November MR Koester article

[mobilman44]

Hi,

While the article was centered around a specific product, I just don't see what is all that unusual.

Pretty much all other articles center around a specific manufacturers offering of locos, track, cars, vehicles, structures, and so on.  This article was only "different" in that it was about a weathering product.

And while the product used was a specific one, the techniques and other information herein could be useful in themselves.

 

[floridaflyer]

I e-mailed Pan Pastels concerning Tony's mention of "weathering kits". Got an answer in less than an hour. They are in the process of rolling out two weathering kits, one with earth tones and the other with soot and grime. It appears that Tony used a combination of colors that would come both kits. I an going to give this method a try.  

[Geared Steam]

Wow, I guess I shouldn't be surprised what this thread turned into.

[zstripe]

Geared Steam,

Too bad,You couldn't change Your screen name,to match Your New Avatar,,,''The Ghost in the Darkness''..

Cheers,

Frank

[BRAKIE]

floridaflyer

Got an answer in less than an hour. They are in the process of rolling out two weathering kits, one with earth tones and the other with soot and grime. It appears that Tony used a combination of colors that would come both kits. I an going to give this method a try.  

So am I..I haven't read Tony's article yet but,from what I read in this topic I'm looking forward to it.

[superbe]

maxman

Okay, getting away from the conspiracy theories for a moment, I have a question.

My impression of all the chalk and powder products is that it leaves the rolling stock susceptible to finger prints from handling, especially since there is normally not a finish spray coat of some product to seal it.

Does the new product have some properties that that will resist this?

 

I just finished reading the article and the question of the ability of the products to stick was answered as below and I quote from the article.

"These products aren't quite like the popular and very useful weathering powders in that they tend to bond to the matte surface being weathered . I don't even need to apply fixative (clear coat) after applying them.   an Pastels look a lot like makeup and are applied in similar ways, but they're formulated for artists to use as they would pastel chalks."

IMHO Pan Pastels is a new and different product for model railroaders from what is already on the market and therefore it's name needed to be mentioned.

I'm just getting started with weathering and after reading this article I'll leave my weathering powders on the shelf and buy PanPastels. 

Plus no dull coat. It's a no brainer.

 

Bob

[Geared Steam]

zstripe

Geared Steam,

Too bad,You couldn't change Your screen name,to match Your New Avatar,,,''The Ghost in the Darkness''..

Cheers,

Frank

I gave up fighting those taggers..

[Pathfinder]

I too have not yet received, and hence read, the article but I know it is not unusual for MR or almost any other magazine to have a column on a specific product, and how it can be used by the reader.  No worries with me about conspiracies or maybe the advertisers running the hen house.  I look forward to seeing the article in question.

[rrinker]

 After reading it again while looking at the badly out of quarter rear driver, I noticed the company is literally right up the road from me.

                  --Randy

[Burlington Northern #24]

To be honest I'm frankly innate on the matter as I am trying to gather the guts to weather my stuff(aside from making up for a terrible paint job), I wouldn't see it as an advertisement but simply a recommendation. I see it really as no different from me offering some input to a new N scaler in the form of recommending one of my favorite N scale Manufacturers, I honestly think Tony's testing out a theory and it worked pretty good.

I mean shoot who cares what loco he used, at least they were kind enough to provide a chart on pg. 42 to show someone how to weather a steam engine. That said I won't weather my 4-8-2 light mountain just because she does dual service, shes one of the spoiled "kids."  

[dknelson]

Discovering a new product, or discovering a model railroad use for an existing product, getting excited/inspired, and writing an article about it is a time honored source of fodder for MR and all the other magazines.  From Strathmore board to Velcro to GatorBoard to Future floor polish to ALPS printers, assuming the product in question really has qualities that are special and not generic in nature, it would seem pointless, odd, and unhelpful not to name the product just to avoid having the article seem like an endorsement.

The late Art Curren wrote many articles about kitbashing the Mount Vernon Manufacturing Company kit that over the years AHM, Tyco,and LifeLike have sold.  Was he "endorsing" that kit?  Sure.  It's the point of the articles!  I am utterly unable to perceive the problem with that. 

By the way the same issue of MR has an article about a proprietary make of scenery foam, with no comment about that at all. 

P.S.  I am amending my post only to observe that what seemed "new" to me about the article and the technique was the use of the small sponge, of the sort used for ladies' makeup, and the small trowel of the sort someone who does fine work in clay might use.  It may well be that these PanPastels are the one product that these methods work with, and again to me those seemed like new ideas.  I imagine if they work with others (and I do recall some weathering tips years ago using a paint that had "crème" in its name, and was a very unusual texture) then we will soon hear about it.   Weathering materials that do not have to be sealed with DullCoat (oops, brand name) and thus save that time are always of interest.

 

Dave Nelson

[erosebud]

Dave Nelson's observation about the other four-page article with a brand "endorsement" prompted some further reflection on my reaction to Tony's piece.  I now think that the deeper cause of my reaction was a naive, not to say childish, disappointment in the article compared to what I expected on the basis of the front cover.  I'm not suggesting that my expectations were rational or defensible, just that I had some--in particular, I thought that Tony would introduce some technique, some short cut, some Better Method.  I couldn't imagine what it might be, which is why I turned right to it.  That's what Tony, or at least Neil (or whoever) was after, and bravo to them. 

My other hobby is photography, and I have long subscribed to a British photo magazine because it has a very high ratio of articles about technique to items about products available for purchase.  Photo magazines from the U.S., on the other hand, all too often say in effect that if you want a particular result you need a particular piece of equipment (not necessarily a particular brand, but still).  That, I think, is what was in the back of my mind as I looked at Tony's article:  the speed and simplicity he was after came because of what is obviously a very useful, possibly one-of-a-kind, product.  Nobody suggested anything different, but I think I expected something on the order of the introduction of the L-girder or the use of flywheels or gleaming; that's how high Tony seems to have set the bar in my mind, I guess, when in fact he's just what he often says he is, another learner like the rest of us.

I'll still prefer "Do this for better results" items over "Use this for better results" items, I suspect, but I'll continue to appreciate specific recommendations based on actual use, as who would not?  And I'll try to keep my expectations more modest no matter what's on the front cover.

[rrinker]

 Given that the method produces a weathered loco in slightly over 7 minutes with no spray cans, airbrush, or attendent accessories like spray booth, I think it DOES introduce a new technique. The key point seems to be that this brand of chalk powders goes on and stays on without the usual additional coat of fixative over top like you normally do with 'traditional' weathering powders.

 Yes, as stated, Cody 'cheated' and broke out an airbrush to do the running gear on his sample, but Tony's photos show it done the way he intended, no equipment other than the powders and some applicators.

                --Randy

[JimValle]

This thread wandered all over the place but I've noticed hat nobody challenged the actual weathering philosophy of Tony Koester and also John Prike whose generic diagram was used in addition to Tony's Berkshires.  I believe both men use too much rust on the drivers and running gear and they also streak it down the sides of the tender.  Any engine that showed that much rust would have to be out of service in a deadline or a county fairgrounds exhibit.  In service a steam engine usually showed white grime staining the drivers and bottom of the tender which resulted in the engine's grinding up sand used for traction.  The top of the boiler, cab roof and tender deck exhibited soot belched up by the stack and distributed along the engine by the slipstream.  A light patina of rust might be seen on the firebox sides and the smoke box caused by heat oxidization.  Streaks of white grime running down the boiler sides from the safety pops or valve stems are appropriate due to hard water minerals.   That's three basic colors, Floquil's grime, grimy black and rust or their equivalents, applied with an airbrush and no worries about fingerprints afterwards!

[rrinker]

 I don;t think Tony's loco is overweathered at all - Cody's on the other hand, is way overdone on the drivers. I wouldn;t see the driver centers being that light from sand and grime, and in fact if you look at the prototype picture of the IC 2-9-0 that Cody worked from, it isn't anywhere near what the loco on the cover looks like. The diagram below the prototype picture, which follows the older diagram by John Pryke, shows way too much blending in - areas that are NOT actually weathered identically are shown as such in the diagram, primarily in the undercarriage area. Working from that instead of the photo could explain the result.

                  --Randy

[NevinW]

I didn't have a problem with the article and I found it useful.  If a particular product does something new or is superior to the previous technique I don't have a problem with them saying the product by name.  I don't think it is a conflict of interest.  Will refer to it when I do some weathering on my locomotives although I agree they might be a touch over done.  

[dknelson]

JimValle

This thread wandered all over the place but I've noticed hat nobody challenged the actual weathering philosophy of Tony Koester and also John Prike whose generic diagram was used in addition to Tony's Berkshires.  I believe both men use too much rust on the drivers and running gear and they also streak it down the sides of the tender.  Any engine that showed that much rust would have to be out of service in a deadline or a county fairgrounds exhibit.  

I have seen photos of CB&Q Northerns in sugar beet service that had rather rusted drivers, smokeboxes, and fireboxes, due to being in storage for a year or more before the annual beet rush.  And I can recall seeing very streaky tenders on the steam locomotives used in the Great Circus Train to Milwaukee -- the ice cold water in the tender was reacting to the stifling July heat I assume, and a variety of shades would cling to the damp side surface of the tender from the brown of kicked-up sand used by the engine to negotiate the Baraboo Hills to a coating of gray soot to ordinary reddish road grime.

But yeah, John Pryke has always been a very heavy weatherer of his steam locomotives going right back to the 1960s.    I thought Cody overdid it on the drivers of the 2-8-0 or rather his choice of color does not photograph very well.

Dave Nelson

[Guy Papillon]

I have nothing to do with all that fuss. I read the article and I can say it is the very first one that makes me consider weathering my fleet. Much easier than any technique I read about before. I now only need good reference drawings, like those in the articles, for box car, gondola, reefer , flat car and tank car.

i suggest more articles on how to weather those cars with Pan Pastels.

[mononguy63]

Well that article really piqued my curiosity. I'm certainly no weathering pro, but the potential of that stuff is undeniable. I asked Mr. Google to look for a weathering set, and did find some on Amazon.

 

Fifty dollars.

 

I think I'll just stick with my chalks after all.

[alco_fan]

mononguy63

Fifty dollars.

 I think I'll just stick with my chalks after all.

So how much do you pay for chalks and dullcote? Probably about the same.

[floridaflyer]

You can get individual colors at on line stores for a little over $5.00 per color. applicators are a couple bucks. Five colors and a couple applicators should be about $30.00. Tony used a bunch of grey shades, you could get by with less. His color mix included colors from both sets. I agree that $100.00 for both sets is a bit steep. But using a mixture of individual colors would lower the cost a great deal..

[NP2626]

This thread seem to be "Much ado about nothing"!  Most everyone who weathers their rolling stock has their own method for doing so.  If you've been in this hobby awhile, you've probably tried many different methods and stuck with one that you feel you get the best results with.  I'm not above trying other; or, new products if given good reviews by others and would likely try this product, if it weren't for the very steep price. 

The good advice and ideas given in this article is all I need to be convinced (once again) that Model Railroader Magazine has my interests at heart and be very happy that I am a subscriber!

[csxns]

NP2626

happy that I am a subscriber

Sometimes I wonder if Kalmbach cares.

[zstripe]

csxns

NP2626

happy that I am a subscriber

Sometimes I wonder if Kalmbach cares.

I believe they do,,otherwise,they would not have this Forum...You have to remember,,Kalmbach,started,Model Railroader Magazine...And they do monitor,the Forums,for Input..

Cheers, 

Frank

[rrinker]

 Indeed they do monitor the forums - my one and only published letter to the editor came because Andy Sperandeo saw my post here and asked if they could publish it.

                   --Randy

 

[NP2626]

csxns

NP2626

happy that I am a subscriber

Sometimes I wonder if Kalmbach cares.

If a company doesn't care about their customers their competitors will and it is much easier to keep old customers than to get new ones.

Also, I've never seen anything about Kalmbach; or, Model Railroader that would make me think they do not care!

[JeremyB]

At first I was a little skeptical as how decent results could be achieved in only 7 minutes. Also knowing Tony Koesters model approach that they must be worth checking out. I like they way things turned out, my usually weathering mediums include acrylic,oil,weathering powders and chalks. I also use my airbrush for fades and dullcote to seal my work

I was at a art supply store this weekend and saw that they did indded stock panpastels. The earth tone set which included 5 colors was going for $30. So needless to stay I will be sticking with what has worked for me, maybe If they go on sale at some point I might pick them up and try but at the moment I happy with my current process.

[JimValle]

Well, Jeremy B, now that you've mentioned art supply stores, here's a way to get into chalk weathering on the cheap!  Just purchase a selection of ordinary chalk sticks.  The most useful colors are black, white, orange, brown and gray.  Then go to a paint store or big box outfit like Home Depot and buy a selection of el-cheapo natural bristle brushes of different sizes and a few sheets of coarse sandpaper.  Scrub the chalk sticks on the sandpaper to create a powder.  Two different sticks can be blended the same way.  Use the brushes to rub the colors in where you want them and rub hard!  You might have to apply the stuff fairly heavy since a fixative will often fade out a lot of the effect.  Start with cheap pieces of rolling stock until you get some practice. When you start getting good you can go to the expensive pastels and start on your more serious pieces or you can just keep on using cheap, easily found components. I particularly like to scrub the black chalk powder onto the boiler tops of my steamers.  It's the best soot effect ever!  These techniques work on structures too, especially the roofs.

[Lake]

JimValle

Well, Jeremy B, now that you've mentioned art supply stores, here's a way to get into chalk weathering on the cheap!  Just purchase a selection of ordinary chalk sticks.  The most useful colors are black, white, orange, brown and gray.  Then go to a paint store or big box outfit like Home Depot and buy a selection of el-cheapo natural bristle brushes of different sizes and a few sheets of coarse sandpaper.  Scrub the chalk sticks on the sandpaper to create a powder.  Two different sticks can be blended the same way.  Use the brushes to rub the colors in where you want them and rub hard!  You might have to apply the stuff fairly heavy since a fixative will often fade out a lot of the effect.  Start with cheap pieces of rolling stock until you get some practice. When you start getting good you can go to the expensive pastels and start on your more serious pieces or you can just keep on using cheap, easily found components. I particularly like to scrub the black chalk powder onto the boiler tops of my steamers.  It's the best soot effect ever!  These techniques work on structures too, especially the roofs.

Jim, I have to agree with you. This is the way I have done it, and the good news is, that if you do not like the outcome then wash the chalk off and redo it until you are happy with the look. Then one can coat it or not. I tend to not coat the chalks and it works for me.

[bolter9]

Articles like this are exactly why I buy Model Railroader. Between my family and career, I have limited time for my railroad. Anything that helps save time while still achieving a high standard, is a welcome tip.