M.T.H. Responds To DCC Lawsuit Allegations

[Anonymous]

Folks, I understand your concern about any patents slowing down development. Patent processes are frustrating, and it sounds like we're now getting a taste of what happens all the time in biotech R&D patent battles.

But I am also have many friends who, like MTH, have had bad experiences with Far Eastern businesses fleecing them of intellectual property. The business culture there is different, and I commend MTH for defending themselves.

As far as slowing development with other manufacturers is concerned, MTH may wi***o do more than "write a letter" to them expressing willingness to talk. They should go visit each of them, get to know them, and propose realistic terms for sharing their technology. Resolving the gridlock will require hard work building trust, not just elegantly written letters. If MTH isn't doing their share to bail out the airlines traveling to see the manufacturers, they're also not doing enough to resolve the gridlock.

Good luck to all of us.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by plane_crazy

I went over the OGR forum just to look. One of the first strings I found was entitled DCS, DCC, TMCC or DC. When you read it, I would say the huge majority of respondents praise DCC, with TMCC second and a few praising DCS. While one post on OGR does not make a trend, it is interesting to me that the when asked it sure seemed to me like a majority of resonders to that string were going DCC

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=63160042&f=3181048701&m=3091074801&p=1

By the way, I do thank whomever for keeping this thread alive although I don't see why it's such a big deal, this seems like the most information and 'action getting' string I've ever seen. I do give MTH credit for listening and responding. I'm still not ready to buy anything from them yet. Too much litigation in the country, not enough love :-)

That is an interesting topic, thanks for the link, I missed that one. Keep in mind that OGR deals with both 2 and 3 rail O.

The part I found most interesting is that Atlas actually sells 2 rail TMCC versions. That seems very strange to me. I have considered running my 3 rail layout on on DC, but I have always understood that the bell and whistle are triggered by a simple DC bias applied to the rails. Thus, running on DC would leave one or the other on all the time. What a racket!

As far as the life of this topic goes, I would expect Andy to check in this morning. After that it may slip to the back burner until the test at Jerry Zeman's house is completed. Then a whole new round of discussion will pop up.[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

Does anyone know why Rich Melvin is so protective of MTH?
Does he have a vested interest in them. Yes it is true, as I was a member over there for a couple of years and then just plain had it.
You can bash lionel, atlas, 3rd rail, k-line all you want and no problem, but say one thing bad against mth and you are in deep do do.
It really should have its name change to "The Gospel of Mike Wolf Fourm" as that is basically what it is.
Before Rich Melvin took over it was a 1st class place where you had freedom, but no more. Figure it out, I can;t , don't care to and just got my cancelled subscription refund in the mail saturday. No big loss as all it has in it is more ads. Classic toy trains has the good stuff like the article on track by all the players in O gauge.
By the way did any of you get a questionaire in your email from kalmbach.
Very good idea. Find out just what people want. dave.

I agree 100%!!!!
OGR+RM=[censored]

[Anonymous]

I went over the OGR forum just to look. One of the first strings I found was entitled DCS, DCC, TMCC or DC. When you read it, I would say the huge majority of respondents praise DCC, with TMCC second and a few praising DCS. While one post on OGR does not make a trend, it is interesting to me that the when asked it sure seemed to me like a majority of resonders to that string were going DCC

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=63160042&f=3181048701&m=3091074801&p=1

By the way, I do thank whomever for keeping this thread alive although I don't see why it's such a big deal, this seems like the most information and 'action getting' string I've ever seen. I do give MTH credit for listening and responding. I'm still not ready to buy anything from them yet. Too much litigation in the country, not enough love :-)

[Big_Boy_4005]

OK guys, let's not turn this into the "why I don't like OGR show".[swg]

I think it's safe to say that there are a lot of people who share those feelings. There's no point reliving all the unpleasantness from this past spring when Rich thought he was going to have to charge for the forum. In all fairness to Rich, he does what he feels he has to do controlling the content of HIS forum.

Just think about the relative size of Kalmbach and OGR, and what MTH advertising means to both companies. This is probably the only forum on the web large enough and strong enough to host this discussion. We should all be thanking Kalmbach for the opportunity to discuss this.

[robengland]

Hi JerryZeman

I like your reasoned rebuttal. Just one thing I don't agree with: if the rest of the DCC manufacturers are so squeaky clean:
"The issue is what is MTH going to do to constrain future development of DCC to preserve any competitive advantage that DCS has in train control and features."
...then what do you make of Digitrax patenting their transponding? Surely this will cramp future development of DCC standards to support transponding? http://www.digitrax.com/faqtransponding.php
I understand Digitrax's reasons for doing so, and I am a Digitrax user myself (I think i'm keeping them in business [:D]), but there is a question of objectivity here. Digitrax's ambit is probably more narrow, and they didn't indulge in aggressive tactics to assert their claim, and they did talk to the NMRA first, but seems to me it is in principle the same thing. Let's criticise both companies or neither. I'm already locked into Digitrax decoders AND control system by adopting their transponding system. The DCC space has fragmented. The NMRA is too late with standards.
MTH have behaved like a big ugly corporate and perpetrated a PR disaster. They have wasted precious time and money from the DCC community to strengthen legal positions. Someone is going to have to tackle them on prior art for bi-directional communications. Many like me will never buy MTH as a result. But they have behaved within the law, and they are not alone.
Let's get over it, scratch them off the Christmas wish list, and move on. They aren't going to withdraw the patent, any more than Digitrax are theirs. Pick your manufacturer and commit.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't miss OGR if they went broke and folded.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ben10ben

"You can bash lionel, atlas, 3rd rail, k-line all you want and no problem, but say one thing bad against mth and you are in deep do do."

I've said plenty of bad things about MTH in the past, and never had them deleted. I've also read plenty of negative comments about MTH over there, and a search could probably turn them up.

Read the DCS forum. It's a whole page of problems with and negative comments about MTH.

Well well, I see the top OGR apologist has made an appearance here tonight. How come you didn't bring Mr. MTH with you?[:0]

[ben10ben]

"You can bash lionel, atlas, 3rd rail, k-line all you want and no problem, but say one thing bad against mth and you are in deep do do."

I've said plenty of bad things about MTH in the past, and never had them deleted. I've also read plenty of negative comments about MTH over there, and a search could probably turn them up.

Read the DCS forum. It's a whole page of problems with and negative comments about MTH.

[3railguy]

I see more MTH ads in OGR magazine than I do Lionel. I believe Jim Barret had some interest in MTH when he worked at Davis Electronics. Apparently he was involved in sound recordings for PS-1 boards.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know why Rich Melvin is so protective of MTH?
Does he have a vested interest in them. Yes it is true, as I was a member over there for a couple of years and then just plain had it.
You can bash lionel, atlas, 3rd rail, k-line all you want and no problem, but say one thing bad against mth and you are in deep do do.
It really should have its name change to "The Gospel of Mike Wolf Fourm" as that is basically what it is.
Before Rich Melvin took over it was a 1st class place where you had freedom, but no more. Figure it out, I can;t , don't care to and just got my cancelled subscription refund in the mail saturday. No big loss as all it has in it is more ads. Classic toy trains has the good stuff like the article on track by all the players in O gauge.
By the way did any of you get a questionaire in your email from kalmbach.
Very good idea. Find out just what people want. dave.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by buckthorrne

QUOTE: When it comes to MTH, sometimes there are things that people on OGR want to say, but for whatever reason can't, so they come here to CTT. This topic has nothing to do with O gauge, it's about HO and DCC and DCS. But because MTH is involved, a lot of those guys are curious.

Nothing to do with O?
No, I have to disagee on that one.[:)]
The days of the distant cousin hobbies are not quite as pronounced as they once were. With Atlas doing what they do, Lionels attempt?, MTH's entry into HO, and many other smaller companies cross-scale/gauge offerings, their corporate happenings are interesting to many.
As a Hi-Railer, I have really appreciated reading these threads, which really broadened my understanding of other scales which can't totally be a bad thing , can it?
Incidentally I have also enjoyed reading a long thread here and not having it disappear forever from underneath me as I refreshed it to read more posts. Sadly, this has been the case on some other venues.

Jim

You got me Jim, maybe nothing wasn't the right word. It is nice to see my fellow O gaugers step up and be good neighbors on this issue. Maybe it would have been better for me to have said we are only indirectly involved. HO isn't our scale of choice, but we care about their troubles enough to speak out. MTH has been on our radar for a long time, but most of the HO guys have never heard of them until this.

Back in February when this really got going, there were a number of people who were so upset, that they just started bashing MTH. I think I was the first one to step up and say that MTH makes some very nice products, and I posted this photo.



After that, the focus turned to the patent and it's fallout.

We have come so far on this topic. It started out with Andy TELLING everyone MTH's position, and now we are at a point where MTH is actually LISTENING. I didn't do this, everyone did, especially Jerry Zeman. He threw down the gauntlet, and to his credit, Andy has picked it up.[^][8D]

[3railguy]

Yes, only certain individuals have flaming rights on the OGR forum. I had a post deleted once where I flamed some moron for calling HO people weenies. They're a tight nit group.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005
Antonio, speaking of clubs, the OGR forum is really one too. It's a tough one to get into. I'm sure it's as much fun once you are accepted, but being accepted is not as easy as it is here. That's what the other guys are complaining about. Definately a different culture over there.
When it comes to MTH, sometimes there are things that people on OGR want to say, but for whatever reason can't, so they come here to CTT. This topic has nothing to do with O gauge, it's about HO and DCC and DCS. But because MTH is involved, a lot of those guys are curious.

BigBoy's statements are totally accurate. This subject could never be discussed on the OGR forum. The moderator Melvin quickly deletes any posts that are critical of MTH. However, Mr. Tony Lash, who is the biggest MTH backer of them all, can get on the OGR forum and trash Lionel all he wants without deletion That is a fact!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: When it comes to MTH, sometimes there are things that people on OGR want to say, but for whatever reason can't, so they come here to CTT. This topic has nothing to do with O gauge, it's about HO and DCC and DCS. But because MTH is involved, a lot of those guys are curious.

Nothing to do with O?
No, I have to disagee on that one.[:)]
The days of the distant cousin hobbies are not quite as pronounced as they once were. With Atlas doing what they do, Lionels attempt?, MTH's entry into HO, and many other smaller companies cross-scale/gauge offerings, their corporate happenings are interesting to many.
As a Hi-Railer, I have really appreciated reading these threads, which really broadened my understanding of other scales which can't totally be a bad thing , can it?
Incidentally I have also enjoyed reading a long thread here and not having it disappear forever from underneath me as I refreshed it to read more posts. Sadly, this has been the case on some other venues.

Jim

[Big_Boy_4005]

Jerry, as long as everyone is giving you suggestions, here's mine. Since you are going to be cleaning anyway, it wouldn't hurt to invite a couple of other guests. One or two people from Kalmbach would be excellent observers. Two names at the top of my list would be Andy Sperandeo and *** Christiansen. There are a lot of other interested and qualified people at Kalmbach if those two aren't available. Of course you will have to OK this with Andy first as part of your deal.

If the test is successful, then MTH deserves all the good PR associated with it. If not, the silence will speak volumes.

Guys, it really doesn't matter what engines MTH brings to this test. This is a test of DCS on an existing HO layout which is wired for DCC. As I see it, the real issues in this test are: How easily does DCS tie into an existing layout, especially one that is not necessarily very simple? How compatible is DCS with DCC? How well does a DCS equiped engine perform under "normal" layout conditions?

These are all factors that are important to conusmers, and ultimately to MTH. Keep in mind that DCS was developed for 3 rail O running on AC track power. How well does it translate into HO?

Inquiring minds want to know ! [swg]

[Anonymous]

Jerry, Just borrow some DCS locos from friends, Besides, If MTH is OK with having friends visit during the demonstration, those friends who use DCS would LOVE to get DCS tips from the MTH horse's mouth.

[Anonymous]

Way to go Jerry. I'm sure that you and Andy will have LOTS to talk about. You may end up having his as a house guest for a couple of days.[;)]

Jim

[cmarchan]

To JerryZeman,

I realize you will not be participating in this forum until the results of your demonstration, but I would like to place the following suggestion. I recommend using M.T. H. equipment supplied by a dealer, currently IN STOCK. This will eliminate the opportunity for M.T.H. to "tweak", "fine tune" or "modify" control systems or locomotives to maximize their chances for a successful demonstration.

Just a thought....

[simon1966]

At any given point in time, how many HO scale locomotives are avaialble on the market that are compatible with DCC? If you include pre-announcements, out of production but still available at train shows, all those road numbers and road names, there must be hundereds manufactured by at least a dozen key manufacturers. This is the choice that a DCC or DC modeller has available to them. Then take into account the number of locomotives that a modeller has on the roster already that can either run on DCC or be converted to run on DCC. MTH will offer their new locomotives into this market and assuming they have their pricing in order and have chosen road names and models for which there is a demand, will have little problem selling out the limited production run. If on the other hand you are an HO DCS user what is your choice for motive power? How big is your choice ever going to be? Hornby, in introducing the new HO scale live steam engines, have also introduced a new control system to the HO market that is not compatible with what we already have. The sentiment on the "horny" thread was that it is an interesting curiosity but with the control system being different not likely to attract a big audience. I think it is likely that both DCS and Hornby live steam will end up as very limited niche products with small followings in HO. DCS may well be superior to DCC in all respects, but as a control system it has a massive hurdle to overcome. The inability to run the millions of cherished locomotives on our layouts and in the stores today. This is a big marketing challenge and one that will be interesting to watch unfold.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Karl, I've been in a bunch of clubs over the years. Part of the fun of this hobby is meeting people who share a common interest. What I've noticed about the forum is that once people start calling each other by their first names, it takes on a whole different feel. Much more like a club, just no layout.

Antonio, speaking of clubs, the OGR forum is really one too. It's a tough one to get into. I'm sure it's as much fun once you are accepted, but being accepted is not as easy as it is here. That's what the other guys are complaining about. Definately a different culture over there.

Many of the guys from OGR are members here because of CTT. I subscribe to both magazines, and MR and Trains. I even had a subscription to Garden Railways for a while.

When it comes to MTH, sometimes there are things that people on OGR want to say, but for whatever reason can't, so they come here to CTT. This topic has nothing to do with O gauge, it's about HO and DCC and DCS. But because MTH is involved, a lot of those guys are curious.

[Anonymous]

Still in my bookmarks. Knock yourself out.
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=63160042&f=57660482

[AntonioFP45]

Been reading so much about the "OGR" forum. Does anyone here have the web address?

Definitly don't want to join, just want to take a look at it as it should have some interesting posts on there. Only fair since apparently some of the OGR members have been checking this forum out and even posting.

From what I've read from some of you, basically anyone that posts "anti-MTH" sentiments on the OGR forum gets blowtorched. I'm wondering what kind of posts I'll find there.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by darth9x9

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


[snip]
Dave, what you don't realize is that Bill (Darth) and Karl (Kbfcsme) are in the same train club, and are probably talking on the phone with each other. Good one guys.[swg]
[snip]

Elliot,

You are correct in that we belong to the same club. But any time we 'meet' on the forums is purely coincidental.

BC

Sorry Bill, I guess I read too much into your situation. It was still a great joke for this topic.[:D] By the way Big Girl and I are in the same house, and talk on the phone all the time.[:p]

The phone? Why didn't I think of that??????[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]
No foul here Elliott.
Bill and I, (and the rest of the FCSME'ers for that matter) just are like that wherever we meet up. Be it at our homes, the local LHS, or even here, we can't help but mess with each other![}:)]
Isn't that how a club really should be??

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

Elliot: I plead dumb, what does trolling mean. New term to me,.
Dave.

Trolling is making antagonistic or provocative comments to get a rise out of someone or an entire group. A person who does this is called a troll. It is a forum buzz word internet wide, we didn't make it up here.

[ben10ben]

Dave,
Trolling generally refers to a post that is made to serve no other purpose than causing an argument. There are posts that are trolling in that sense, and then there are those well intentioned posts that go that direction. Trolls, though, generally have a past history of making such posts, and will usually never reply to a post once they start it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JerryZeman

Gentlemen;

Mr. Edleman contacted me off list regarding my post. His response was very informative, and he has accepted the opportunity to demonstrate DCS on my railroad.

His decision to demonstrate DCS speaks well of his company's faith in their system's abilities, and I anxiously await to see how well it does. I definitely have a reason to clean the basement better than it has been. [:)]

Mr. Edleman has also indicated that they have been working with the personnel very familiar to the DCC community (I'll leave it to Andy to elaborate further) to ensure that their locomotive offerings meet the DCC standards. Quite frankly, I would have felt a whole lot different about MTH if they would have come out and said that clearly at the onset. They DO appear to be attempting to integrate into the HO marketplace in a non-intrusive manner.

I hope that Mr. Edleman posts the points he raises in his e-mail on this forum, as I feel it goes a long way toward clearing up most of the trepidation that I had relative to their entrance into HO. It is not my place to post it for him.

I will be arranging to meet Andy during the November timeframe, and set up running a demonstration. In the meantime, I'm bowing out of the discussion here, and I will post results of the test when concluded.

regards,
Jerry Zeman

Jerry, that is fantastic!!!! This whole thing may have a happy ending yet. Now all we have to deal with is the legal aspect of the patent, and it's fallout.

I have been giving this whole thing a lot of thought, and I had a rather crazy but creative idea.

It involves a final settlement of the Lionel case for reduced level of cash plus the rights to license TMCC at no aditional charge. Lionel would then be required to produce some of their trains with DCS. This gets both parties out of court, and saves a lot of legal fees. Part of the cash could be used to offset the development costs of DCS, thus removing the pressure of the patent.

This may seem to MTH as if they are coming up short, but if they do something along these lines, in the end they become heros in the eyes of a lot of modelers, and perhaps even an industry leader. They level the playing field with Lionel, they move forward working with the NMRA, stay out of court, and end up with some ca***o boot.

Everyone just wants to have fun playing with their trains. This hobby is expensive enough without having to pay for the manufacturers to sue each other. Now if only someone could convince the Union Pacific to drop it, life would be wonderful.

If the manufacturers really want to increase earnings, maybe they should sponsor more public train shows. Work with clubs and hobby stores to get more children interested trains, and into the hobby. It certainly couldn't hurt.[^]

[Anonymous]

Elliot: I plead dumb, what does trolling mean. New term to me,.
Dave.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by darth9x9

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


[snip]
Dave, what you don't realize is that Bill (Darth) and Karl (Kbfcsme) are in the same train club, and are probably talking on the phone with each other. Good one guys.[swg]
[snip]

Elliot,

You are correct in that we belong to the same club. But any time we 'meet' on the forums is purely coincidental.

BC

Sorry Bill, I guess I read too much into your situation. It was still a great joke for this topic.[:D] By the way Big Girl and I are in the same house, and talk on the phone all the time.[:p]

[JerryZeman]

Gentlemen;

Mr. Edleman contacted me off list regarding my post. His response was very informative, and he has accepted the opportunity to demonstrate DCS on my railroad.

His decision to demonstrate DCS speaks well of his company's faith in their system's abilities, and I anxiously await to see how well it does. I definitely have a reason to clean the basement better than it has been. [:)]

Mr. Edleman has also indicated that they have been working with the personnel very familiar to the DCC community (I'll leave it to Andy to elaborate further) to ensure that their locomotive offerings meet the DCC standards. Quite frankly, I would have felt a whole lot different about MTH if they would have come out and said that clearly at the onset. They DO appear to be attempting to integrate into the HO marketplace in a non-intrusive manner.

I hope that Mr. Edleman posts the points he raises in his e-mail on this forum, as I feel it goes a long way toward clearing up most of the trepidation that I had relative to their entrance into HO. It is not my place to post it for him.

I will be arranging to meet Andy during the November timeframe, and set up running a demonstration. In the meantime, I'm bowing out of the discussion here, and I will post results of the test when concluded.

regards,
Jerry Zeman