'Climax'' at the same time?

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CP5415

Don, would you be willing to tell us how you body mounted the KD's in the IHC cars?
You have me intrigued by this as you are right, the truck mounted McHenry's sag.- Gordon

GORDON:

They require shiiming to offsetthe 36" wheels.

JB's 'Rivarossi (RPO / Baggage) coupler pads' (Either JB#110 or #111) fit between the floor grooves and accept KD's (I recommend KD#36).

Be sure you cut away the Rivarossi faux inner and outer brake shoes with 36" wheel sets.and use some Teflon grease in the journals and they roll very decently. MY wheelset's of choice are JB 36"with NEM axles for their corregated streamlined 85' cars.

[ort007]

Don,
I've been following this thread and your Sept 19 post on this topic. And I've read that converting IHC cars to the body mount KDs you recommend will work on 22" curves. Is that also true for 18" or is that too tight to keep them on the track?
Thanks,
Ort007

[AntonioFP45]

Hi Don,

Have enjoyed your informative posts as always but I have to disagree with one. I feel that modelers should be able to run IHC, Rivorossi, and Walther's cars mixed together.

A number of modelers that already have IHC and Rivorossis are probably starting out with a few Walther's cars and would still like to be able to form a reasonablly long train.

While I'm not too fond of the IHC cars, the Rivorossi streamlined cars (of which I have a fleet of) look pretty decent (when detailed inside out) when put next to the Walther's cars.

Just my opinion

[CP5415]

Don, would you be willing to tell us how you body mounted the KD's in the IHC cars?
You have me intrigued by this as you are right, the truck mounted McHenry's sag.

Thanks in advance

Gordon

[Don Gibson]

IHC cars are poor examples of NMRA compliance. They however look nice.

For starters they're too light and have even less-than-freight-sized wheels (31");
They use TALGO trucks (with truck mounted couplers) plus McHenry coupler replacement's droop.

Cars and Couplers that match other brands was not IHC's goal. Certainly matching up with other makes such as Walther's wasn't planned.

I have a string of both IHC and Walthrers' cars. Even though my IHC's have been brought up to spec. (36" Wheels, body mt. KD 's, and NMRA weighting), I still run them serparately, and would suggest you might consider doing the same.

[Anonymous]

ANTONIOFP45; thanks for the info on the walthers budd cars. my fleet of IHC and others are getting old. I would like to replace them. My Eastern RR top train is the Silver Champion which has 8 cars on it. At that cost I woulld like into it.

silver champion

[MRTerry]

My Water Level Route has a small fleet of Walthers cars, and I've had pretty good luck with them. Walthers recommends lubricating the axle ends sparingly with a plastic-compatible lube like LaBelle no. 107. We saw the gauge problem on some early cars, and talked with Walthers about it. They promised to check on it, and the newer cars I've seen have been fine. Still, it's always a good idea to check any wheels before they go on your layout, even aftermarket replacements. If you're not going to add lights to your car, Kadee wheels are a direct fit, and they have acetal plastic axles.
As far as coupler height, yes, some cars are better than others. Replacing the factory couplers with a coupler with a metal shank helps. If the height is still incorrect, you can shim the boxes with .005 or .010 styrene (make sure the coupler can still pivot, though), change the coupler pocket as well, or use a coupler with a raised or lowered shank. You may also want to check to make sure the screws on the trucks are all uniform, or that a contact spring isn't bent.
Have a good week,
Terry