M.T.H. Responds To DCC Lawsuit Allegations

[Anonymous]

You guys break me up. The joking is great when done in taste and does not intidmadate in member. Keep it up. When are you going to issue stock shares in this development.
In HO could you really see much diffence in 5 scale miles per hour.
I know my 3rd rail engines with TA's cruise control take between 6 and 7 seconds per driver revolution,(steam) depending on driver diameter.
That is slow in O gauge and would be quite slow in HO also.
dave/

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

You guys break me up. The joking is great when done in taste and does not intidmadate in member. Keep it up. When are you going to issue stock shares in this development.
In HO could you really see much diffence in 5 scale miles per hour.
I know my 3rd rail engines with TA's cruise control take between 6 and 7 seconds per driver revolution,(steam) depending on driver diameter.
That is slow in O gauge and would be quite slow in HO also.
dave/

Dave, what you don't realize is that Bill (Darth) and Karl (Kbfcsme) are in the same train club, and are probably talking on the phone with each other. Good one guys.[swg]

Good low speed control in HO is like watching the minute hand on a clock move. Good gears and good motor with flywheel, could run at under 1 SMPH.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Mr Edlemen,

Thank you Sir for your reply, that has given you extra points. Now when we talk about differences in fire hoses and water faucets thats my area of knowledge and one thing any Firemen will tell you is if you put out too much hose you get friction loss, so you have to increase the pressure to over come this. I tell you this because I think this is kind of how this whole mess got started. MTH turned up the pressure to overcome there friction loss. You have satisfied some of my concerns about your system but not all. I am really concerned that to use you system I can only use your engine. (currently 1)well in my world of trains I have 5, at the retail price of your engine I cant afford to run your system. Please correct me if I am wrong as I said I am new and just learning but you are earning some respect from me.

I know that since I am new. I probly have no buisiness posting and asking questions since I do not have all the tech knowledge of the other gentlemen but I really want to know these things. So please forgive me if I error in any way.

I model in Ho that might be important to know.


Thank you
William (AKA polizi)

[Anonymous]

Seems like the intent of MTH is to become the Marklin of HO and cater to the guys with the deep pockets. You know their prices will be sky high, even more than Athearn Genesis.

The complaints about the OGR forum are valid. Too much censorship and whining with a lot of know it alls controlling the forum. They are very hostile to people who are not in the clique.

[Anonymous]

Mr, Donaldson, are you Lionel's new CEO, Jerry Calabrese? -- Seriously-- There are rumors to that effect.

[Anonymous]

According to the o gauge board and rich melvin, Jerry C is the new ceo of Lionel. They fired the pres, vice pres and a number of other people just recently.
I have not seen it in a press release but doubt that the editor of a forum would lie. dave.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: 2. M.T.H. is already working with the DCC community to ensure that our HO locomotives will function with DCC controllers. This means that if you have a DCC controller from any manufacturer, you will be able to control our locomotives in command mode and have access to certain features. These features were listed in an earlier post.

3. As indicated above, our locomotives will be compatible with DCC controllers. Our DCS system is NOT DCC. We use a different, more efficient and robust method of communicating with our engines. This allows our system to control many more functions than a DCC system is capable of. Think of DCS as a fire hose and DCC as a sink faucet. Much more water or data can flow through the fire hose than the sink faucet thus allowing a Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotive to do many more things. We toyed with the concept of building into DCS a parallel DCC communication protocol so that users who desire to control DCC engines with DCS could do so. However, because DCC controllers are already available, we've elected for the time being to leave out the dual protocol which means that today DCS cannot control a DCC engine in command mode. Because the two systems are completely different, there is no way that a DCC controller can control a Proto-Sound 3.0 engine's DCS features.

Andy Edleman
Vice President - Marketing
M.T.H. Electric Trains

So what you're saying is, If I buy a DCC controller, I can access some, not all of the features in an MTH HO engine. If I want to access all the features, I have to buy a DCS controller. But, if I buy a DCS controller, I will be forced to buy only MTH engines. To run all brands to their fullest, I need both a DCC controller, a DCS controller, and a maze of wires and interface boxes? (I'm not sure how you marry the two) How much will all this cost?

I don't get it. The way I read it is MTH is freely incorporating DCC technology into their system, yet is threatening to litigate anyone who may incorporate DCS technology in to their system. Not a fair way to play ball in my opinion.

At any rate, I percieve your venture into HO as a high end segregated product like Marklin which is not real popular here in the states.

[Anonymous]

Stupid Question though.........
What is the differnce between DCC & DC anyway?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

According to the o gauge board and rich melvin, Jerry C is the new ceo of Lionel. They fired the pres, vice pres and a number of other people just recently.
I have not seen it in a press release but doubt that the editor of a forum would lie. dave.

That is correct Dave. The announcement is on the magazine section of CTT here online, but we digress.[;)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Stupid Question though.........
What is the differnce between DCC & DC anyway?

At the risk of sounding rude, perhaps this isn't the best conversation for you to get involved in, if you have to ask. [B)][}:)]To answer your question, DC is standard block wiring, the way electric trains have been run since the beginning of time. DCC stands for Digital Command Control, a very cool concept. By placing a receiver in the locomotive and sending a digitally coded signal down the rail you can control multiple trains on the same track. No need for block wiring.[:)]

MTH has created their own version of command control called DCS. It is similar to DCC, but not the same.

Now, armed with this basic understanding of the situation, go back to page one of this topic, and see if any of this makes sense.[;)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M. DONALDSON

Seems like the intent of MTH is to become the Marklin of HO and cater to the guys with the deep pockets. You know their prices will be sky high, even more than Athearn Genesis.

The complaints about the OGR forum are valid. Too much censorship and whining with a lot of know it alls controlling the forum. They are very hostile to people who are not in the clique.

I think your assessment of the OGR forum is pretty accurate. There is an attitude problem that can be difficult to deal with.

I'm glad to see that some of my fellow O gaugers share my concerns over MTH's behavior on this matter, even though we aren't directly affected. I was disappointed by a few comments made early in this topic by some of the OGR and MTH faithful that wandered over here. They are welcome to visit, so long as they aren't being totally disruptive or rude. I.e. no trolling please!

As for MTH becoming the Marklin of the US, that is an interesting observation. I'm sure that isn't where Mike wants to go, but that might be where he's headed.[:0][;)]

[darth9x9]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


[snip]
Dave, what you don't realize is that Bill (Darth) and Karl (Kbfcsme) are in the same train club, and are probably talking on the phone with each other. Good one guys.[swg]
[snip]

Elliot,

You are correct in that we belong to the same club. But any time we 'meet' on the forums is purely coincidental.

BC

[JerryZeman]

Gentlemen;

Mr. Edleman contacted me off list regarding my post. His response was very informative, and he has accepted the opportunity to demonstrate DCS on my railroad.

His decision to demonstrate DCS speaks well of his company's faith in their system's abilities, and I anxiously await to see how well it does. I definitely have a reason to clean the basement better than it has been. [:)]

Mr. Edleman has also indicated that they have been working with the personnel very familiar to the DCC community (I'll leave it to Andy to elaborate further) to ensure that their locomotive offerings meet the DCC standards. Quite frankly, I would have felt a whole lot different about MTH if they would have come out and said that clearly at the onset. They DO appear to be attempting to integrate into the HO marketplace in a non-intrusive manner.

I hope that Mr. Edleman posts the points he raises in his e-mail on this forum, as I feel it goes a long way toward clearing up most of the trepidation that I had relative to their entrance into HO. It is not my place to post it for him.

I will be arranging to meet Andy during the November timeframe, and set up running a demonstration. In the meantime, I'm bowing out of the discussion here, and I will post results of the test when concluded.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by darth9x9

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


[snip]
Dave, what you don't realize is that Bill (Darth) and Karl (Kbfcsme) are in the same train club, and are probably talking on the phone with each other. Good one guys.[swg]
[snip]

Elliot,

You are correct in that we belong to the same club. But any time we 'meet' on the forums is purely coincidental.

BC

Sorry Bill, I guess I read too much into your situation. It was still a great joke for this topic.[:D] By the way Big Girl and I are in the same house, and talk on the phone all the time.[:p]

[Anonymous]

Elliot: I plead dumb, what does trolling mean. New term to me,.
Dave.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JerryZeman

Gentlemen;

Mr. Edleman contacted me off list regarding my post. His response was very informative, and he has accepted the opportunity to demonstrate DCS on my railroad.

His decision to demonstrate DCS speaks well of his company's faith in their system's abilities, and I anxiously await to see how well it does. I definitely have a reason to clean the basement better than it has been. [:)]

Mr. Edleman has also indicated that they have been working with the personnel very familiar to the DCC community (I'll leave it to Andy to elaborate further) to ensure that their locomotive offerings meet the DCC standards. Quite frankly, I would have felt a whole lot different about MTH if they would have come out and said that clearly at the onset. They DO appear to be attempting to integrate into the HO marketplace in a non-intrusive manner.

I hope that Mr. Edleman posts the points he raises in his e-mail on this forum, as I feel it goes a long way toward clearing up most of the trepidation that I had relative to their entrance into HO. It is not my place to post it for him.

I will be arranging to meet Andy during the November timeframe, and set up running a demonstration. In the meantime, I'm bowing out of the discussion here, and I will post results of the test when concluded.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

Jerry, that is fantastic!!!! This whole thing may have a happy ending yet. Now all we have to deal with is the legal aspect of the patent, and it's fallout.

I have been giving this whole thing a lot of thought, and I had a rather crazy but creative idea.

It involves a final settlement of the Lionel case for reduced level of cash plus the rights to license TMCC at no aditional charge. Lionel would then be required to produce some of their trains with DCS. This gets both parties out of court, and saves a lot of legal fees. Part of the cash could be used to offset the development costs of DCS, thus removing the pressure of the patent.

This may seem to MTH as if they are coming up short, but if they do something along these lines, in the end they become heros in the eyes of a lot of modelers, and perhaps even an industry leader. They level the playing field with Lionel, they move forward working with the NMRA, stay out of court, and end up with some ca***o boot.

Everyone just wants to have fun playing with their trains. This hobby is expensive enough without having to pay for the manufacturers to sue each other. Now if only someone could convince the Union Pacific to drop it, life would be wonderful.

If the manufacturers really want to increase earnings, maybe they should sponsor more public train shows. Work with clubs and hobby stores to get more children interested trains, and into the hobby. It certainly couldn't hurt.[^]

[ben10ben]

Dave,
Trolling generally refers to a post that is made to serve no other purpose than causing an argument. There are posts that are trolling in that sense, and then there are those well intentioned posts that go that direction. Trolls, though, generally have a past history of making such posts, and will usually never reply to a post once they start it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

Elliot: I plead dumb, what does trolling mean. New term to me,.
Dave.

Trolling is making antagonistic or provocative comments to get a rise out of someone or an entire group. A person who does this is called a troll. It is a forum buzz word internet wide, we didn't make it up here.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by darth9x9

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


[snip]
Dave, what you don't realize is that Bill (Darth) and Karl (Kbfcsme) are in the same train club, and are probably talking on the phone with each other. Good one guys.[swg]
[snip]

Elliot,

You are correct in that we belong to the same club. But any time we 'meet' on the forums is purely coincidental.

BC

Sorry Bill, I guess I read too much into your situation. It was still a great joke for this topic.[:D] By the way Big Girl and I are in the same house, and talk on the phone all the time.[:p]

The phone? Why didn't I think of that??????[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]
No foul here Elliott.
Bill and I, (and the rest of the FCSME'ers for that matter) just are like that wherever we meet up. Be it at our homes, the local LHS, or even here, we can't help but mess with each other![}:)]
Isn't that how a club really should be??

[AntonioFP45]

Been reading so much about the "OGR" forum. Does anyone here have the web address?

Definitly don't want to join, just want to take a look at it as it should have some interesting posts on there. Only fair since apparently some of the OGR members have been checking this forum out and even posting.

From what I've read from some of you, basically anyone that posts "anti-MTH" sentiments on the OGR forum gets blowtorched. I'm wondering what kind of posts I'll find there.

[Anonymous]

Still in my bookmarks. Knock yourself out.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=63160042&f=57660482

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Karl, I've been in a bunch of clubs over the years. Part of the fun of this hobby is meeting people who share a common interest. What I've noticed about the forum is that once people start calling each other by their first names, it takes on a whole different feel. Much more like a club, just no layout.

Antonio, speaking of clubs, the OGR forum is really one too. It's a tough one to get into. I'm sure it's as much fun once you are accepted, but being accepted is not as easy as it is here. That's what the other guys are complaining about. Definately a different culture over there.

Many of the guys from OGR are members here because of CTT. I subscribe to both magazines, and MR and Trains. I even had a subscription to Garden Railways for a while.

When it comes to MTH, sometimes there are things that people on OGR want to say, but for whatever reason can't, so they come here to CTT. This topic has nothing to do with O gauge, it's about HO and DCC and DCS. But because MTH is involved, a lot of those guys are curious.

[simon1966]

At any given point in time, how many HO scale locomotives are avaialble on the market that are compatible with DCC? If you include pre-announcements, out of production but still available at train shows, all those road numbers and road names, there must be hundereds manufactured by at least a dozen key manufacturers. This is the choice that a DCC or DC modeller has available to them. Then take into account the number of locomotives that a modeller has on the roster already that can either run on DCC or be converted to run on DCC. MTH will offer their new locomotives into this market and assuming they have their pricing in order and have chosen road names and models for which there is a demand, will have little problem selling out the limited production run. If on the other hand you are an HO DCS user what is your choice for motive power? How big is your choice ever going to be? Hornby, in introducing the new HO scale live steam engines, have also introduced a new control system to the HO market that is not compatible with what we already have. The sentiment on the "horny" thread was that it is an interesting curiosity but with the control system being different not likely to attract a big audience. I think it is likely that both DCS and Hornby live steam will end up as very limited niche products with small followings in HO. DCS may well be superior to DCC in all respects, but as a control system it has a massive hurdle to overcome. The inability to run the millions of cherished locomotives on our layouts and in the stores today. This is a big marketing challenge and one that will be interesting to watch unfold.

[cmarchan]

To JerryZeman,

I realize you will not be participating in this forum until the results of your demonstration, but I would like to place the following suggestion. I recommend using M.T. H. equipment supplied by a dealer, currently IN STOCK. This will eliminate the opportunity for M.T.H. to "tweak", "fine tune" or "modify" control systems or locomotives to maximize their chances for a successful demonstration.

Just a thought....

[Anonymous]

Way to go Jerry. I'm sure that you and Andy will have LOTS to talk about. You may end up having his as a house guest for a couple of days.[;)]

Jim

[Anonymous]

Jerry, Just borrow some DCS locos from friends, Besides, If MTH is OK with having friends visit during the demonstration, those friends who use DCS would LOVE to get DCS tips from the MTH horse's mouth.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Jerry, as long as everyone is giving you suggestions, here's mine. Since you are going to be cleaning anyway, it wouldn't hurt to invite a couple of other guests. One or two people from Kalmbach would be excellent observers. Two names at the top of my list would be Andy Sperandeo and *** Christiansen. There are a lot of other interested and qualified people at Kalmbach if those two aren't available. Of course you will have to OK this with Andy first as part of your deal.

If the test is successful, then MTH deserves all the good PR associated with it. If not, the silence will speak volumes.

Guys, it really doesn't matter what engines MTH brings to this test. This is a test of DCS on an existing HO layout which is wired for DCC. As I see it, the real issues in this test are: How easily does DCS tie into an existing layout, especially one that is not necessarily very simple? How compatible is DCS with DCC? How well does a DCS equiped engine perform under "normal" layout conditions?

These are all factors that are important to conusmers, and ultimately to MTH. Keep in mind that DCS was developed for 3 rail O running on AC track power. How well does it translate into HO?

Inquiring minds want to know ! [swg]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: When it comes to MTH, sometimes there are things that people on OGR want to say, but for whatever reason can't, so they come here to CTT. This topic has nothing to do with O gauge, it's about HO and DCC and DCS. But because MTH is involved, a lot of those guys are curious.

Nothing to do with O?
No, I have to disagee on that one.[:)]
The days of the distant cousin hobbies are not quite as pronounced as they once were. With Atlas doing what they do, Lionels attempt?, MTH's entry into HO, and many other smaller companies cross-scale/gauge offerings, their corporate happenings are interesting to many.
As a Hi-Railer, I have really appreciated reading these threads, which really broadened my understanding of other scales which can't totally be a bad thing , can it?
Incidentally I have also enjoyed reading a long thread here and not having it disappear forever from underneath me as I refreshed it to read more posts. Sadly, this has been the case on some other venues.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005
Antonio, speaking of clubs, the OGR forum is really one too. It's a tough one to get into. I'm sure it's as much fun once you are accepted, but being accepted is not as easy as it is here. That's what the other guys are complaining about. Definately a different culture over there.
When it comes to MTH, sometimes there are things that people on OGR want to say, but for whatever reason can't, so they come here to CTT. This topic has nothing to do with O gauge, it's about HO and DCC and DCS. But because MTH is involved, a lot of those guys are curious.

BigBoy's statements are totally accurate. This subject could never be discussed on the OGR forum. The moderator Melvin quickly deletes any posts that are critical of MTH. However, Mr. Tony Lash, who is the biggest MTH backer of them all, can get on the OGR forum and trash Lionel all he wants without deletion That is a fact!

[3railguy]

Yes, only certain individuals have flaming rights on the OGR forum. I had a post deleted once where I flamed some moron for calling HO people weenies. They're a tight nit group.