ATLANTIC CENTRALJust this, half the Athearn RTR line is EXACTLY the same as the blue box kits they came from (except for better paint jos), and adjusted for inflation they are priced at almost exactly what Athearn sold them for as RTR cars in the early 1960's. I've done the math in a dozen other threads, i'm not repeating it here.
Actually all that adjusting and comparison means nothing..We are living in 2013 and paying today's prices just like we did back then.
What needs to be "adjusted" about that?
Modelers complain about high prices back then too.
I recall the flap when MR went from 50 cents to 60 cents and like today some quit buying or subscribing to MR because of the increase price.Sound familiar?
Each decade has seen improvements along with price increases..Nothing new this decade will see more improvements with price increases.
However,the price balloon will burst and the fallout aftermath may spell doom for some of the weaker manufacturers.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
How many 5 packs are you guys planning on buying?
None, but not because of the price. I'm not interested in any piece of equipment that represents a prototype built later than about 1954. As I recall, Sheldon won't have anything to do with them for the same reason.
Now a 5 pack of these : http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/45532.htm is a different story. Admittedly, the MSRP ($32.95) is a bit lower than for the Bethgons, but they're still well above $30/car. These: http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/redcaboose/html/RR-39003.htm are more comparable in price at $39.95/ea.
I wouldn't buy one of these either: http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/ccs/html/ccs1301.htm, but again not because of the price. The C40-4 cabooses date from 1961. Now a C30-4, C30-5 or C30-6 with the proper paint scheme and graphics, sure.
Andre
Andre,I agree..If I was modeling the 50s I would need several PFE reefers..
I won't be buying any Bethgons either..I don't need 'em..
richhotrainMark, your reply seems somewhat disingenuous. If you can deliver all of the details and more in RTR form, then why do you need a kit. ... Rich
Rich
Some of us want kits because we enjoy assembling them. And the more recent discontinued plastic kits use the exact same parts as the RTR version. I don't want to pay for someone else to build kits for me, which is essentially what's happening. I want to do it myself, both for the fun of it and because the kits are (were) cheaper than the RTR stuff.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
BruntonSome of us want kits because we enjoy assembling them.
Mark,Odd thing that..As much as I like RTR cars I got this-not to sure what to call it-where I can't get enough MDC modern (74-80) boxcars..In fact I just picked 5 kits up off e-Bay at very reasonable price with free shipping.
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And the more recent discontinued plastic kits use the exact same parts as the RTR version.
Now stepping out and into the danger zone while switching cars I couldn't tell my old MDC boxcars from my newer Athearn supped up RTR ex MDC boxcars.
What's wrong with that picture or is my eyesight going downgrade at ninety miles per hour?
BRAKIEAnd the more recent discontinued plastic kits use the exact same parts as the RTR version
Russell
Russell,I was answering Mark's comment.That's ok though.
The newer cars also have metal stirrups that has the tenancy to fall off due to the lack of glue.A easy fix like I mention.I have 39 or 40 of these supped up ex MDC boxcars and like 'em all.
I will say those 5 MDC kits cost me less then 3 RTR Athearn ex MDC boxcars in the same road name on e-Bay..
You will recall I have often mention I have a thing about boxcars..
I dunno..I just like boxcars.
So is all thins complaining going to drop the prices?
The MFGs are reading this Thread and saying -
Well I guess it is time to RAISE the prices again - the complaining is only 5 pages LONG! ;-)
BOB H - Clarion, PA
BRAKIEmetal stirrups that has the tenancy to fall off due to the lack of glue
Brunton richhotrainMark, your reply seems somewhat disingenuous. If you can deliver all of the details and more in RTR form, then why do you need a kit. ... RichHm. I wonder if you know the meaning of the word "disingenuous." I hope not, because if you do you're apparently being intentionally offensive.
Mark, sorry, no intent to be intentionally offensive. The word has more than one meaning, and I chose the extended meaning relating to less reproachable behavior. But, perhaps, a better choice of words would have been incongruous.
Alton Junction
Russell,Maybe I should have said some? I've had several to fall off on these boxcars:5347,5277s,and the 5344..
The last three I purchase had at least one step laying in the car's tray.One(LVRC) had two.
Again its a very easy fix.
I often wonder how many people that complain about the high cost of things have ever been in business for themselves. Ask someone that has only ever been an employee what it cost to run a business and they may be able to tell you some of the cost, but most are clueless.
It's like when someone drives a hundred miles to a train show and complains admission went up $.50 this year. They'll complain about the increase in admission along with the cost of gas it took to get there and state they won't be going to any more train shows. So they spend $25.00 in gas and an extra 50 cents to the $4.00 admission to get in. That's laughable! They don't have a clue of the real cost of moving their vehicle to and from the train show. The true cost is probably in the neighbourhood of $75.00.
When I worked for the federal Government we had huge a book that had the cost of operating every kind of vehicle imaginable. It made us choose the best vehicle for the job very carefully when purchasing. It also made us very aware of how much each trip cost. A good rule of thumb was, the true cost of moving a vehicle down the road is three times the fuel bill. I don't have to drive far before it is cheaper for the nearest hobby store to pop something in the mail to me. But then I wouldn't get to BS with the staff, and that can be worth the price of the trip.
MRR companies do have to compete. Like any other business it is a balancing act as to whether they will succeed or fail.
They have the freedom to charge whatever they wish, and we have the freedom to go out and make more money. So let's stop whining.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
First Athearn Never has ready to run in stock their genisis line it seems they are emphasizing on. Kind of ires me not all of us can spend 150 Plus on a loco. The bethgons OMG for 5 cars!!!! no thank you. Ill keep getting blue box kits at shows and ebay. I do miss the BB locos though i think the drives on the ready to run are not as Robust as the blue box. I do have 1 ready to run loco just had to have Iowa Interstate 711.
keithh9824I do miss the BB locos though i think the drives on the ready to run are not as Robust as the blue box.
Most are ok..My beloved GATX GP38-2 started whining..The flywheel came loose on the cab end..A easy fix and all is smiles again. However,of late I been preferring older P2K,Atlas yellow and red box locomotives since Athearn seems to be upgrading some of their more popular RTR locomotives to Genesis..I won't play their game.
My point: Production values and productivity have made great leaps in the past 50 years. I expect my inflation-adjusted money to buy a LOT more than it did back then. So what-your-money-bought-then comparisons are of very limited utility, because NO amount of money would buy you a lot of what we have now (DCC, for one obvious example).
You're forgetting something. The MR market for HO was a lot more homogeneous then than it is now. It's fragmented into a lot of mini-markets (micro-markets, actually), markets that wouldn't have been served at all 50 years ago. You couldn't get a Maine Central GP7 50 years ago, let alone be able to get 4 separate road numbers. However, Athearn's got some, in stock according to their site http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=gp7loco+ATHG&CatID=THLD&RN=MEC . They've also done MEC F3's, both in the orginal B&M inspired maroon and gold as well as the later green and gold. How many people model the Maine Central and in the time period when you could see those engines painted like that? Certainly not a large target market, but somehow it's being served.
You are getting more for your money in the incredible variety of product that's being offered in an amazing variety of variants. Of course, what the fragmentation of a previously relatively homogeneous market has meant is that production has to batched and production runs have to be relatively small to serve any given micro-market at any given time. There isn't any other way to do it given the relatively small overall market (HO in this case) and the variety of mini/micro-markets.
If you don't understand the concept of a mini/micro market, I'll give you an example. Joe Fugate and I are both SP fans. Same market, right? Wrong. Joe's interested in the SP in the 1980's and I'm interested in the SP for the period roughly between 1947 and 1954. This pretty much means we're in two separate markets for major items like locomotives and rolling stock. Amazingly, Athearn can actually sell stuff to the both of us, but the items will be totally different because we're in two distinct markets. In many respects, I have more in common with someone modeling the NYC in the early 50's than I have with a fellow SP fan who happens to go for tunnel motors painted gray and red whereas I prefer Black Widow,Tiger Stripe and steam power.
I'd love it if all the manufacturers were 1947-1954 SP all the time. I know probably 5 or 6 people who would agree with me and 1 who would grimace a bit, but bear it since he's going to be building a layout depicting the area between Gilroy and Salinas (including the Monterey Branch) as it was in 1943. Of course, backdating to 1943 means getting rid of his diesel power, making sure that the steam locomotives are lettered Southern Pacific Lines rather than Southern Pacific and that the lettering is smaller. He's also going to need to gear his motive power more to 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's and light 4-6-2's which are, unfortunately, only really available in brass.
RTR rolling stock prices are absolutely outrageous. When the same car as a $10 kit costs $30 RTR and the assembly labor is getting one or two bucks an hour, somebody in the chain between manufacturer and customer is cleaning up on these RTR prices.
Where are you finding $10 kits? According to the Atlas site, the former Branchline series of kits are going for around $16/ea unless they're undecorated, in which case they're a buck cheaper. As far as the Athearn RTR equipment based on the old BB kits, the painting and graphics are light years ahead of what was available when the BB kits were still being made.
In 1957, I bought an Athearn ATSF caboose kit for $1.98. In 2008, just out of pure nostalgia, I bought the RTR version for $18.98. The $1.98 in 1957 was the equivalent of $15.17 in 2008 dollars. The painting and graphics alone as far as I'm concerned justify the higher relative price (we'll forget about the crappy 1957 trucks with the rubber "spring" inserts, plastic wheels and those abysmal X2F couplers).
It just boggles my mind that people think there are enormous profits to be made in the MR business. Apparently, it's never occurred to anyone that MSRP's may be inflated not so much to make a huge profit, but to allow for retailers to discount 20 to 30% from inflated MSRP's back to where the bloody things would actually sell if people weren't so hell-bent on convincing themselves they're getting a bargain. If Athearn lowered MSRP's by 20% across the board, would people be then willing to pay MSRP? Nope. They'd want an additional 15-20% off. Even if Athearn (or anyone else) were selling items below the cost of production, there'd be people insisting on discounts and complaining about prices.
BRAKIE Russell,Maybe I should have said some? I've had several to fall off on these boxcars:5347,5277s,and the 5344.. The last three I purchase had at least one step laying in the car's tray.One(LVRC) had two. Again its a very easy fix.
This is the new definition of a "KIT."
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
When I started this thread, I did not mention anything about price or profits or RTR etc. All I wanted was the items to be in stock at Walther's when they are in stock at the manufacturer and one of the items has been on back order for over a year. I want to support my LHS by ordering these parts through the LHS but Walther's for whatever reason will not order these parts from Cal-Scale or Accurail even though they are on B/O.
If I ran a business and somebody ordered something I did not have I would be busting my buns to get that ordered to have a happy customer.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
dti406 If I ran a business and somebody ordered something I did not have I would be busting my buns to get that ordered to have a happy customer.
No you wouldn't. I really understand your desire to support your LHS. But somewhere along the way you need to starting thinking about how much money and effort it would take for either Walthers or your LHS to order that item (or items) you want from Calscale or Accurail. Do you think that Walthers would remain in business if they dropped whatever they are doing to generate the paperwork to place an order for your item from Bowser, pay for someone to receive it and re-ship it to your LHS, and then pay someone else to bill the LHS?
Same thing with the LHS. Someone has to generate an order with Bowser. If they don't have an account, they have to establish one. Then they have all the same paperwork as Walthers.
I don't know how Walthers operates, but I suspect that someone keeps track of inventory as well as how often items in inventory turn over. I don't know what particular items you are looking for, but if it is something that they haven't had any call for why would anyone expect them to have that item, plus every other item Bowser sells, on a shelf waiting hopefully for someone to order?
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Paper work? What decade are you living in? My LHS does his ordering by computer just like I do when I order things.
Most full service hobby shops already has a account with the major players-it just good business sense---if the shop wishes to stay in business.. .
Besides..Did you know Accurail,Bowser and Cal Scale is carried by Walthers along with hundreds of other manufacturers?
http://www.walthers.com/exec/manulist
Walthers is no small time outfit..They have order pickers that fills the orders from shops,their on line and catalog sales.That's what Walthers does..
Did you know Walthers also carries railroad DVDs? HO Slot Cars?
BRAKIE No you wouldn't. I really understand your desire to support your LHS. But somewhere along the way you need to starting thinking about how much money and effort it would take for either Walthers or your LHS to order that item (or items) you want from Calscale or Accurail. Do you think that Walthers would remain in business if they dropped whatever they are doing to generate the paperwork to place an order for your item from Bowser, pay for someone to receive it and re-ship it to your LHS, and then pay someone else to bill the LHS? ------------------------------ Paper work? What decade are you living in? My LHS does his ordering by computer just like I do when I order things. Most full service hobby shops already has a account with the major players-it just good business sense---if the shop wishes to stay in business.. . Besides..Did you know Accurail,Bowser and Cal Scale is carried by Walthers along with hundreds of other manufacturers? http://www.walthers.com/exec/manulist Walthers is no small time outfit..They have order pickers that fills the orders from shops,their on line and catalog sales.That's what Walthers does.. Did you know Walthers also carries railroad DVDs? HO Slot Cars?
dti406 When I started this thread, I did not mention anything about price or profits or RTR etc. All I wanted was the items to be in stock at Walther's when they are in stock at the manufacturer and one of the items has been on back order for over a year.
When I started this thread, I did not mention anything about price or profits or RTR etc. All I wanted was the items to be in stock at Walther's when they are in stock at the manufacturer and one of the items has been on back order for over a year.
It's called a conversation. The forum is like any conversation. Someone starts it, others join in by responding. In the process, other issues are raised as part of the conversation.
If the rules of the forum required that all replies strictly hold to the original question, it was fully answered within the first four replies and should have been locked at that point.
maxman BRAKIE No you wouldn't. I really understand your desire to support your LHS. But somewhere along the way you need to starting thinking about how much money and effort it would take for either Walthers or your LHS to order that item (or items) you want from Calscale or Accurail. Do you think that Walthers would remain in business if they dropped whatever they are doing to generate the paperwork to place an order for your item from Bowser, pay for someone to receive it and re-ship it to your LHS, and then pay someone else to bill the LHS? ------------------------------ Paper work? What decade are you living in? My LHS does his ordering by computer just like I do when I order things. Most full service hobby shops already has a account with the major players-it just good business sense---if the shop wishes to stay in business.. . Besides..Did you know Accurail,Bowser and Cal Scale is carried by Walthers along with hundreds of other manufacturers? http://www.walthers.com/exec/manulist Walthers is no small time outfit..They have order pickers that fills the orders from shops,their on line and catalog sales.That's what Walthers does.. Did you know Walthers also carries railroad DVDs? HO Slot Cars? Obviously you mis-understood what I said. First off, I live in this century where margins are a lot less than what they used to be. And with slim margins, it stands to reason that any business owner who wishes to remain in business is going to apply his resources in a manner that brings him the most return for his effort. And if that means that he is going to cater to a certain portion of his potential clientele, and only stock that which he can readily turn over, I guess I have to live with that. I don't expect anyone to jump through hoops waiting for me to order that Calscale blowdown valve assembly that hasn't been sold by that shop for the past ten years, if ever. Secondly, I'm well aware of what Walthers lists in their catalog. And yes, I understand that they have pickers and grinners. They also have someone in charge of inventory. That person is not going to have his job for very long if he orders/stocks every item in the Calscale catalog waiting for Mr. OP to place an order for a single part. Now if Mr. OP were to order 25 different parts in quantity, and ordered on a weekly basis, then I believe that would be a different story. Third, exactly which companies are you considering "major players"? Would you consider Evergreen Scale Models a major player? I would, at least if I wanted plastic. However, as I stated in a previous post, when Mr. LHS was willing to order directly from them for items not ordinarily carried by his distributors he had to prove to them that he actually had a brick and mortar establishment. I don't know exactly what this involved, but I suspect it was more than a ten minute operation. Finally, I know a little about "providing good service", and what that entails. I worked for a portion of one of the conglomerates. One of my jobs along the way was to process part orders. Sometimes my customers would call looking for obscure things that had once been supplied by us, but were now supplied by another portion of the company. I would go out of my way to track down what they were looking for. Made them very happy. But those parts did not bring in any profit to the people who were paying me, plus it diluted the time I should have been spending doing what I was being paid for.
I understood what you said..Walthers survives by service and pays employees to do that picking and packing as well as having a accounts payable section..Even Evergreen has a on line ordering department as does Atlas and every major player you can think of..Even the small Mom & Pop operations will pick and pack orders.
A hobby shop isn't a corporation its a small business that survives or fails on service-fail to keep your customer satisfied he will go elsewhere or order it his self and that means another lost sale.Its that simple.
Even your customers will go to your competitor in order to get their items-your company will loose money with each lost sale and a red bottom line means layoffs or closure.No company or hobby shop can survive on red ink-every sale counts toward the bottom line not just the big orders..
I ordered 15 building kits last week from my LHS. I hope they won't be back ordered.
dti406 When I started this thread, I did not mention anything about price or profits or RTR etc. All I wanted was the items to be in stock at Walther's when they are in stock at the manufacturer and one of the items has been on back order for over a year. I want to support my LHS by ordering these parts through the LHS but Walther's for whatever reason will not order these parts from Cal-Scale or Accurail even though they are on B/O. If I ran a business and somebody ordered something I did not have I would be busting my buns to get that ordered to have a happy customer. Rick J
Rick, As everyone as explained at great length and detail, if your LHS is unwilling to get those items then you need a better LHS or need to be willing to call up Bowser and get them yourself.
I have read some really crazy replies in this thread, and while I understand the business practices of inventory management that some are explaining, that stuff still defies common sense in this case - this is not Sears or WalMart.
Ordering from Bowser is easy for your LHS, and if they don't have an account, Bowser will take their credit card - many small businesses do business that way today with vendors they only use on occasion.
Point still remains, it is clear from their actions that Walthers is not interested in supplying your LHS, and possibly that your LHS is not real interested in supplying you - I would shop elsewhere.
Pick up the phone, order what you need direct from Bowser, and let Walthers and your LHS miss out on the sale. Bowser will make ALL the profit, insuring that they are able to sell you the next batch of parts you need.
Sheldon
dti406 A while back I ordered some Cal-Scale and Accurail parts for some projects I am working on from my LHS to get through Walther's. They all come back as Back Ordered! I go on Bowser's website and the Cal-Scale parts I want are in stock, I go on Accurail's website and the parts I want are in stock. Remember I ordered one of these parts over a year ago and the other about 6 months ago. I sent an E-mail to Walther's and they answer that they cannot get the parts from the suppliers. I want to support my LHS but Walther's makes that impossible what can we as consumers do to rectify this situation? Rick J
A while back I ordered some Cal-Scale and Accurail parts for some projects I am working on from my LHS to get through Walther's. They all come back as Back Ordered!
I go on Bowser's website and the Cal-Scale parts I want are in stock, I go on Accurail's website and the parts I want are in stock. Remember I ordered one of these parts over a year ago and the other about 6 months ago.
I sent an E-mail to Walther's and they answer that they cannot get the parts from the suppliers.
I want to support my LHS but Walther's makes that impossible what can we as consumers do to rectify this situation?
This might explain why I have the Atlas rubbish containers, but still don't have the container flat cars
to put them on.
Both where ordered together a considerable time ago at my local hobby shop
regards John
Sheldon,
My LHS owner told me to order direct, and has no problems with that. He does not have an account at Bowser although he does at a lot of other suppliers. He has always done a good job in getting me the parts and stuff I need.
Amazingly enough most of his customers are N Scaler's and he does a brisk business in selling Lionel and doing Lionel repairs. HO scaler's are a minor business percentage of his and I appreciate his efforts on my behalf, and he is only about 5 miles from my house. All the other LHS's are much further away.
Walter's calls him every Wed to let him know what back orders are shipping and if he needs anything else. So the Walther's sales people are not the problem it is the Inventory Managers.
dti406My LHS owner told me to order direct, and has no problems with that. He does not have an account at Bowser although he does at a lot of other suppliers. He has always done a good job in getting me the parts and stuff I need.
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Walthers carries Bowser and Cal Scale..Couldn't he just add the needed items on his next Walthers order?
Now for the record if that was my shop I would have a account with Bowser since they're a major player.
I am coming in late on this discussion so I read the first and last page of posts. It's interesting how our discussions manage to take turns from the original topic posed by the OP - and I am not complaining - just making an observation.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
HaroldA I am coming in late on this discussion so I read the first and last page of posts. It's interesting how our discussions manage to take turns from the original topic posed by the OP - and I am not complaining - just making an observation.
That is the definition of a discussion, or a conversation for that matter.