WALTHERS BUDD CARS - Evaluation

[csmith9474]

From the "DOWN" side of this report, and the problems and cost to rectify, and purchase new couplers, wouldn't this be a pretty good indicator NOT to buy this product? ? or is this something new out there? it seems people will buy anything as long as someone else buys it too.

Not at all a good reason to write them off.  

For forty years, we have purchased cars and locomotives with hook horn couplers and replaced every one with Kadee's.  We did not avoid them just because they needed some upgrades. 

Most all of the available cars on the market use some after market couplers other than Kadee's since Kadee's are higher priced.  If you want great passenger cars, buy Coach Yard.  My last five Coach Yard cars came with #58 Kadee couplers and I did not have to replace them.

Thank you

 

Coach Yard cars are by far the finest cars I have purchased. The older Samhongsa and current Sam Tech stuff is definately superior quality. The only problem I have come across is having to tune the trucks up for regular operation. The only single thing I hate about The Coach Yard is waiting. By the time I get my Santa Fe division superintendent's business car (shorty), it will have been about two years since I first ordered it. I suppose the wait is well worth it though.

[CAZEPHYR]

From the "DOWN" side of this report, and the problems and cost to rectify, and purchase new couplers, wouldn't this be a pretty good indicator NOT to buy this product? ? or is this something new out there? it seems people will buy anything as long as someone else buys it too.

Not at all a good reason to write them off.  

For forty years, we have purchased cars and locomotives with hook horn couplers and replaced every one with Kadee's.  We did not avoid them just because they needed some upgrades. 

Most all of the available cars on the market use some after market couplers other than Kadee's since Kadee's are higher priced.  If you want great passenger cars, buy Coach Yard.  My last five Coach Yard cars came with #58 Kadee couplers and I did not have to replace them.

Thank you

[AntonioFP45]

From the "DOWN" side of this report, and the problems and cost to rectify, and purchase new couplers, wouldn't this be a pretty good indicator NOT to buy this product? ? or is this something new out there? it seems people will buy anything as long as someone else buys it too.

The Walthers Budd cars, IMHO, have been the finest and most accurate plastic HO streamliners on the market.  We just have to consider that many brand new products (including automobiles, home stereos, etc,) may have minor items "here and there" that may require tweaking.  It's a fact of life.  Doesn't mean it's a bad product. 

Overall my only problems with the Budds have been couplers, which are easy to fix. Don Gibson's input has been very valuable.  

If I had the money available I'd buy a total of 30 more Walthers Budd passenger cars in the SCL, ACL, SAL, RF&P, NYC, and Santa Fe schemes. 

For those of you that were around back in the 1980s, when Rivorossi's were just about the best plastic Budds we could get ( I have a batch)  you may agree that for the price these Walthers Budd cars are a huge leap ahead. 

 

 

[tatans]

From the "DOWN" side of this report, and the problems and cost to rectify, and purchase new couplers, wouldn't this be a pretty good indicator NOT to buy this product? ? or is this something new out there? it seems people will buy anything as long as someone else buys it too.

[CAZEPHYR]

Don

 

Thanks for the comments.  I copied them and filed them in my trains folder on the computer.

Thanks 

Cal

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: I think the product is called Molybdenum, a by-product of lead mines. It is basically lead that did not solidify.

Well, that's partially correct --- except for the cpmment "it is basically lead that did not solidify."

Molybdenum and lead are two different elements in the periodic table. I point this out so people won't think of "moly" (as it is commpnly called) as something toxic like lead.

Woodland Scenics offers "Moly Grease" in a 1/3 oz. tube for just a few dollars.  Easy for any LHS to order if out of stock.  Part #HL656.  Use just a small amount inside the journals.

Peace.

[Tom Curtin]

QUOTE: I think the product is called Molybdenum, a by-product of lead mines. It is basically lead that did not solidify.

Well, that's partially correct --- except for the cpmment "it is basically lead that did not solidify."

Molybdenum and lead are two different elements in the periodic table. I point this out so people won't think of "moly" (as it is commpnly called) as something toxic like lead.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emdgp92

Walthers is having a sale on some of the Budd cars. I bought an NYC baggage-dorm and an Amtrak 10-6 sleeper for about $17 each. Even though I don't model those roads, PC ran similar cars. So, I'm going to strip and repaint them. With the NYC car, that's simple--a little gentle scraping with the x-acto knife, and the NYC lettering came right off. It'll be a simple matter of repainting and redecaling the letterboard. At least the kit includes PC-style numbers. The Amtrak car needs a bit more work. I'll have to strip and repaint the entire car. Oh well, I can't complain, since I still got a great deal [:D]

Their site has been down all night. [V]

[hdtvnut]

I have had a set of Amtrak Ph 2 Budds for awhile. Got six Seaboard
Coast Line cars at a show a few weeks ago for a bargain price. Then
saw the Walthers sale and bought two more.

All of these had those #$%@ plastic finger couplers, and I started
replacing them with Kadees last week. Like some of you, I found
#42's were needed, as 5's were too high according to my Kadee gauge.
I have chewed on Walthers several times about cheap couplers on
expensive cars. I now have a bag of about 200 of these and still
going........

The rolling friction will definitely not compare with Branchlines.

But they ARE pretty.

Hal

[emdgp92]

Walthers is having a sale on some of the Budd cars. I bought an NYC baggage-dorm and an Amtrak 10-6 sleeper for about $17 each. Even though I don't model those roads, PC ran similar cars. So, I'm going to strip and repaint them. With the NYC car, that's simple--a little gentle scraping with the x-acto knife, and the NYC lettering came right off. It'll be a simple matter of repainting and redecaling the letterboard. At least the kit includes PC-style numbers. The Amtrak car needs a bit more work. I'll have to strip and repaint the entire car. Oh well, I can't complain, since I still got a great deal [:D]

[AntonioFP45]

Re: Couplers.

I've been experimenting with the following combination.

Kadee #49 and #42 "overset" shank couplers. The front of each car gets the #49 while the rear gets the 42. When coupled facing the correct direction, the gap between cars is not too wide, but still allows negotiating tighter curves.

I will be installing lighting kits in the near future.[;)]

[AntonioFP45]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to tell you that I learned an embarassing lesson because I kept "putting off" a simple job involving couplers.

I took my HO P2K ACL E8, along with several Walthers Budd cars to the club I joined. As my train ran, I continued to have cars uncouple here and there on curves. The problem? I had not changed out the stock (or junk!) EZ-Mate couplers that come on the cars. Upon close inspection I saw that the plastic tensioners (where a spring would normally be on a Kadee) had almost no tension left and knuckles were opening as cars glided through curves.

I felt like an idiot, knowing that at home I had several packs of Kadee couplers that I'd bought over the year but had not installed on my Budds since I had been concentrating on building freight cars and weathering them.

Lesson learned: Don't run the equipment on a session until you've performed the needed homework!

[Anonymous]

My Walthers' Budds had stub axles mounted in acetal plastic tubes so gauge adjustment is just a slight rotation in or out.

What are yours made out of?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

CHECKING OUT BUDD PASSENGER CARS.
:
COMPLAINTS:
1. Couplers are "too high" and don't mate with Athearn.
2. Out of Gauge wheels.
3. "Drag" or 'poor rolling' .

FINDINGS: Out of 21 cars:
1. 20 had correct NMRA coupler height.
2. 3 cars had out of gauge wheels
3. All cars: had poor rolling from friction from the metal axles and metal journals, for lighting. .

CORRECTIONS:
1. All (ecept 1)matchNMRA specs. Athearn' engines don't.
One car was had one end.higher. Trading trucks on the car brought it to correction - both ends.
2. see below.
3. Use of 'Graphite' increased rolling without losing opportunities for lighting. (Regauge any wheels while out of trucks).

COMMENT; may I recommend KD #47, #37, or #27 with offset's for your Athrearn equipment? NMRA specifications are only RECOMMENDED. Some maufacturer's prefer to use their own.

Thanks for the report, as it is very infomative. Are replacement wheel sets availbel to correct the out of gauge problems?? If these cars had the handrails already installed, they would be really great, but that a task to fini***his winter.

Thanks

[WEUSANDCORR]

I have bought 4 of the Walthers Bi-level C&NW cars and to get them to negotiate 22" curves I had to remove the line[air steam what ever] affixed tothe floor near the outside wall, from the bogie area other wise they kept derailing .Anyboty else have this problem? Regards Les

[Anonymous]

There's a lack of consistency with these Budds.

[
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Question about HO?
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:26:44 -0700
Hello again Chuck,

Since today is a Holiday for the rest of the world and no one know
we are
open I took sometime to again look at the Walthers Budd cars.

I acquired three different cars and two Walthers/Rivarossi passenger
cars and what I found in my notes and looking at them again just today is
listed.
Budd SAL Baggage: Both ends slightly high,

Budd SAL Lounge car: Both ends high, although one end not high enough
to use the next offset coupler.

Budd Amtrak Phase 2 Grill/Diner: One end OK one end too high.

Sam Clarke.
Kadee Quality Products.

[Don Gibson]

WHEELSETS axle shapes are only half of the 'Rolling' quotient. SIDEFRAMES are the other half. Think of 'Male - Female' or 'Pin and Socket' s. If you doubt me, let your favorite car roll down a slight incline - then do the same with just the wheels.

Plastic side frames may offer the lowest friction, but will more quickly wear into Oblong 'holes' where the axles turn, Lubricated Metal sideframes may not roll as well, but might offer more resistance to wear.

BEST is needle point ales with Delrin as sideframes, but the polishing of the axles might play a bigger part than the polish on the wheels.

In rhe final analysis, it's WHATEVER works for YOU.


You hear the one abut the man from Warsaw visiting his cousin in NY who thought his life was in danger, when he spotted a bottle of Polish Remover?.

[Anonymous]

I learned from Don.

[Anonymous]

Antonio.
First off my Budds were first run. Perhaps subsequent runs got better but to answer your question:The stock wheel sets have stub axles mounted in acetal plastic tubes so that eight wheel electrical pickup is
available for lighting.
These stubs are cone shape. The IM are true neddle point axles, both BB & non-BB. I have both. The BBs
have a slight rolling advantage over the non BBs but are not worth the premium price.

I negated the lighting system when I installed the IM with a single wheel insulator. That was three years ago.

Since then, there has been a few discoveries one of which is www.reboxx.com an after market vendor.

Going back to mondotrains April 2004 post on Trains, he stated that IM makes the wheels for reboxx and
reboxx installs them on any one of 17 different custom axle lengths.
Where you go to reboxx, click on "PRODUCTS" and scroll down to "ROLL TESTER" read and then click again.

Reboxx uses this device to test the performance . It measures the number of times the
axles set freely climbs up & returns down the ramp. As a comparison it also measures the stock set.

There are variables here depending upon which truck type the model car manufacturer uses.

Call reboxx, 1-800-935-2195 and asked them if they have double insulated axle/wheels for the budds and what the roll performance is for both the stock & upgrade.

[AntonioFP45]

10-4 on that Don!

Took me a little while (getting old), but I understand now.

You may have mentioned this on another post, on these trucks we are talking "Metal to Metal" friction so one has to assume that eventually the trucks' journals will "round out" eventually.

Has this happened to you yet? Do you know of a fix, or is the truck simply replaced?

Thanks!

[Don Gibson]

AGIN

Problem using GRAPHITE with conventional HO applications is ONE wheel has to be insulated..

GRAPHITE can ultimately short out an insulated wheel. Think of looking for one wheelset shorting out your wholelayout, because it's become non-insulated,

WALTHERS BUDD CARS are the exception. They have plastis axles,

[jimrice4449]

Rather than using a moly grease, try dry graphite powder. I have a hump yard and rolling qualities are critical. I keep a squeeze bottle( A West in the Walthers catalog) filled with KD graphite powder. A quick shot in each journal and blow off the excess and away they go. On the Walthers passenger cars, a problem nobody has mentioned (or aren't aware of) is that they're 6 scale inches too high. This sounds like nit-picking but if you're modeling a particular train there are generally some cars that are "train specific", ussually bagg/dorms, lounge, diner and observation. I recently did a Panama Limited using the Walthers cars for the stansard sleepers and brass for the Bagg/dorm and observation (Soho) and diner and lounge (Railway Classics). The brass cars lined up with each other just fine but there was a noticable hight difference compared to the Walthers cars. After trying to lower one of the Walthers cars I gave up and raised the other four

[Don Gibson]

CHUCK WALSH (and Wathers' Budd car owners):

PROBLEM: ROLLING RESISTANCE is being caused by METAL to METAL contact of the wheel axles to the SIDEFRAMES.. SOLUTION: Applying a lubricant to minimize friction..This, however can retard lighting.

PROBLEM: LIGHTING: Most lubricant's inhibit electrical flow for lighting by putting a film between metal/metal contacts. This compromises use of the WALTHERS optional lighting system. SOLUTION: A film that is slipperty and conducts electricity such as Graphite.

That being said, substituting conventional HO metal wheelsets (non half-axles) witl negate the lighting potntial while still leaving the metal axle / metal sideframe friction problem. If new wheels turn better, fine - but for how long?

CHUCK: if your IM wheels roll better, they're good wheels, but I suspect it is probably due to some lubricant coating applied at the factory.

ANTHONY: If a better conductive lunricant comes along with better rolling qualities than graphite (in a sid by side test) I'll use it . My head's not THAT hard.
e
'FLICKERING' is rapid on-off electrical flow effecting lights. It's Sonic Equivalent is 'STATIC'. It is caused by wheels rolling on track being used to pick up electricity and:INTERMITTANCY or intermittant contact,
SOLUTION::Capacitance. It doesn't eliminate it, but slows down so the eye doesn't notice it. WALTHERS uses twin capacitotrs in their lighting module, I went to 15,000 mfds once to eliminate flickeriing.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

After I bot the Budds I added the light bars. Each stock axle had two insulated wheels.
I assumed that this idea reduced or eliminated flickering.

The drag problem I ran into was my 17.5 oz Atlas Dash 8-32B could only pull three cars.

AN ATLAS?! Wow!

QUOTE: I upgraded to IM BBs wheel sets that only have one insulated wheel per axle and sold the light bars.

I think Reboxx now sells double insulated sets.

Thanks, I'll check this out. Besides the double insulation, what is different about your IM wheels that lets them roll more freely than the stock Walthers wheels. Finer needle points? Smaller diameter axles?

I'm just wondering because Walther's makes such a nice looking car and one would think that they made the effort to make the best rolling qualities available.

I definetly want my Proto 2000 E7s to be able to pull my 10 car version of the SCL Champion at 70 to 80 scale mph, so if changing the wheels helps, I'll go for it......................along with a detailed letter to Walthers.

I'll check out the Reboxx wheels.

Thanks![:D]

[Anonymous]

After I bot the Budds I added the light bars. Each stock axle had two insulated wheels.
I assumed that this idea reduced or eliminated flickering.

The drag problem I ran into was my 17.5 oz Atlas Dash 8-32B could only pull three cars.
I upgraded to IM BBs wheel sets that only have one insulated wheel per axle and sold the light bars.

I think Reboxx now sells double insulated sets.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

For what it's worth, I never had a flickering problem in the budds . I had way too-too much drag with the first run so the stock double insulated wheels and superior light bars parted company.
I assumed that since current is picked up from both rails, flickering was
eliminated

Locomotive3[8D]

O.K! Now this is interesting! [;)]

Are you saying that the wheel drag that these cars have can be eliminated without losing lighting ability? Which wheel sets did you install? It would be nice to reduce the drag as this would be much less of a strain on locomotives.

Also, double insulated wheels? Please explain.

Don Gibson-will do! I have the old KD Grease-em and am going to purchase Moly on my next trip to the hobbyshop as well as one lighting kit.

Thanks a lot![:)][:D][8D][;)][8)][tup]

[Anonymous]

For what it's worth, I never had a flickering problem in the budds . I had way too-too much drag with the first run so the stock double insulated wheels and superior light bars parted company.
I assumed that since current is picked up from both rails, flickering was
eliminated

[Don Gibson]

TONI-O:

Since I have not tried Molybnium as a lubricant, I wonder if you (or someone else) would compare it with Graghite in WALTHERS Budd cars side by side.
One car can use Kadee 'Greas-em (a Graphite).

It would help if both cars had lighting to compare 'flickrering' = a measure of conductivity - but not essential.

My inquiring mind want's to know.

[AntonioFP45]

Glad you mentioned this JimRice!

I'll have to double check but it seemed like my Rivorossi cars and Walthers cars have a slight height difference. I currently have my Rivorossi's dissassembled as I'm upgrading them to look more like the Walthers. If there is a height problem, then I'll compensate on the Rivorossi cars instead of tinkering with the Walthers.

Cheers!