M.T.H. Responds To DCC Lawsuit Allegations

[ben10ben]

Mark,
What you are really seeing is a person with a good many aliases alive and well on this forum. The person who posted that previously, either Bill Conner or Joe Polska, are all one in the same with H.Zimmer above. He also operates under the alias of Hans Zimmer, and a couple of others that slip my mind at the moment. We have been dealing with him for a while on the previously mentioned OGR forum, although he's left us alone recently.

My best advice for all Model Railroader forum members is to not respond to any of the comments that he makes, as they are nothing more than trolling in its purest sense. I try to make it a general habit now to not respond to anything he says.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by H. ZIMMER

You HO guys should welcome Mike and MTH with open arms! He's the one who saved O gauge and he'll revive HO too.

This is a perfect example of the attitude that frustrates me the most. What a crock. I am not in HO, and in my opinion many of MTH's actions over the years have done nothing more than drive a wedge between people in the O gauge community. You and I clearly don't see eye to eye on this.

If you want to kiss Mike's "whatever" go over to the OGR forum and take a number. Then when you get to York, your place in line will be guarenteed.

Revive HO??? HO needs this about as much as they need another model of a 40' boxcar. I have a felling that when all is said and done, there are going to be a lot of Pennsy K-4's without a home.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by H. ZIMMER

You HO guys should welcome Mike and MTH with open arms! He's the one who saved O gauge and he'll revive HO too.

LMAO! Now that was a good one Hans. Engines advertised to pull 50 cars except they blow their traction tires off and sizzle the reverse board doing it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

Mark,
What you are really seeing is a person with a good many aliases alive and well on this forum. The person who posted that previously, either Bill Conner or Joe Polska, are all one in the same with H.Zimmer above. He also operates under the alias of Hans Zimmer, and a couple of others that slip my mind at the moment. We have been dealing with him for a while on the previously mentioned OGR forum, although he's left us alone recently.

My best advice for all Model Railroader forum members is to not respond to any of the comments that he makes, as they are nothing more than trolling in its purest sense. I try to make it a general habit now to not respond to anything he says.

Yes Ben, I am familiar with a number of these names, and this message has come across on the CTT forum too. Others have said similar things about an even longer list of screen names being related. In this situation rather than make the claim that they are all one in the same, let's just deal with them as they come up.

I agree Mr Zimmer is trolling here, and so have a couple of others earlier in this topic. Ignoring their comments is a good way to deal with the problem, but sometimes it is difficult to let such outrageous comments go un challenged. I think we are doing pretty well given the nature of the topic.

[Anonymous]

A point brought up in another MTH thread that I would like to see what MTH's reponse might be: Will MTH be selling DCS decoders to for use in locomotives other than MTH products?? I think this is an excellent question because I doubt the DCS system will go too far without seperately available decoders.

Guy

[Anonymous]

Polska and connor are NOT the same person.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by H. ZIMMER

You HO guys should welcome Mike and MTH with open arms! He's the one who saved O gauge and he'll revive HO too.

Hello, H Zimmer,

I wasn't going to respond to this topic anymore but your comment..................I'll be cordial in asking you: Where in the world did you obtain the impression that the HO market needed a revival? [%-)][%-)][:P] I'll admit this, I would agree with you 100%...........if this were the 1980s!!

Currently HO and N are among model railroading's strongest markets! Please tell us what reviving the HO market needs? And what reviving can be expected with MTH's litigation? In the past decade there has been a huge upsurge in products and advancements in the HO market, not just DCC and electronics but locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars, wheels, detailing parts, paint, structures, and layout design products. I find myself a little overwhelmed sometimes when I go shopping at my LHS!

Trainlne, InterMountain, Stewart, DPM, Branchline, Proto, Cannon, Digitrax, Tichy, used to be obscure names a few years back, not anymore! If thrown, the Walther's HO Catalog is heavy enough to break through a plate glass window!

I realize that perhaps you're passionate about Mr. Wolfe for his contribution to O scale, which declined as HO, N, and even G scale gained popularity over the past two decades. But think about it, if MTH were to dissappear tomorrow it's a sure bet that the HO and N markets will continue to grow.

Welcome with open arms? Some will, but it's more like MTH is a business that's going to put its products out there. Some will buy, some won't as with any other business.

[AntonioFP45]

Ben10Ben and Big Boy. [:D]

Looks like I did respond hastily. [:0] I should have read your posts first instead of stopping at Zimmer and responding. Like you guys say, he's apparently trolling. [:-^][tdn]

Mr. Zimmer, you need to realize though that if you support MTH you are actually succeeding in fanning flames against MTH and based on about 80% of the overall responses to this thread, they're at "blow torch" temperature. [B)][:0][B)]

I'll continue to monitor this thread, but won't likely post anymore as I've stated my thoughts, opinions, and suggestions several times. I like to enjoy myself on this forum and would like to continue to do so. [8D][:D]

Time will record MTH's outcome and legacy.

Peace!

[Anonymous]

After I submitted my thoughts on what Mr. Zimmer had stated, I thought I may have been dupped by a troll!

It would be nice to be able to tell whom these folks are when reading a post. However, his statement was stupid and I should have seen it for what it was.

Mark DeSchane

[Anonymous]

Are you lot for real? DCC has been around for years. It may well have only been "standardised" recently, but the theory has been available since before the 1970's. We've just been waiting for powerful enough processors and cheap specific IC manufacture - so who patented them?

[Big_Boy_4005]

This is such a strange and interesting situation here, because it involves two distinct groups of modelers who might not otherwise meet. Each group has it's own reasons for taking a stand against MTH. Normally each group stays on it's own side of the tracks.

I can't think of too many other members here that are as active in both groups. This makes my position somewhat unique. I feel as if I know almost all of you, though some better than others.

To my HO friends, I'm sorry that you had to meet Mr Zimmer. As Ben said, he is a well known notorious character in the O gauge community. For those of you that may not have fully understood my earlier chiding of Mr Zimmer, the term "York" may need some clarification.

York is York Pennsylvania, the site of a twice annual train meet. However, unless you are a member of the TCA ( Train Collectors Association ), you are not invited. At this meet all of the major O gauge manufacturers are present showing and selling their products, and hob knobbing with the faithfull. This show has something of a cult following. I am not a member of that cult, in spite of being a member of the TCA.

Though we all speak "model railroadeese" there are two distinct dialects. I like to think that I am fluent in both. This is why I have my member numbers for both the NMRA and TCA in my signature.

Perhaps MTH is doing us all a favor here, by forcing us to come together.

[Anonymous]

Elliot,

I think a very wise political science professor I had in college said it best "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Not that you TCA/O Scale types are my enemy! It's just that often times a common evil binds people together that would normally not even say "hi" to each other.

[AntonioFP45]

BigBoy,

Thanks for enlightening us. It's funny, at 41 I would have never thought of model railroad groups actually isolating themselves as you just described. I've always naively assumed that anyone would be welcomed at meets ( in some cases charge a low fee to help with expenses).

Based on all the input I've been reading, I can believe that there may be groups that are rather exclusive. It makes no sense to me though as I've always felt that this hobby was about having fun with trains whether you're a prototype modeler, free lancer, collector, garden railroader, suitcase Z modeler, or tin plater.

I can only hope that those modelers or collectors are not "too exclusive" and still make an effort to share the hobby and encourage our younger "PlayStation" generation.

Cheers!

[Anonymous]

Antonio

AMEN!!!!

Dave

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

BigBoy,

Thanks for enlightening us. It's funny, at 41 I would have never thought of model railroad groups actually isolating themselves as you just described. I've always naively assumed that anyone would be welcomed at meets ( in some cases charge a low fee to help with expenses).

Based on all the input I've been reading, I can believe that there may be groups that are rather exclusive. It makes no sense to me though as I've always felt that this hobby was about having fun with trains whether you're a prototype modeler, free lancer, collector, garden railroader, suitcase Z modeler, or tin plater.

I can only hope that those modelers or collectors are not "too exclusive" and still make an effort to share the hobby and encourage our younger "PlayStation" generation.

Cheers!

Yes Antonio, it's sad but true. The TCA was formed in the 50's. It's a real "old boy's" club. There are times when I wonder why I keep renewing my membership. Force of habit I guess. 22 years have passed quickly.

Please don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good guys in the TCA. Actually the TCA and it's members are very aware of the larger issues we as model railroaders face. Collectors are even more of a dying breed, literally. In that regard hobby promotion is just as important to that group as it is to modelers of every other scale. I have been thinking about the future of the hobby for over 20 years.

The reason the meet is closed, has to do with the organization's rules and insurance. Membership is open to anyone, but applicants need to have the recommendation of two members before being considered. Because of the nature of collecting, rules are very strict, as the potential for fraud is high. The tightness of the group makes it possible for members to trust one another, because everyone knows the consequences of wrong doing.

When I lived in Denver, a bunch of the TCA guys got together and formed a sepreate group. The point was specificly to be able to operate outside TCA rules, and hold meets that WERE open to the public. Each year around Thanksgiving, we would have a 2 day meet. Saturday was for the TCA members only, but Sunday the public was welcomed. This allowed the members to sell their less desirable stuff to the public as well as promote the hobby, and maybe recruit new blood ar the same time. A real win win situation.

So how does this all relate to MTH? Well for many years now MTH has played, and played well, to this rather large captive audience at York. The HO community was never invited nor considered, but it wasn't a problem because MTH didn't make any HO equipment. Times are changing.

I'm not sure if MTH has been attending the National Train Show held in conjunction with the NMRA national conventions. If they haven't they should. Especially if they plan to get into HO.

I hope this sheds a little light onto how the other half lives.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Through the years I have been involved in many hobbies. Sailing, R/C flying, 1/48th WW1 Aircraft modeling, HO model railroading, wooden and plastic model sailing ships and others. In all of these sports/hobbies/activities, I have met people with gigantic egos, whom fail to understand that these things are (after all) only hobbies. I see that their identities become linked with what they percieve to be their stature within the hobby.

This seems a little on the nutso side to me!

I've been doing hobbies for almost 50 years now. I do them to have fun and let my creative juices flow!

Those of you whom take things so seriesly and are abusive to those of us whom are not, need to know that we are not impressed and for the most part, you turn us off!

[Anonymous]

>>This seems a little on the nutso side to me!

I have to agree with sentiment. There are the ones who say they don't even play with HO but do not hesitate to post their thoughts here. Makes me wonder what their agenda is all about anyway. Other says there is prior art but refuse to explain any further. What is their agenda?

Guys! It's supposed to be a hobby! At least it is for some of us! Spare us the drama and get back to playing with trains. OK?

[Anonymous]

If Lionel does go chapter 11, then MTH will get nothing. Am I reading this correctly??
A

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill August

If Lionel does go chapter 11, then MTH will get nothing. Am I reading this correctly??
A

Maybe not nothing, but pennies on the dollar.

[Anonymous]

To master all of these....

Below are the features you will have access to when using a DCC controller:

- Operate Locomotive At Scale Speeds
- Activate Whistle/Horn or Bell Sounds
- Hear Squeaking Brakes
- Enjoy Synchronized Puffing Smoke Timed To Driver Revolutions
- Activate Passenger Station or Freight Yard Sound Effects
- Activate Doppler Sound Effects
- Control Smoke Operation
- Control Locomotive Master Volume
- Adjust The Locomotive Chuff Rate


Next, are the features you will have access to when using a DCS system:

- 22 Independent Volume Control Settings
- 16 Adjustable Chuff Rate Settings
- 3 Adjustable Smoke Intensity Settings
- Adjustable Brake Sound Effects
- Adjustable Wheel “Clickity-Clack” Sounds
- 15 Selectable Custom Sounds
- 4 Adjustable Diesel Engine Ditch Lighting Effects
- 120 Adjustable Engine Speed Settings
- 3 Adjustable Locomotive Direction Start-up Engines
- Simple Lash-up Creation
- Simple Route Creation
- Simple Scene Creation
- Record/Playback 90 Minutes of Operation
- Downloadable Locomotive Sounds Sets
- Independent Locomotive Chronometer
- Independent Locomotive Odometer
- Independent Locomotive Trip Odometer
- Track Signal Quality Test
- Linear Track Length Meter
- Trip Odometer
- 2 Independent Engine Reset Features
- Doppler
- Broadcast Your Voice Through The Train's Speaker
- Independent Whistle & Bell Sounds
- 120 Speed Steps – Control engines speed in increments of 1 smph.
- 42 Levels of Programming Option
- Labor/Drift Chuffing Sound Control
- Diesel Rev Up/Down Sound Control
- Speed Boost & Brake Control
- One Touch Smoke On/Off Control
- One Touch Volume Level Control
- Engine Sounds Mute Button
- One Touch Headlight On/Off Control
- One Touch Proto-Cast™ Control
- One Touch Engine Startup Control
- One Touch Engine Shutdown Control
- One Touch Passenger or Freight Sound Activation
- Sound Packages Downloadable from MTH Website

You need to go here...

[rrinker]

Well there you go, all the truly useful DCS features (broadcasting your voice and 'clicky clack' are NOT, IMO) are all available in QSI and Soundtraxx under DCC. Bottom line, even if MTH comes out with a Reading T-1 before BLI ro someone else, I am NOT going to change my whole control system just for one locomotive, and if I cna only use a tiny fraction of the capabilities, and it looks like there are very useful ones you can't access under DCC, then I see no point in buying the loco.
I'm looking at this not as a "boycott MTH" issue but as a "there's absolutely no reason to buy this product" issue.

--Randy

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

Well there you go, all the truly useful DCS features (broadcasting your voice and 'clicky clack' are NOT, IMO) are all available in QSI and Soundtraxx under DCC. Bottom line, even if MTH comes out with a Reading T-1 before BLI ro someone else, I am NOT going to change my whole control system just for one locomotive, and if I cna only use a tiny fraction of the capabilities, and it looks like there are very useful ones you can't access under DCC, then I see no point in buying the loco.
I'm looking at this not as a "boycott MTH" issue but as a "there's absolutely no reason to buy this product" issue.

--Randy

Yes Randy, that is a much more realistic way of looking at this whole situation. Forget all of the deep philosophical nonsense about patents and lawsuits. Just look at the product from the perspective of "is this what I want to spend my money on?" Do I want or need all of those features?

The patent and lawsuit issues are still deeply troubleing, but they aren't going to be what makes or breaks MTH's venture into HO. Bottom line, do consumers want this product?

[Big_Boy_4005]

If I were to switch to HO tomorrow, I would still build my railroad the same way. I would still have it operate the same way. I don't own or run any steam engines. These are the features that would interest me.

Below are the features you will have access to when using a DCC controller:

- Operate Locomotive At Scale Speeds
- Activate Whistle/Horn or Bell Sounds
- Hear Squeaking Brakes
- Enjoy Synchronized Puffing Smoke Timed To Driver Revolutions
- Activate Passenger Station or Freight Yard Sound Effects
- Activate Doppler Sound Effects
- Control Smoke Operation
- Control Locomotive Master Volume
- Adjust The Locomotive Chuff Rate


Next, are the features you will have access to when using a DCS system:

- 22 Independent Volume Control Settings
- 16 Adjustable Chuff Rate Settings
- 3 Adjustable Smoke Intensity Settings
- Adjustable Brake Sound Effects
- Adjustable Wheel “Clickity-Clack” Sounds
- 15 Selectable Custom Sounds
- 4 Adjustable Diesel Engine Ditch Lighting Effects
- 120 Adjustable Engine Speed Settings
- 3 Adjustable Locomotive Direction Start-up Engines
- Simple Lash-up Creation
- Simple Route Creation
- Simple Scene Creation
- Record/Playback 90 Minutes of Operation
- Downloadable Locomotive Sounds Sets
- Independent Locomotive Chronometer
- Independent Locomotive Odometer
- Independent Locomotive Trip Odometer
- Track Signal Quality Test
- Linear Track Length Meter
- Trip Odometer
- 2 Independent Engine Reset Features
- Doppler
- Broadcast Your Voice Through The Train's Speaker
- Independent Whistle & Bell Sounds
- 120 Speed Steps – Control engines speed in increments of 1 smph.
- 42 Levels of Programming Option
- Labor/Drift Chuffing Sound Control
- Diesel Rev Up/Down Sound Control
- Speed Boost & Brake Control
- One Touch Smoke On/Off Control
- One Touch Volume Level Control
- Engine Sounds Mute Button
- One Touch Headlight On/Off Control
- One Touch Proto-Cast™ Control
- One Touch Engine Startup Control
- One Touch Engine Shutdown Control
- One Touch Passenger or Freight Sound Activation
- Sound Packages Downloadable from MTH Website

I just want to operate my trains. I don't need to hear them or smell them. Heck, I don't even know what some of that stuff is, so why would I want to pay for it.

[AntonioFP45]

Hey BigBoy,

Wow! I sure don't need all those extra features, even in DCC. To me the simpler it is, the fewer the headaches.

However, at low volume, I really enjoy the sound of a diesel locomotive's horn. As a teen in Tampa, I lived about 1 mile from the tracks. Often while doing homework in my bedroom, I would regularly hear train horns and immedietly knew if it was an Amtrak SDP40f (the SL4T horn was unique), an SCL U-Boat or an SCL yard switcher.

For me the horn is one feature that brings back many fond memories.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
... Sorry John, I don't. I don't buy those products. As a consumer I tell them where to stick it. Why are we even talking about who pays? [%-)] I didn't mention any of that in my post.

The dollar value of the judgement is meaningless like you said.

Oh, you are wrong there--
If you buy from a company that has been defending itself in such a case, you paid their lawyers... and that's not something you can choose to avoid as easily as boycotting the plaintiff.

As far as the final award, likely to be reduced... but in the mean time, creditors avoid further exposure to the defendants.

Those 'huge' awards are similar to medical malpractice awards... often reduced, but a burden on the defendent in the mean time... and as far as insurace goes (business OR malpractice) has anyone noticed the Ins. Companies are arbiters of First resort? (...they pay to settle rather than beat back the unjustified plaintiffs- just because it's cheaper... for Them.) Then they raise the rates to cover their exposure.

The lawyers ain't pretty, either, but they do mitigate predatory and reckless activities.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by peter-f

QUOTE:
... Sorry John, I don't. I don't buy those products. As a consumer I tell them where to stick it. Why are we even talking about who pays? [%-)] I didn't mention any of that in my post.

The dollar value of the judgement is meaningless like you said.

Oh, you are wrong there--
If you buy from a company that has been defending itself in such a case, you paid their lawyers... and that's not something you can choose to avoid as easily as boycotting the plaintiff.

As far as the final award, likely to be reduced... but in the mean time, creditors avoid further exposure to the defendants.

Those 'huge' awards are similar to medical malpractice awards... often reduced, but a burden on the defendent in the mean time... and as far as insurace goes (business OR malpractice) has anyone noticed the Ins. Companies are arbiters of First resort? (...they pay to settle rather than beat back the unjustified plaintiffs- just because it's cheaper... for Them.) Then they raise the rates to cover their exposure.

The lawyers ain't pretty, either, but they do mitigate predatory and reckless activities.

I haven't bought ANY new trains from either manufacturer in over 4 years. I don't own any steam engines, and have no plans to buy any. The trains I have been buying were picked up at shows or on eBay, and most were not current production at the time. It has been even longer since I last placed an order with a dealer for new trains, and I have no plans to change my buying habits.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Each year around Thanksgiving, we would have a 2 day meet. Saturday was for the TCA members only, but Sunday the public was welcomed. This allowed the members to sell their less desirable stuff to the public as well as promote the hobby,

What a swell group to be associated with. In other words, Sell the "junk" that your fellow TCA members passed on the day before to the unsuspecting public. Makes one wonder how many of those unsuspecting, and most likely in a few days, unhappy public newcomers were turned off to this hobby.

This sort of thing happens in every walk of life and in every form of business, however, it doesn't make the newbie feel any better when they find this out the hard way. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out the way it did, at lest I'd hope not.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rod M.

QUOTE: Each year around Thanksgiving, we would have a 2 day meet. Saturday was for the TCA members only, but Sunday the public was welcomed. This allowed the members to sell their less desirable stuff to the public as well as promote the hobby,

What a swell group to be associated with. In other words, Sell the "junk" that your fellow TCA members passed on the day before to the unsuspecting public. Makes one wonder how many of those unsuspecting, and most likely in a few days, unhappy public newcomers were turned off to this hobby.

This sort of thing happens in every walk of life and in every form of business, however, it doesn't make the newbie feel any better when they find this out the hard way. I'm sure you didn't mean it to come out the way it did, at lest I'd hope not.

You make it sound as if the members were trying to rip off the public. That simply was not the case. It was no different from any non TCA event held anywhere in the country.

The quality and the prices of the trains didn't change from one day to the next. Nor did the integrity of the members. The only thing that really changed was the faces in the crowd.

Here in the Twin Cities the TCA is almost non existant. I quit going years ago, when the same 40 guys kept bringing the same stuff month in and month out, and I didn't want to buy any of it. The local public meets are sponsored by an HO club, a 2 rail O club, and a private individual with no club affiliation. There are NO rules as to what can be sold, and it's buyer beware.

[AntonioFP45]

BigBoy,

No word yet on the status of the lawsuit? I've heard 2nd hand from one professional in the industry that looks like things may go in our favor.

[Anonymous]

Elliot, I only made it sound that way as that is the way it sounded to me.

The statement, "less desirable" to me meant that while on Saturday, they were available to other TCA members, those members knew they were not worth what was being asked for the piece. Yet on Sunday, they found unsuspecting souls to pawn the stuff off on.
Like I said, I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound that way, but to me it did.