WALTHERS BUDD CARS - Evaluation

[Don Gibson]

CHECKING OUT BUDD PASSENGER CARS.
:
COMPLAINTS:
1. Couplers are "too high" and don't mate with Athearn.
2. Out of Gauge wheels.
3. "Drag" or 'poor rolling' .

FINDINGS: Out of 21 cars:
1. 20 had correct NMRA coupler height.
2. 3 cars had out of gauge wheels
3. All cars: had poor rolling from friction from the metal axles and metal journals, for lighting. .

CORRECTIONS:
1. All (ecept 1)matchNMRA specs. Athearn' engines don't.
One car was had one end.higher. Trading trucks on the car brought it to correction - both ends.
2. see below.
3. Use of 'Graphite' increased rolling without losing opportunities for lighting. (Regauge any wheels while out of trucks).

COMMENT; may I recommend KD #47, #37, or #27 with offset's for your Athrearn equipment? NMRA specifications are only RECOMMENDED. Some maufacturer's prefer to use their own.

[Anonymous]

Nice job!
This recommendation should be added to every text in Model Railrailroading Course 100, 01 & 02.

Boy, you must have some high profitable passenger runs to have all those cars

[AntonioFP45]

Great job, Don.

This is another one of your posts that I'm printing up and using as reference! You should have a column in MRR! [4:-)][tup]

Re: Graphite. I thought about using it but a friend of mine used graphite before and stated that when it smeared on top of his rails he had a hard time removing it.

He's trying a lubricating product called (sic) "Mulidamin" which is commonly sold in hobby shops under another name (Molly magic something?). It supposedly lubricates and conducts electricity at the same time since one of the ingredients is crushed graphite. [;)]

Cheers and Thanks!

[cacole]

I think the product is called Molybdenum, a by-product of lead mines. It is basically lead that did not solidify. More commonly called simply Moly. I don't know if you can still get it, but I used to use a motor oil sold under the brand name of Auto Moly. According to my dictionary, Molybdenum is a hard, heavy, silver-white, metallic element having properties similar to tungsten, used in electrical equipment and hard steel alloys. I've never seen it in any hobby shops, though. Based on the dictionary definition, it should be a good product to use as a conductive lubricant.

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks Cacole!

Happy Hobo Trains in Tampa sells it, so perhaps it may be available at shops in your town. A friend of mine gets his from Electronics dealers.

Cheers!

[Anonymous]

I suspect many modelers think the Walthers couplers are too high because the actuating trip pins are higher off the rails than are Kadees. Walthers may have used shorter trip pins to help eliminate them as a source of derailmants--but I have yet to test them to see how reliably they uncouple.

As a solution to the coupler height mismatch problem, I would suggest raising the couplers on the Athearn equipment (by using a Kadee or Kadee-compatible coupler with an offset shank) rather than lowering a Walthers coupler that specs out at the industry-standard height.

[Anonymous]

I've only got one of these cars as yet (A Pullman 6-6-4 Sleeper), and I've found that Kadee #5s are a straight swap, resulting in the correct coupler height. I did think about using graphite in the bearings but considering the tendency of this stuff to get everywhere I used some "Vaseline" petroleum jelly - this seems to work ok, I've noticed a drop in rolling resistance, no squeaks or groans, and the lighting kit works well (these are definitely worth buying, very easy to fit and an even glow at scale speeds). All in all, these are excellent cars and good value for the money - over here they're priced about the same as Fleischmann (German) passenger cars, and the quality is roughly equal in my opinion.

[Don Gibson]

LUBRICATION:

REMEMBER the sayings : "location, location, location"... and "too much of a good thing" ... ?

If graphite spills out on the track, It can be wiped up with a rag. If it is picked up on wheels (along with dirt etc.) it comes off with the dirt.... but Unlike oil, it doesn't 'attract' it..

I use ALL lubricant's sparingly.

In the case of Graphite, it's elecrical properties make it desirable for the WALTHERS cars - since Walthers cars have insulated axles.

[rexhea]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fiverings

I suspect many modelers think the Walthers couplers are too high because the actuating trip pins are higher off the rails than are Kadees. Walthers may have used shorter trip pins to help eliminate them as a source of derailmants--but I have yet to test them to see how reliably they uncouple.

It is true that the trip pins are shorter and higher and they do give the illusion that the coupler is too high. No, they don't uncouple very well if at all.

I will tell it again as in other threads that some of the Budd car's couplers do not match the NMRA Gauge and must be dealt with by replacing with the proper type KD coupler or by forming the pickup contacts on the bottom of the car upward to relieve the pressure from the trucks letting the car sit lower. Also, the EZ-Mate couplers supplied on some cars do not fit the coupler box very well and have a tendacy to lean down. This can also through you off thinking that the coupler and box is too low. All observations were made with an NMRA gauge, not with a loco of any brand. I don't even own an Athern.

Again, just take it car by car and see if anything needs to be done. Yours may need nothing. Mine did. Usually simple replacement of the couplers is all that needs to be done.

Walthers has done an excellent job designing the Budd cars. These little problems are simple and easy to overcome and shouldn't prevent anyone from purchasing these beautiful passenger cars.


REX

[bogp40]

Don,t use a moly grease from Auto parts stores unless your lubing metal to metal. I don't believe they are plastic compatible. I have been tempted to use engine assy lubes and cam lube. I feel safer using the hobby brands like Labelle. The only place I recommend any grease would be for gears and worms(Labelle 106 w/ teflon). A moly grease might be appealing to use but rotating axles/ journals lubed will have a tendancy to gunk up with all kinds of road dust, lint ,scenery, etc. I have had very good luck with lubing Central Valley truck axles with graphite.
Bob K.

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Robert,

The Moly grease I'm referring to can be found in electronics stores. According to a good friend of mine one of the components is "crushed graphite" so it lubricates and conducts electricity without making a mess. He also shared with me that technicians often use it to lubricate the moving parts of record album turntables (like the type used by professional DJs).

For the Walther's trucks all that is needed is a dab that will fit on of a toothpick.

10-4![:D]

[Anonymous]

I too have tried Don's KD graphite procedure besides Conducta lube & cleaner by Aero Locomotive works, LaGrange Illinois.
This lube is recommended for enhancing all electrical contact areas such as motor brushes &, commutators, wheel & chassis sliding wipers and axle bearing contact points..
Comes witha neat needle point applicator, just flip the car , point & shoot the lube while rotating my new upgraded IM all metal sets.(This negates the lighting system) This is a very thin lube that actually conducts electricity.

How long does it last between applications, don't know but the is the easiest method for this old fart.
I have great IM momentun(no lights) even w/o the lube but do pick up an occasional squeals.

http://www.aerocarlubricants.com/trains/index.htm

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the info on the Walthers cars. To me paying $35 to $50.00 per car is alot of money when you use 7 to 8 cars on a train. I have the Kato business car and it roll down the train ok for me but the coupler is too high for my IHC cars.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SILVERCHAMPION

I have the Kato business car and it roll down the train ok for me but the coupler is too high for my IHC cars.

I too have the Kato business and it's stock roll is far superior than my stock budds so I didn't have to upgrade.

[MRTerry]

My Water Level Route has a small fleet of Walthers cars, and I've had pretty good luck with them. Walthers recommends lubricating the axle ends sparingly with a plastic-compatible lube like LaBelle no. 107. We saw the gauge problem on some early cars, and talked with Walthers about it. They promised to check on it, and the newer cars I've seen have been fine. Still, it's always a good idea to check any wheels before they go on your layout, even aftermarket replacements. If you're not going to add lights to your car, Kadee wheels are a direct fit, and they have acetal plastic axles.
As far as coupler height, yes, some cars are better than others. Replacing the factory couplers with a coupler with a metal shank helps. If the height is still incorrect, you can shim the boxes with .005 or .010 styrene (make sure the coupler can still pivot, though), change the coupler pocket as well, or use a coupler with a raised or lowered shank. You may also want to check to make sure the screws on the trucks are all uniform, or that a contact spring isn't bent.
Have a good week,
Terry

[Anonymous]

ANTONIOFP45; thanks for the info on the walthers budd cars. my fleet of IHC and others are getting old. I would like to replace them. My Eastern RR top train is the Silver Champion which has 8 cars on it. At that cost I woulld like into it.

silver champion

[Don Gibson]

IHC cars are poor examples of NMRA compliance. They however look nice.

For starters they're too light and have even less-than-freight-sized wheels (31");
They use TALGO trucks (with truck mounted couplers) plus McHenry coupler replacement's droop.

Cars and Couplers that match other brands was not IHC's goal. Certainly matching up with other makes such as Walther's wasn't planned.

I have a string of both IHC and Walthrers' cars. Even though my IHC's have been brought up to spec. (36" Wheels, body mt. KD 's, and NMRA weighting), I still run them serparately, and would suggest you might consider doing the same.

[CP5415]

Don, would you be willing to tell us how you body mounted the KD's in the IHC cars?
You have me intrigued by this as you are right, the truck mounted McHenry's sag.

Thanks in advance

Gordon

[AntonioFP45]

Hi Don,

Have enjoyed your informative posts as always but I have to disagree with one. I feel that modelers should be able to run IHC, Rivorossi, and Walther's cars mixed together.

A number of modelers that already have IHC and Rivorossis are probably starting out with a few Walther's cars and would still like to be able to form a reasonablly long train.

While I'm not too fond of the IHC cars, the Rivorossi streamlined cars (of which I have a fleet of) look pretty decent (when detailed inside out) when put next to the Walther's cars.

Just my opinion

[ort007]

Don,
I've been following this thread and your Sept 19 post on this topic. And I've read that converting IHC cars to the body mount KDs you recommend will work on 22" curves. Is that also true for 18" or is that too tight to keep them on the track?
Thanks,
Ort007

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CP5415

Don, would you be willing to tell us how you body mounted the KD's in the IHC cars?
You have me intrigued by this as you are right, the truck mounted McHenry's sag.- Gordon

GORDON:

They require shiiming to offsetthe 36" wheels.

JB's 'Rivarossi (RPO / Baggage) coupler pads' (Either JB#110 or #111) fit between the floor grooves and accept KD's (I recommend KD#36).

Be sure you cut away the Rivarossi faux inner and outer brake shoes with 36" wheel sets.and use some Teflon grease in the journals and they roll very decently. MY wheelset's of choice are JB 36"with NEM axles for their corregated streamlined 85' cars.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ort007

Don,
I've been following this thread and your Sept 19 post on this topic. And I've read that converting IHC cars to the body mount KDs you recommend will work on 22" curves. Is that also true for 18" or is that too tight to keep them on the track? - Ort007

QUOTE: [i]originally posted by AntonioFP45[i]
Don. I feel that modelers should be able to run IHC, Rivorossi, and Walther's cars mixed together.

A number of modelers that already have IHC and Rivorossis are probably starting out with a few Walther's cars and would still like to be able to form a reasonablly long train.

While I'm not too fond of the IHC cars, the Rivorossi streamlined cars (of which I have a fleet of) look pretty decent (when detailed inside out) when put next to the Walther's cars. Just my opinion - AntonioFP45

TWO GOOD QUESTIONS / REPLY:
THE TRUCKS will navigate 18" curves but the couplers become the problem. IHC and Rivarossi (and ConCor) use 'TALGO' mounted couplers on their 80' cars to circumvent. So does Athearn on their 72' cars. Shorter cars (or Talgo couplers) is the answer.

BODY MOUNTS should have #6 (36,46) for 22"curves and acceptable operation.

MIXING CARS: Of Course it's desirable but they have to have matching dynamics to run dependably. IE: reasonably matching weights and similar to matching couplers.

DERAILMENTS: If there is any area I have enormous expertise - it's in derailments. I've had every kind of derailment there is to have - therefor truly offer the voice of .experience.

NO NO's! Talgo (truck mounted) coupling to Body Mount's. I will even add a Talgo mount to one end of a car(s) if they are going to be coupled to anything with Talgos (Athearn Alco PA's for example). My Athearn PA's have now been converted. . Be wary of any piece of equipment with Talgo mounted couplers connecting to non-Talgo's.

I even go so far as to nix coupling different brands together. (Kato to KD for example). They don't derail, they drop cars. Forget couplers that come with Proto 2000's - backing up a 10 car train a few times will cure you.

ANTHONY: As long as your IHC, Rivarossi, ConCor, Kato, and Budd cars are all close to 6.5oz and are either all body mounts (or all Talgo) with matching couplers, you are on safe ground , and can reasonably stay out of trouble - your wife willing..

As it is now, If I have any problems it's from non-matching KD's. Their #6 has different spring tensions (side/side and side-play) to their #5 / #40 's, as does their #30 series.

What happens with extra long cars on non prototypical tight curves is everything is exacerbated (made worse)..

.AND In the final analysis: We 'do what we can get by with'.

RE: Grease in jounals - it's an improvement over oil.. If a Molybdemum additive conducts electricy - why not?. I know it's used to sharpen Industrial tooling and is shipped by rail out of the 'Climax Mine'.in Colorado.

Where else can ONE take a rail fan trip out of Leadville today, and reach a 'Climax'' at the same time?

[rexhea]

Don,
I feel certain that all of us would like to thank you for such thorough research and evaluation. It is this kind of information sharing that will insure a higher quality in our model railroading and keep us from making the frustrating OOPS!

The Best, REX [:)]

[ort007]

Ditto on the "thanks". I really appreciate the great advice. I know it comes from hard earned experience.

Ort007

[Anonymous]

Mine were fine, straight from the box to the rails, they roll great![:D]

[AntonioFP45]

Recently bought the 36" wheels from Branchline. Am installing them on my HO streamlined Rivorossi cars. Do look forward to matching them up to my Walther's cars.

Again Don, thanks!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45



Again Don, thanks!

Donald. Your friends/fellow modelers are waiting.

[Anonymous]

Someone above asked about where to get graphite or Moly. You might want to try either Hobby Lobby or Michaels. Go to where they have the pinecar stuff. Powdered graphite can be found there (don't get the teflon stuff - I don't think it conducts electricity). I believe the graphite is actually a graphite/molly mix. Stuff is pretty inexpensive.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

Someone above asked about where to get graphite or Moly. You might want to try either Hobby Lobby or Michaels. Go to where they have the pinecar stuff. Powdered graphite can be found there (don't get the teflon stuff - I don't think it conducts electricity). I believe the graphite is actually a graphite/molly mix. Stuff is pretty inexpensive.

Thanks for the tip Dkelly. One thing though: It's good to stay away from the graphite powder and get the Moly grease instead as it does conduct electricity. A good friend of mine used powdered graphite on his axles one time.........and had a hard time getting it off of his track.

[AntonioFP45]

GUYS!

Is it just me getting old, or do some of you have a very hard time removing the wheels/axles off of the Walther's passenger car trucks! I just had a wrestling match with the ACL coach that I just won off of Ebay and wow, what a bear!

"O.K folks and here are the game's scores: "

ACL Car: 100 [:D][8D] Antonio FP45: 0 [B)][:p][:0][:p]


I have a few that are really squealing and, one way or the other, am going to give them a dab of lubricant!