ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Oh, never mind, what a silly idea that a retail business would actually have products on hand for people to actually buy when they walked in the door. Therein lies the problem with most LHSs today. I always call before spending 30 minutes driving to one because they rarely have in stock what I am after. Rich Rich, don't you see the catch 22 here? They can't have stuff in stock if they are not making a reasonable margin - but everybody wants 40% off - 40% is the normal wholesale discount off MSRP!
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Oh, never mind, what a silly idea that a retail business would actually have products on hand for people to actually buy when they walked in the door. Therein lies the problem with most LHSs today. I always call before spending 30 minutes driving to one because they rarely have in stock what I am after. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Oh, never mind, what a silly idea that a retail business would actually have products on hand for people to actually buy when they walked in the door.
Oh, never mind, what a silly idea that a retail business would actually have products on hand for people to actually buy when they walked in the door.
Therein lies the problem with most LHSs today. I always call before spending 30 minutes driving to one because they rarely have in stock what I am after.
Rich
Rich, don't you see the catch 22 here? They can't have stuff in stock if they are not making a reasonable margin - but everybody wants 40% off - 40% is the normal wholesale discount off MSRP!
Sheldon, here's the thing.
I could care less if the LHS stocks locos with this, that, and every other road name, or rolling stock for that matter. And, quite frankly, I don't even care if I get a 20 percent discount or not. As long as the LHS has what I need, on the shelf. But, nowadays, even if I can find a LHS, it may or may not have flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, decoders, you name it. You call, they don't have it in stock, but they can get it by the end of the week. But, I need it now. That, to me, is the problem with the LHS, not the discount or the variety of road names on locos and rolling stock.
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I know you think these guys are a bunch of robber Barrens getting this stuff from China at 5 cents on the dollar, but it simply is not true. The retail prices are not just "made up" out of thin air, they are based on centuries old business formulas that work, and they allow for the "distributor" and the retailer to make a fair profit along with the manufacturer.
I know you think these guys are a bunch of robber Barrens getting this stuff from China at 5 cents on the dollar, but it simply is not true. The retail prices are not just "made up" out of thin air, they are based on centuries old business formulas that work, and they allow for the "distributor" and the retailer to make a fair profit along with the manufacturer.
No, I don't think that at all. What I do think is that the Chinese aren't producing it any cheaper than it would cost to produce it here, all things considered.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Oh, never mind, what a silly idea that a retail business would actually have products on hand for people to actually buy when they walked in the door. Therein lies the problem with most LHSs today. I always call before spending 30 minutes driving to one because they rarely have in stock what I am after. Rich Rich, don't you see the catch 22 here? They can't have stuff in stock if they are not making a reasonable margin - but everybody wants 40% off - 40% is the normal wholesale discount off MSRP! Sheldon, here's the thing. I could care less if the LHS stocks locos with this, that, and every other road name, or rolling stock for that matter. And, quite frankly, I don't even care if I get a 20 percent discount or not. As long as the LHS has what I need, on the shelf. But, nowadays, even if I can find a LHS, it may or may not have flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, decoders, you name it. You call, they don't have it in stock, but they can get it by the end of the week. But, I need it now. That, to me, is the problem with the LHS, not the discount or the variety of road names on locos and rolling stock. Rich
That's the problem Rich. A local hobby shop can not stay in business just selling flex track, decoders and ground cover - even as MSRP.
They need to sell those locos, and cars, and structure kits so that their TOTAL DOLLAR VOLUME is high enough to generate enough revenue to pay the rent, help, light bill, etc. And they need to do that at a suitable mark up - not 10-20%
As for the China thing, the way international money policy is going, before long you may be right, it may be just as cheap to do it here. It would be now if we did not live in the land of ridiculous government regulation.......
Sheldon
I've been buying parts for several years now as I come across any that I think I may use in the future. Being in S scale parts are hard to find anyway, so when I do, I generally buy some. While I probably won't use everything I buy, I probably won't be able to get it later. Things that are harder to scratchbuild like trucks and couplers I stockpile. When I find them at a good price, like a dealer getting out of S, I also pick up kits and RTR.
Frankly, around where I live you can't find many parts in any scale. The LHS closest to me is mainly 3 rail O gauge as is the next closest. There are a couple of Hobbytowns about 30 miles away each, but they have small train sections.
Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Oh, never mind, what a silly idea that a retail business would actually have products on hand for people to actually buy when they walked in the door. Therein lies the problem with most LHSs today. I always call before spending 30 minutes driving to one because they rarely have in stock what I am after. Rich Rich, don't you see the catch 22 here? They can't have stuff in stock if they are not making a reasonable margin - but everybody wants 40% off - 40% is the normal wholesale discount off MSRP! Sheldon, here's the thing. I could care less if the LHS stocks locos with this, that, and every other road name, or rolling stock for that matter. And, quite frankly, I don't even care if I get a 20 percent discount or not. As long as the LHS has what I need, on the shelf. But, nowadays, even if I can find a LHS, it may or may not have flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, decoders, you name it. You call, they don't have it in stock, but they can get it by the end of the week. But, I need it now. That, to me, is the problem with the LHS, not the discount or the variety of road names on locos and rolling stock. Rich That's the problem Rich. A local hobby shop can not stay in business just selling flex track, decoders and ground cover - even as MSRP. They need to sell those locos, and cars, and structure kits so that their TOTAL DOLLAR VOLUME is high enough to generate enough revenue to pay the rent, help, light bill, etc. And they need to do that at a suitable mark up - not 10-20%
Sheldon, what I'm saying is that it is getting more and more difficult to find a LHS with stuff like flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, and decoders in stock. No wonder the LHS is a dying breed, they don't stock what I need and they cannot sell what I don't need. And, I don't think that I am alone in this regard.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe retail prices are not just "made up" out of thin air, they are based on centuries old business formulas that work, and they allow for the "distributor" and the retailer to make a fair profit along with the manufacturer. The only way to lower prices is to cut costs - one of those cost cuts is do away with the distributor and split his profit between a discount for the customer and the rest to cover the retailers increased cash requirements to buy larger quantities and deal with more separate suppliers - i.e. individual manufacturers.
Allow me to play the devil's advocate here.
Exactly how many locomotives and cars to they get out of a ton of material? How much do they pay for a Gaylord filled with motors and one filled wheels?
Down deep I don't think any of us wants to know.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRALThe retail prices are not just "made up" out of thin air, they are based on centuries old business formulas that work, and they allow for the "distributor" and the retailer to make a fair profit along with the manufacturer. The only way to lower prices is to cut costs - one of those cost cuts is do away with the distributor and split his profit between a discount for the customer and the rest to cover the retailers increased cash requirements to buy larger quantities and deal with more separate suppliers - i.e. individual manufacturers. Allow me to play the devil's advocate here. Exactly how many locomotives and cars to they get out of a ton of material? How much do they pay for a Gaylord filled with motors and one filled wheels? Down deep I don't think any of us wants to know.
Larry, the cost making and selling anything is way more than the cost of raw materials or even subcontracted parts.
I sell simple garden tractor headlight lenses on Ebay. My "overhead", that is shipping, packing, Ebay fees, Instruction printing, etc is as much as my hard production cost for each lens. So yes, my sales price is more than several multiples of my hard production cost.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Oh, never mind, what a silly idea that a retail business would actually have products on hand for people to actually buy when they walked in the door. Therein lies the problem with most LHSs today. I always call before spending 30 minutes driving to one because they rarely have in stock what I am after. Rich Rich, don't you see the catch 22 here? They can't have stuff in stock if they are not making a reasonable margin - but everybody wants 40% off - 40% is the normal wholesale discount off MSRP! Sheldon, here's the thing. I could care less if the LHS stocks locos with this, that, and every other road name, or rolling stock for that matter. And, quite frankly, I don't even care if I get a 20 percent discount or not. As long as the LHS has what I need, on the shelf. But, nowadays, even if I can find a LHS, it may or may not have flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, decoders, you name it. You call, they don't have it in stock, but they can get it by the end of the week. But, I need it now. That, to me, is the problem with the LHS, not the discount or the variety of road names on locos and rolling stock. Rich That's the problem Rich. A local hobby shop can not stay in business just selling flex track, decoders and ground cover - even as MSRP. They need to sell those locos, and cars, and structure kits so that their TOTAL DOLLAR VOLUME is high enough to generate enough revenue to pay the rent, help, light bill, etc. And they need to do that at a suitable mark up - not 10-20% Sheldon, what I'm saying is that it is getting more and more difficult to find a LHS with stuff like flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, and decoders in stock. No wonder the LHS is a dying breed, they don't stock what I need and they cannot sell what I don't need. And, I don't think that I am alone in this regard. Rich
I understand, but you don't seem to want to understand why and how it got this way.
And nobody is a bigger believer in stores having inventory than me. Inventory was my key to success selling MATCO tools, it was our key to success when I worked in the hobby shop. Inventory takes money.
I will renew my offer made last year - who wants to pitch in a million dollars? If I can get ten of you, or maybe twenty would be better, I will open and run that train store that has great prices and everything in stock. And it will make money. But it will take ten years to both show a profit and give everyone their million back. But in the mean time, we would pay dividends on that investment.
More than you can make in the bank - yes, more than you can make in the stock market - maybe, maybe not, risk - no worse than the stock market.
You guys,,,,are going to have to keep your,comments,smaller,,,we are running out of paper and we don't have more,,''in stock'',,,,,,,LOL..
Cheers,,,''Happy Fourth to All''
Frank
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Sheldon, what I'm saying is that it is getting more and more difficult to find a LHS with stuff like flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, and decoders in stock. No wonder the LHS is a dying breed, they don't stock what I need and they cannot sell what I don't need. And, I don't think that I am alone in this regard. I understand, but you don't seem to want to understand why and how it got this way.
richhotrain Sheldon, what I'm saying is that it is getting more and more difficult to find a LHS with stuff like flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, and decoders in stock. No wonder the LHS is a dying breed, they don't stock what I need and they cannot sell what I don't need. And, I don't think that I am alone in this regard.
Who cares why or how it got this way.
They ain't got what I want when I need it.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Sheldon, what I'm saying is that it is getting more and more difficult to find a LHS with stuff like flex track, turnouts, ground cover, paint, and decoders in stock. No wonder the LHS is a dying breed, they don't stock what I need and they cannot sell what I don't need. And, I don't think that I am alone in this regard. I understand, but you don't seem to want to understand why and how it got this way. Who cares why or how it got this way. They ain't got what I want when I need it. Rich
So did you say you were interested in putting two or three of those shares? Remember, the stock holders will get everything at cost.
Sheldon, the check is in the mail.
I got you completely covered, man.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, the cost making and selling anything is way more than the cost of raw materials or even subcontracted parts.
If the production cost was up there like we think that $34.95 boxcar would cost $99.95.I know that much.
A ton of material must turn out a lot of shells,car bodies etc made by one or two machine operator(s).A computerized machine probably paints the cars while another silk screens the road names and data.Might be done by one man monitoring the computers.
I suspect the real labor cost would be in the final assembly line.
I would love to watch a car made from raw material to finish.
BRAKIE I would love to watch a car made from raw material to finish.
Larry,
Be prepared,,to do a lot of traveling,,for all the parts that make up a car,or truck,are not made on site,,
Cheers,
A lot of hobby shops won't order through anybody but Walthers. It's as if Tony Soprano is the salesman for Walthers. I'd love to give my money to a LHS (assuming I had one, which I don't) to support both him and the local business community, regardless of slightly higher prices, but if they can't or won't order something, then it's time to take the bull by the horns.
If the manufacturer's web page shows an item in stock, give them a phone call and find out what the problem is. I've done that lots of times, and the typical response is "all they have to do is order from us." The manufacturers invested the money to make something, and they don't get their money back and make a profit unless whatever it is that they have on their shelves sells. Every manufacturer (except one, who now has a full on-line store) that I ever contacted like this has told me that if I wanted to pay full retail and pay the shipping that they would sell direct to me.
In a city where I used to live, when I got ornery and demanded answers as to why my orders at the full-line (R/C, plastics, trains) LHS never arrived, I was told that the manager, who was an R/C enthusiast, was cancelling my orders in order that he could "make his budget." This was in spite of the fact that I always paid cash, and never stood them up on an order.
If you tried to go through your LHS first, and they can't or won't get something for you, it's not your problem if they're upset about you going elsewhere. They should have done something about it. Business is competitive, not fair.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, the cost making and selling anything is way more than the cost of raw materials or even subcontracted parts. If the production cost was up there like we think that $34.95 boxcar would cost $99.95.I know that much. A ton of material must turn out a lot of shells,car bodies etc made by one or two machine operator(s).A computerized machine probably paints the cars while another silk screens the road names and data.Might be done by one man monitoring the computers. I suspect the real labor cost would be in the final assembly line. I would love to watch a car made from raw material to finish.
Think about it like this, take the MSRP, subtract about 60% for the distributor and retail mark ups. That's about what the manufacturer sells it for. Subtract another 10-15% of the MSRP for their net profit. That leaves production cost. Divide that in half, that is the hard cost to produce - no marketing, no shipping, no tooling investment recovery, no distribution costs, etc.
Now, nobody needs to make 60% to run their retail business - but they need to make 30-40% - cut out the distributors 20% and you have the current model for discounted prices.
Obviously these numbers are approximate, and situations do vary, but you might be surprised at how close they are in most cases.
In my work years ago in the electrical trade, I watched all sorts of stuff being manufactured. Autos, machinery, food processing, paint, steel, printing, injection molding (not trains though), and much more. It is very interesting to see how stuff is made.
But getting it to you requires all those other costs.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But getting it to you requires all those other costs. Sheldon
Don't talk to loud you might give them a reason to jack the prices up-naw,they find reasons enough.
I'm shocked at the price of the announced 5 car set of Athearn Bethgons..OUCH! (scream intended).
Boycott Walthers.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
rdgk1se3019 Boycott Walthers.
Let's face it, Walthers sucks.
I spent $500 buying an 8-car set of Walthers Santa Fe Super Chief cars new on eBay. One of the cars was missing a package of grab irons which Walthers should have installed at the factory for the outrageous price per car. So, I email Walthers and ask them to send me the missing package. They take their sweet time to respond, only to say, send them a check for $10 to cover the cost because an eBay seller is not an authorized dealer. I write back and point out that I am a Walthers Valued Customer. That is someone who has spent an inordinate amount of money buying stuff from them at MSRP. I ask them to make an exception for me as a Walthers Valued Customer. They didn't give me the dignity of a response.
Rich,
I have to agree, Walthers is far from my favorite company in this hobby. In fact, as a percentage of models on my layout, Walthers holds a pretty small slice, with structures being the one place they might have a double digit percentage.
When it comes to rolling stock, I do have 30-40 Walthers freight cars, most of them 75' piggy back flats from way back in the 80's. That's 40 cars out of over 900.
I have only one set of Proto diesels, a set of C&O F7's, since their takeover, I don't see any more new production Proto diesels in my future.
I don't buy the expensive high priced passenger cars - from them or anyone, as recently explained in another thread.
Walthers has long ago lost me as a major customer. And despite the size of their catalog, they are no longer the "force" they once where in this hobby.
And I do believe I am right about their gently moving away from being a "distributor", one day planning to just be Walthers Trains - direct mail order and direct supplier to big retailers.
I agree about their customer service, it was once very good, but as time has passed I have had similar experiences to yours.
I ordered, site unseen, their new Proto F7's undecorated, when they can out several years ago. I was very disappointed that they chose to supply a 'modernized" version of the shell on the undecorated model. I called them to see if I could buy the as built early version of the shell, which they used on a number of the road names offered.
They had no such parts, for sale or as free replacements, even though the parts were listed in the parts list with the locos.
Since this made it impossible for me to build and paint the units correctly for my modeled era, I sold them. That was the last new release Proto product I have bought.
I bought some more Intermoutain F units instead, from my LHS, who ordered them directly from Intermountain - he even put me on the phone while placing the order to make sure we got the right ones - perfect.
So I don't have to boycott Walthers, very little of their stuff is even on my radar.
199.98? Why? Adjusted for inflation, the price 50 years ago would have been $26.77 for the 5 pack or about $5.35/car. That's not bad for cars that are RTR, painted and lettered with trucks (metal RP25 wheels) and couplers. I can remember paying $4.25 for a wooden reefer kit (Ulrich, IIRC) less trucks and couplers in the early 60's which only had the car sides painted and lettered.
50 years ago, you wouldn't have gotten this, either:
• Removable coal load • Factory installed wire grab irons • 100 ton roller bearing trucks • Fully-assembled and ready to run out of the box • Highly-detailed, injection-molded body • Separate wireform grab irons, etched metal coupler platforms, and/or etched metal roofwalks on select models • Separately applied brake wheel • Painted and printed for realistic decoration • Multiple road numbers • Machined metal wheels • Weighted for trouble free operation • Wheels with RP25 contours operate on Code 75, 83, 100 rail • Body mounted McHenry operating scale knuckle couplers • Window packaging for easy viewing plus interior plastic blister safely holds the model for convenient storage
50 years ago (IIRC), Athearn had 3 locomotives, the F7, GP9, and Hustler, having dropped the steam engines they introduced in the late 1950's. As far as freight cars go, they had (again, IIRC), a 40 ft box, 40 ft reefer, a 4 truck flat car something like this: http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH92695 but without the load, a tank car, a gondola, and a caboose (based on ATSF prototype). They may have introduced the 34 ft hoppers about that time, but I'm not sure. Of course, that's only listing freight equipment, as Athearn did make 4 heavyweight passenger cars as well as 4 lightweights, not to mention the RDC and 200 ton crane. Around 1965 or so, the line underwent a significant expansion, but nothing like the explosion of different models that have happened in the last 15 years.
Back in the day, if you got a decorated car kit (or RTR for that matter) for a given roadname, it only came with one number. If you bought a decorated locomotive for any given road (usually SP, ATSF, NYNH&H, Pennsy, or B&O), it only came with one number and in only one version (no variants). How many F unit (F2,F3,F7,F9 and FP7) variations has Athearn done since the introduction of the Genesis units? How many different paint scheme variations even for the same railroad? Just in the GP9 alone and just for SP, Athearn's done freight GP9's as built, the torpedo boat passenger GP9's as built and the freight GP9's as rebuilt under the SP GRIP program. Not only that, they were available with different numbers for each run. Back in 1963, if you wanted an SP GP9, it was numbered 5600 and it only came in Bloody Nose (Athearn dropped Black Widow for a number of years after SP switched paint schemes). That GP9 also didn't have the SP light cluster fore and aft (well actually, 5600 would have had barrel type Gyralights, but you get the point).
Andre
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And I do believe I am right about their gently moving away from being a "distributor", one day planning to just be Walthers Trains - direct mail order and direct supplier to big retailers.
Sheldon, you are probably right.
Andre,
There you go again with all that math and logic.
We have both likely caused many eyes to just roll backwards.................
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Andre, There you go again with all that math and logic. We have both likely caused many eyes to just roll backwards................. Sheldon
andrechapelonAdjusted for inflation, the price 50 years ago would have been $26.77 for the 5 pack or about $5.35/car. ... 50 years ago, you wouldn't have gotten this, either: • Removable coal load • Factory installed wire grab irons • 100 ton roller bearing trucks ... 50 years ago (IIRC), Athearn had 3 locomotives, the F7, GP9, and Hustler, having dropped the steam engines they introduced in the late 1950's. As far as freight cars go, they had (again, IIRC), a 40 ft box, 40 ft reefer, a 4 truck flat car something like this: http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH92695 but without the load, a tank car, a gondola, and a caboose (based on ATSF prototype). ... Andre
...
• Removable coal load • Factory installed wire grab irons • 100 ton roller bearing trucks ...
50 years ago (IIRC), Athearn had 3 locomotives, the F7, GP9, and Hustler, having dropped the steam engines they introduced in the late 1950's. As far as freight cars go, they had (again, IIRC), a 40 ft box, 40 ft reefer, a 4 truck flat car something like this: http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH92695 but without the load, a tank car, a gondola, and a caboose (based on ATSF prototype).
My point: Production values and productivity have made great leaps in the past 50 years. I expect my inflation-adjusted money to buy a LOT more than it did back then. So what-your-money-bought-then comparisons are of very limited utility, because NO amount of money would buy you a lot of what we have now (DCC, for one obvious example).
More generally:
RTR rolling stock prices are absolutely outrageous. When the same car as a $10 kit costs $30 RTR and the assembly labor is getting one or two bucks an hour, somebody in the chain between manufacturer and customer is cleaning up on these RTR prices. Why do you think kits have disappeared from Athearn, Atlas and others? Expanded profits are why! Maybe they lose half their customer base, but if they're making twice the profit from that smaller base, who cares (except the customers?). End of rant.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Brunton andrechapelonAdjusted for inflation, the price 50 years ago would have been $26.77 for the 5 pack or about $5.35/car. ... 50 years ago, you wouldn't have gotten this, either: • Removable coal load • Factory installed wire grab irons • 100 ton roller bearing trucks ... 50 years ago (IIRC), Athearn had 3 locomotives, the F7, GP9, and Hustler, having dropped the steam engines they introduced in the late 1950's. As far as freight cars go, they had (again, IIRC), a 40 ft box, 40 ft reefer, a 4 truck flat car something like this: http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH92695 but without the load, a tank car, a gondola, and a caboose (based on ATSF prototype). ... AndreAnd 50 years ago, you probably had a black and white TV set and no Air conditioning, in your home OR car. You had no VCR, DVD, home computer or CD player. You might have had a radio / record player, most likely with a vacuum tube amplifier, though transistors were making inroads fast. My point: Production values and productivity have made great leaps in the past 50 years. I expect my inflation-adjusted money to buy a LOT more than it did back then. So what-your-money-bought-then comparisons are of very limited utility, because NO amount of money would buy you a lot of what we have now (DCC, for one obvious example). More generally: RTR rolling stock prices are absolutely outrageous. When the same car as a $10 kit costs $30 RTR and the assembly labor is getting one or two bucks an hour, somebody in the chain between manufacturer and customer is cleaning up on these RTR prices. Why do you think kits have disappeared from Athearn, Atlas and others? Expanded profits are why! Maybe they lose half their customer base, but if they're making twice the profit from that smaller base, who cares (except the customers?). End of rant.
LOL
I am sure that Sheldon will have something to say about this.
Mark, your reply seems somewhat disingenuous. Perhaps the Athearn kits disappeared for the very reason that you gave in the first part of your argument. If you can deliver all of the details and more in RTR form, then why do you need a kit. The very fact that production values and productivity have made great leaps in the past 50 years would explain the fact that the RTR version is superior to the kit version. The fact that the RTR version costs three times the kit version can be explained by the fact that your inflation-adjusted money buys a lot more in the RTR version than it did back then in the kit version.
richhotrainThe very fact that production values and productivity have made great leaps in the past 50 years would explain the fact that the RTR version is superior to the kit version.
I won't go there I won't go there..Must not go there.
Getting weak,weaker,I must not----
If you want to overlook the stirrups I found laying in the some of the Athearn supped up former MDC 50' (modern) boxcars inserts yes,production is right up there.
Thankfully its a easy fix..I replace the stirrup(s)add a tad of glue to the backside of the stirrups while I'm changing out couplers.I do all those cars that way now-save the stirrups from falling off later never to be found.
Apparently there's a glue shortage in China.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Andre, There you go again with all that math and logic. We have both likely caused many eyes to just roll backwards................. Sheldon That was a mindless comparison of the first order. Actually adjusted to today's prices which is more realistic since we are living in today's world and the cars are $40.00 a piece.. How many 5 packs are you guys planning on buying?
None - What is a Bethgon? Way outside my 1954 era.
richhotrain Brunton andrechapelonAdjusted for inflation, the price 50 years ago would have been $26.77 for the 5 pack or about $5.35/car. ... 50 years ago, you wouldn't have gotten this, either: • Removable coal load • Factory installed wire grab irons • 100 ton roller bearing trucks ... 50 years ago (IIRC), Athearn had 3 locomotives, the F7, GP9, and Hustler, having dropped the steam engines they introduced in the late 1950's. As far as freight cars go, they had (again, IIRC), a 40 ft box, 40 ft reefer, a 4 truck flat car something like this: http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH92695 but without the load, a tank car, a gondola, and a caboose (based on ATSF prototype). ... AndreAnd 50 years ago, you probably had a black and white TV set and no Air conditioning, in your home OR car. You had no VCR, DVD, home computer or CD player. You might have had a radio / record player, most likely with a vacuum tube amplifier, though transistors were making inroads fast. My point: Production values and productivity have made great leaps in the past 50 years. I expect my inflation-adjusted money to buy a LOT more than it did back then. So what-your-money-bought-then comparisons are of very limited utility, because NO amount of money would buy you a lot of what we have now (DCC, for one obvious example). More generally: RTR rolling stock prices are absolutely outrageous. When the same car as a $10 kit costs $30 RTR and the assembly labor is getting one or two bucks an hour, somebody in the chain between manufacturer and customer is cleaning up on these RTR prices. Why do you think kits have disappeared from Athearn, Atlas and others? Expanded profits are why! Maybe they lose half their customer base, but if they're making twice the profit from that smaller base, who cares (except the customers?). End of rant. LOL I am sure that Sheldon will have something to say about this. Mark, your reply seems somewhat disingenuous. Perhaps the Athearn kits disappeared for the very reason that you gave in the first part of your argument. If you can deliver all of the details and more in RTR form, then why do you need a kit. The very fact that production values and productivity have made great leaps in the past 50 years would explain the fact that the RTR version is superior to the kit version. The fact that the RTR version costs three times the kit version can be explained by the fact that your inflation-adjusted money buys a lot more in the RTR version than it did back then in the kit version. Rich
Actually, I'm not going to say too much. Just this, half the Athearn RTR line is EXACTLY the same as the blue box kits they came from (except for better paint jos), and adjusted for inflation they are priced at almost exactly what Athearn sold them for as RTR cars in the early 1960's. I've done the math in a dozen other threads, i'm not repeating it here.
As for Walthers RTR prices, agreed, a little on the high side, but most of it is off my radar.
Here’s a good comparative as I see it.
Let’s say you want to build a shed. Many people have a couple 2X4’s laying around, maybe…., but do you have enough to build a shed. No. So you go to your local retailer and you buy the pieces and parts to build a shed. Now you find you have a pretty little designed cupola that needs ordered because they don’t stock it. Why not? Because they simply don’t get enough requests for one to justify buying several to sit on the shelves. Keep in mind the distributers and/or manufacturers don’t front the shops these items until they’re bought. It costs the shop to have something sitting on the shelf. They’ll only continue to stock stuff that moves. What doesn’t, they’ll order on a as needed basis. Same with the nails for the shed. Most everyone keeps some nails around, but not enough to build a shed and why not? WE can't justify buying that many nails on the thought that maybe someday I'll build a shed The concept of if I need it, it should be sitting there waiting for me if and when I need it isn’t reasonable. Neither is it for the LHS especially with all the avenues available to get these things other than LHS's. Maybe I need something now and again, but if I’m the only one, or one of a few, the amount may not justify the stocking of said item especially with the discounts cutting into profits. They need to make the volume. Sorry, I like the discounts as much as the next guy, but it still cuts into the end sellers profits and therefore his likelihood of staying in business another year.
Supply and demand is very relevant, but we need to look at it from reality….trust me, if the demand for an item is there, and I’m not talking a couple guys like something and buy one or two packages every couple months because to me that’s a lot but to a retailer it’s not much, they’ll do their best to have it there for purchase. They want to make money more than you want to spend it. But don't call up Bachmann and say "hey, I'm creating a railroad called Bob's railroad. Start making some loco's and cars. To which Bachmann people say "well, I guess we'll make a bunch then because if we have it available others will buy it too."
It’s the same virtually everywhere and I know there are examples of one off specialty or “great shops” that appear to operate differently by having a package or two of this little do dad or that, there always are and always will be, but by and large every retailer buys and stocks according to what actually moves off the shelves and I don't mean just to dust it. Look at the grocery stores. You can see what sells and what doesn’t as much. Peanut butter….I like Skippy. One row Skippy, 3 of Peter Pan and like 6 of JIF. Why. JIF sells most, but Skippy stills sells enough for small space. I would love to see an endless supply of Skippy peanut butter, but until they actually sell more than JIF, it ain't gonna happen. People don't buy more JIF because there's more available, ther'es more available because more people buy JIF. The store in your neck of the woods may be different. Probably is. Demand in your area is different than mine. You may be in Skippy territory. Frozen Pizza, baked beans, potato chips. Look at the amounts of one brand over another and you can see what people are buying. People buy a lot more canned green beans than caned asparagus I tell you what. Now from time to time there is always some thing that holds up an order, but for the most part if you go to a hobby shop and they don’t carry and have to order your item, chances are it’s just not as popular as you think it is or should be. Like I said, they only want to buy something people will buy from them. Not just buy everything and hope someone comes and buys it before they go under.
THAT is supply and demand. Not stock it and if it’s available they’ll buy it. That’s “Build it and the will come”. Oh you can say if it’s not there I can’t buy it all you want but it doesn’t work that way. Many places have gone broke using that concept. OP asked what consumers can do? Buy. If they don’t stock, order. An order counts as good as a sale. If a shop gets sufficient orders to justify carrying an item, they will. If they don’t, sorry, they won’t.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.