WALTHERS BUDD CARS - Evaluation

[Anonymous]

Antonio, my budd trucks are a two piece metal unit held together by two screws.

I too lube my upgraded IM sets in the stock truck with conducta lube. with a needle point applicator

[AntonioFP45]

Are you saying remove the truck first and then try to remove the axles?

[Anonymous]

On the cars I have (3 C&NW Bilevels and a C&NW PS sleeper) I found the best way to lube the bearings was to remove the trucks, then undo the screws holding one sideframe to the centre piece. This allows the wheelsets to drop out with no struggling needed. I then put a small dab of grease on each axle pinpoint before re-assembling the truck and refitting it to the car - no squeaking and lower rolling resistance, also the lighting seems a bit more stable! Hope this is of some help!

[AntonioFP45]

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Sorry Antonio, yes remove the truck. There are four tiny screws. Losen/remove and then spread the frames. Be careful when re-assembling. Make sure the truck is on a track and screw down evenly.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

Sorry Antonio, yes remove the truck. There are four tiny screws. Losen/remove and then spread the frames. Be careful when re-assembling. Make sure the truck is on a track and screw down evenly.

O.K! I really appreciate that. Thanks!

Basically I've been spoiled all these year on the mainteance free Rivorossi, ConCor, and Athearn passenger trucks. It was a simple matter of gently spreading the truck frame and nudging out the axle with a fingernail.

But of course, the higher the quality of a mechanism, the greater the maintenance that is required. But it's worth it, IMHO. This goes to show that Walther's really invested money and effort on these cars. I can't complain. These cars are really beautiful. I hope to have a fleet of SCL cars that would enable me to run a realistic versions of the Champion and Silver Star.

[:)][:D][;)][8)]

Cheers!

[Anonymous]

I've been looking into Walthers Budd cars, and judging by what you guys say, I think I'll be getting some. They may be a little expensive, but they're bound to be better than my Spectrum passenger cars (good running cars but those funny coupler boxes are just a pain in the @$$).

Soon I'll have enough cars for a decent length passenger train. If the Walthers cars are as good as my Kato Business car (best car for the money, IMO), I'll be very happy!

[AntonioFP45]

4884BigBoy,

E-mail Walthers and tell them that you want to start receiving the WALTHERS FLYER in the mail. The passenger cars are often on sale in there for around $25 instead of the usual $34+ dollars that they retail for. (though the Super Chief cars are higher in price)

Take the flyer to a participating hobby shop, show the manager and he should sell you the car(s) that are in the flyer at the discounted price.

For $25 these cars are a bargain!

[Don Gibson]

TAMPA TONY:

As you surmised,there are 2 tiny screws holding those Walthers Budd trucks together. After spending an evenig on my hands and knees looking for one of those @!#* screws, I said "there has to be a better way". After doing 21 cars, you may want to try the following:

Loosen ONE OF THE SCREWS to where it won't fall out. Keeping it in place.
then loosen the other screw - just enough - to allow spreading the trucks apart for removing each wheel.* I lubricate the axle ends befoe assembling them. This helps keep the sides of the trucks bound together while working on them. Holding two sides together while inserting screws is not my idea of how to spend an evening.
EDIT *(One at a time - I reverse this proceedure for the other wheel )

RE:Lubricant's.


Oils thin enough to pass electricity are also thin enough to run out of journals. Grease -which is solidified oil- sticks better. Now in the case of WALTHERS Budd cars, the journals and wheels are conductive metal for lighting (with the half-axles separated by plastic) so a lubricant that truly passes electricity such as Graphite, works.

CONVERSELy:
Graphite, or any CODUCTING LUBRICANT, can short out the insulation on conventional HO wheels and cause short cicuits. SO, GRAPHITE is recommended only for the Budd cars, and GREASE for conventional cars.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

4884BigBoy,

E-mail Walthers and tell them that you want to start receiving the WALTHERS FLYER in the mail. The passenger cars are often on sale in there for around $25 instead of the usual $34+ dollars that they retail for. (though the Super Chief cars are higher in price)

Take the flyer to a participating hobby shop, show the manager and he should sell you the car(s) that are in the flyer at the discounted price.

For $25 these cars are a bargain!

Antonio, I do already recieve the Walthers Flyer in the mail. But, I haven't gotten one in a few months. I think I'll have to send them a shout.

[CP5415]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

Soon I'll have enough cars for a decent length passenger train. If the Walthers cars are as good as my Kato Business car (best car for the money, IMO), I'll be very happy!

Jonathon,

The Walthers cars are as good as the Kato car. I have 9 Walthers Budd cars & Kato's CPR Business car. Unless you look close up, you can't tell the difference between the two manufacturers.
Just my 2 cents

Gordon

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

TAMPA TONY:

As you surmised,there are 2 tiny screws holding those Walthers Budd trucks together. After spending an evenig on my hands and knees looking for one of those @!#* screws, I said "there has to be a better way". After doing 21 cars, you may want to try the following:

Loosen ONE OF THE SCREWS to where it won't fall out. Keeping it in place.
then loosen the other screw - just enough - to allow spreading the trucks apart for removing each wheel.* I lubricate the axle ends befoe assembling them. This helps keep the sides of the trucks bound together while working on them. Holding two sides together while inserting screws is not my idea of how to spend an evening.
EDIT *(One at a time - I reverse this proceedure for the other wheel )

RE:Lubricant's.

Oils thin enough to pass electricity are also thin enough to run out of journals. Grease -which is solidified oil- sticks better. Now in the case of WALTHERS Budd cars, the journals and wheels are conductive metal for lighting (with the half-axles separated by plastic) so a lubricant that truly passes electricity such as Graphite, works.

CONVERSELy:
Graphite, or any CODUCTING LUBRICANT, can short out the insulation on conventional HO wheels and cause short cicuits. SO, GRAPHITE is recommended only for the Budd cars, and GREASE for conventional cars.

Hello Don,

That's a great tip. THANKS! I hope that the Walther's car owners on this forum read it.

You stirred some memories up as over the years I've been on my hands and knees on a carpeted floor looking for: screws, clips, Details West parts, KD couplers, handrail stanchions, etc,........while trying not to utter colorful metaphors! [:0][:p]

I plan on using the "Molybdenum" since it is a lubricant that contains crushed graphite.

BTW: In case you didn't see my thread, a rep from MILLER ENGINEERING told me in an e-mail that they will produce a passenger car lighting kit that's similar to the Walthers, however, the beauty of it is that it's going to feature blue-white L.E.Ds which will very much resemble Floursecent Lighting. It's still in the design stages. I'm excited about it as most prototype streamlined passenger cars used flourescent lighting while incadescent lights were in the narrow passageways and used as reading and supplemental lighting.

Last summer the good guys at my LHS poked fun at me as being too "nit picky" when I asked how floursecent lighting could be imitated in HO passenger cars. My problem was that I had ridden the prototypes too many times so those lights really stood out in my memory. (The Walthers lighting kit is incandescent).

I only plan to light a few cars, mainly diners, observations, and a couple of coaches.

Roger that! [:)][:D][8D][;)][8)]

[jimrice4449]

I have a hump yard which makes rolling quality imperative. I use dry graphite (like KD) in a squeeze bottle made by A West (I think they're in the Walthers catalog.) Works like a champ and doesn't drible on the track. Shoot it into each bearing surface and blow off excess before putting it on the track.
For some reason all Athearn equipment provides coupler hight that's too low. On the frt cars it's a simple matter to shave off the truck boss on the bolster and replace it with one made from the upper half of the KD cplr box. Brings it right up to the correct hight.
A more serious problem I have with the Walthers psgr cars is that they're too high by 6 scale inches. This sounds like nit-picking but if your mixing makes it's a problem. For example, I made up a Panama Limited with brass cars for the prototype specific cars...
Soho for the baggage/dorm and observation and Railway Classics (ouch!!!) for the diner and lounge. There's a quite noticable hight difference. After trying to lower one Walthers car I went the easy route and raised the brass cars to match the (incorrect) Walthers cars

[Anonymous]

I have the Budds in UP name & the Kato business car. Side by side, the colors are close but the gray roof
tops are different shades.
The Budd light bar is far superior to that of the chintzy Kato car , but the Kato car has a superior roll to that of Budd.

[AntonioFP45]

Glad you mentioned this JimRice!

I'll have to double check but it seemed like my Rivorossi cars and Walthers cars have a slight height difference. I currently have my Rivorossi's dissassembled as I'm upgrading them to look more like the Walthers. If there is a height problem, then I'll compensate on the Rivorossi cars instead of tinkering with the Walthers.

Cheers!

[Don Gibson]

TONI-O:

Since I have not tried Molybnium as a lubricant, I wonder if you (or someone else) would compare it with Graghite in WALTHERS Budd cars side by side.
One car can use Kadee 'Greas-em (a Graphite).

It would help if both cars had lighting to compare 'flickrering' = a measure of conductivity - but not essential.

My inquiring mind want's to know.

[Anonymous]

For what it's worth, I never had a flickering problem in the budds . I had way too-too much drag with the first run so the stock double insulated wheels and superior light bars parted company.
I assumed that since current is picked up from both rails, flickering was
eliminated

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

For what it's worth, I never had a flickering problem in the budds . I had way too-too much drag with the first run so the stock double insulated wheels and superior light bars parted company.
I assumed that since current is picked up from both rails, flickering was
eliminated

Locomotive3[8D]

O.K! Now this is interesting! [;)]

Are you saying that the wheel drag that these cars have can be eliminated without losing lighting ability? Which wheel sets did you install? It would be nice to reduce the drag as this would be much less of a strain on locomotives.

Also, double insulated wheels? Please explain.

Don Gibson-will do! I have the old KD Grease-em and am going to purchase Moly on my next trip to the hobbyshop as well as one lighting kit.

Thanks a lot![:)][:D][8D][;)][8)][tup]

[Anonymous]

After I bot the Budds I added the light bars. Each stock axle had two insulated wheels.
I assumed that this idea reduced or eliminated flickering.

The drag problem I ran into was my 17.5 oz Atlas Dash 8-32B could only pull three cars.
I upgraded to IM BBs wheel sets that only have one insulated wheel per axle and sold the light bars.

I think Reboxx now sells double insulated sets.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

After I bot the Budds I added the light bars. Each stock axle had two insulated wheels.
I assumed that this idea reduced or eliminated flickering.

The drag problem I ran into was my 17.5 oz Atlas Dash 8-32B could only pull three cars.

AN ATLAS?! Wow!

QUOTE: I upgraded to IM BBs wheel sets that only have one insulated wheel per axle and sold the light bars.

I think Reboxx now sells double insulated sets.

Thanks, I'll check this out. Besides the double insulation, what is different about your IM wheels that lets them roll more freely than the stock Walthers wheels. Finer needle points? Smaller diameter axles?

I'm just wondering because Walther's makes such a nice looking car and one would think that they made the effort to make the best rolling qualities available.

I definetly want my Proto 2000 E7s to be able to pull my 10 car version of the SCL Champion at 70 to 80 scale mph, so if changing the wheels helps, I'll go for it......................along with a detailed letter to Walthers.

I'll check out the Reboxx wheels.

Thanks![:D]

[Don Gibson]

CHUCK WALSH (and Wathers' Budd car owners):

PROBLEM: ROLLING RESISTANCE is being caused by METAL to METAL contact of the wheel axles to the SIDEFRAMES.. SOLUTION: Applying a lubricant to minimize friction..This, however can retard lighting.

PROBLEM: LIGHTING: Most lubricant's inhibit electrical flow for lighting by putting a film between metal/metal contacts. This compromises use of the WALTHERS optional lighting system. SOLUTION: A film that is slipperty and conducts electricity such as Graphite.

That being said, substituting conventional HO metal wheelsets (non half-axles) witl negate the lighting potntial while still leaving the metal axle / metal sideframe friction problem. If new wheels turn better, fine - but for how long?

CHUCK: if your IM wheels roll better, they're good wheels, but I suspect it is probably due to some lubricant coating applied at the factory.

ANTHONY: If a better conductive lunricant comes along with better rolling qualities than graphite (in a sid by side test) I'll use it . My head's not THAT hard.
e
'FLICKERING' is rapid on-off electrical flow effecting lights. It's Sonic Equivalent is 'STATIC'. It is caused by wheels rolling on track being used to pick up electricity and:INTERMITTANCY or intermittant contact,
SOLUTION::Capacitance. It doesn't eliminate it, but slows down so the eye doesn't notice it. WALTHERS uses twin capacitotrs in their lighting module, I went to 15,000 mfds once to eliminate flickeriing.

[jimrice4449]

Rather than using a moly grease, try dry graphite powder. I have a hump yard and rolling qualities are critical. I keep a squeeze bottle( A West in the Walthers catalog) filled with KD graphite powder. A quick shot in each journal and blow off the excess and away they go. On the Walthers passenger cars, a problem nobody has mentioned (or aren't aware of) is that they're 6 scale inches too high. This sounds like nit-picking but if you're modeling a particular train there are generally some cars that are "train specific", ussually bagg/dorms, lounge, diner and observation. I recently did a Panama Limited using the Walthers cars for the stansard sleepers and brass for the Bagg/dorm and observation (Soho) and diner and lounge (Railway Classics). The brass cars lined up with each other just fine but there was a noticable hight difference compared to the Walthers cars. After trying to lower one of the Walthers cars I gave up and raised the other four

[Don Gibson]

AGIN

Problem using GRAPHITE with conventional HO applications is ONE wheel has to be insulated..

GRAPHITE can ultimately short out an insulated wheel. Think of looking for one wheelset shorting out your wholelayout, because it's become non-insulated,

WALTHERS BUDD CARS are the exception. They have plastis axles,

[AntonioFP45]

10-4 on that Don!

Took me a little while (getting old), but I understand now.

You may have mentioned this on another post, on these trucks we are talking "Metal to Metal" friction so one has to assume that eventually the trucks' journals will "round out" eventually.

Has this happened to you yet? Do you know of a fix, or is the truck simply replaced?

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Antonio.
First off my Budds were first run. Perhaps subsequent runs got better but to answer your question:The stock wheel sets have stub axles mounted in acetal plastic tubes so that eight wheel electrical pickup is
available for lighting.
These stubs are cone shape. The IM are true neddle point axles, both BB & non-BB. I have both. The BBs
have a slight rolling advantage over the non BBs but are not worth the premium price.

I negated the lighting system when I installed the IM with a single wheel insulator. That was three years ago.

Since then, there has been a few discoveries one of which is www.reboxx.com an after market vendor.

Going back to mondotrains April 2004 post on Trains, he stated that IM makes the wheels for reboxx and
reboxx installs them on any one of 17 different custom axle lengths.
Where you go to reboxx, click on "PRODUCTS" and scroll down to "ROLL TESTER" read and then click again.

Reboxx uses this device to test the performance . It measures the number of times the
axles set freely climbs up & returns down the ramp. As a comparison it also measures the stock set.

There are variables here depending upon which truck type the model car manufacturer uses.

Call reboxx, 1-800-935-2195 and asked them if they have double insulated axle/wheels for the budds and what the roll performance is for both the stock & upgrade.

[Anonymous]

I learned from Don.

[Don Gibson]

WHEELSETS axle shapes are only half of the 'Rolling' quotient. SIDEFRAMES are the other half. Think of 'Male - Female' or 'Pin and Socket' s. If you doubt me, let your favorite car roll down a slight incline - then do the same with just the wheels.

Plastic side frames may offer the lowest friction, but will more quickly wear into Oblong 'holes' where the axles turn, Lubricated Metal sideframes may not roll as well, but might offer more resistance to wear.

BEST is needle point ales with Delrin as sideframes, but the polishing of the axles might play a bigger part than the polish on the wheels.

In rhe final analysis, it's WHATEVER works for YOU.


You hear the one abut the man from Warsaw visiting his cousin in NY who thought his life was in danger, when he spotted a bottle of Polish Remover?.

[Anonymous]

There's a lack of consistency with these Budds.

[
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Question about HO?
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:26:44 -0700
Hello again Chuck,

Since today is a Holiday for the rest of the world and no one know
we are
open I took sometime to again look at the Walthers Budd cars.

I acquired three different cars and two Walthers/Rivarossi passenger
cars and what I found in my notes and looking at them again just today is
listed.
Budd SAL Baggage: Both ends slightly high,

Budd SAL Lounge car: Both ends high, although one end not high enough
to use the next offset coupler.

Budd Amtrak Phase 2 Grill/Diner: One end OK one end too high.

Sam Clarke.
Kadee Quality Products.

[WEUSANDCORR]

I have bought 4 of the Walthers Bi-level C&NW cars and to get them to negotiate 22" curves I had to remove the line[air steam what ever] affixed tothe floor near the outside wall, from the bogie area other wise they kept derailing .Anyboty else have this problem? Regards Les

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

CHECKING OUT BUDD PASSENGER CARS.
:
COMPLAINTS:
1. Couplers are "too high" and don't mate with Athearn.
2. Out of Gauge wheels.
3. "Drag" or 'poor rolling' .

FINDINGS: Out of 21 cars:
1. 20 had correct NMRA coupler height.
2. 3 cars had out of gauge wheels
3. All cars: had poor rolling from friction from the metal axles and metal journals, for lighting. .

CORRECTIONS:
1. All (ecept 1)matchNMRA specs. Athearn' engines don't.
One car was had one end.higher. Trading trucks on the car brought it to correction - both ends.
2. see below.
3. Use of 'Graphite' increased rolling without losing opportunities for lighting. (Regauge any wheels while out of trucks).

COMMENT; may I recommend KD #47, #37, or #27 with offset's for your Athrearn equipment? NMRA specifications are only RECOMMENDED. Some maufacturer's prefer to use their own.

Thanks for the report, as it is very infomative. Are replacement wheel sets availbel to correct the out of gauge problems?? If these cars had the handrails already installed, they would be really great, but that a task to fini***his winter.

Thanks