M.T.H. Responds To DCC Lawsuit Allegations

[Anonymous]

There is no voice louder, or that gets more attention, than the crashing sound of wallets slamming shut. All the talking in the world gets little attention. The voice of a cash register is the only sound that really matters to a business person.
Like it, buy it. Don't like it, don't buy it. The manufacturers will hear your voice.

[selector]

At some risk to my position, new though it is on these forums, I would like to remind everyone here about an aphorism that was stated over 2000 years ago.

"People gladly believe what they wi***o."
-Ceasar

In other words, we tend to adopt a position quickly based on what we take as fact and what we know from exeprience (doesn't matter whether our understanding of our experience is right or wrong). Then, once aligned with a point of view, we only rarely change our minds because to do som is an admission that we were wrong, hasty, caerless, selfish, and so on.

MTH admits freely that he used proprietary information and designs to begin a business. He offers no canadid self-assessment of that behaviour, but does use the words "guilty as charged". I wish I knew what that means to him....exactly.

On the other hand, if Lionel has used him for contractual purposes, then perhaps we have taken positions based on short facts or erroneous facts. How will each of use determine which? Are we not responsible to educate ourselves with unbiased and reputable sources? What do we tell our children and friends about our decisions when we learn that we were wrong?

I am new to all of this, but with a graduate background in Conflict Analysis, i know that each side holds on to what they either know is the truth, or what they wish were the truth. The latter makes for a very poor basis for understanding and dialogue.

For what it's worth, I do believe that MTH makes a darn good product. I have never owned, even seen one, to my knowledge, but I have to accept that others really are grateful to have one of his locos.

Just thought I would wade in and get us thinking more in terms of having a dialogue instead of the schoolyard taunts.

[Anonymous]

It's been approximately one month since the last post to this topic...just wondering if the test had gone through and what the results were???

Tim

[dinwitty]

I was just checking MTH's website, very impressive with a 3 rail O scale Little Joe.

QUOTE: EP-3 Electric Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0 (Scale Wheels) - VirginianCab Nos. 205, 210 & 212

Virginian never had EP-3's.


but MTH seems to be in O scale/Tinplate.
BLI is in HO.

I am not doing O scale.

This hobby is made up of a lot of small manufacturers to large ones, selfish lawsuits just dont play well for the enjoyment of the hobby.
Are we going to get buried in litigation just about how a sound system works?

[Anonymous]

My take on MTH is a little different than what I have read. I see MTH putting Lionel into bankruptcy and quite possibly trying to take over Lionel in liu of the enormous financiual settlement the courts have imposed. There could not be, in a hobby as small as model railroading, any firm capable of paying a $40 million lawsuit and remaining in business. I do firmly believe that MTH, with all their lawsuits, is not trying to stifle the DCC market but is trying to force every single one of their competitors out of business so they become the single source for all new control technologies. I believe they intend to force all their competition into the same straits they put Lionel. A more reasonable lawsuit, provided Lionel did evil, might be to sue for a sum that MTH may have a chance of collecting, not for a sum that puts a competitor into the hopper. MTH may succeed with whatever they plan to do, but I believe they will prove to be their own undoing in the end. Just my opinion.

Tom

[Anonymous]

I received my BLI K4 about sixty days ago. The detail is excellent and MTH has a long way to go if they want to bring out a better model of the K4.
I have tried to reach MTH by email on a matter concerning one of the #1 scale engines, but they do not respond. I would not put much confidence in their service if they do not respond to email within a month or so.

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

BTW guys,

I remember that on the other MTH related thread a modeler with good intent volunteered to have MTH perform a test with their K4 on his layout.

Somehow, it feel through. Anyone know what happened?

Hi Antonio;

I think you are referring to my offer. Andy Edleman and I last talked at Trainfest. He indicated that they would not have their K-4 ready for testing until sometime after January. I also offered to test DCS on my railroad providing that:

1. WIll not damage my switch machine decoders
2. Will not damage my Powershield and PS-ARs
3. If the above is possible, then I can only test on half of my railroad, which doesn't allow me to see how well DCS response to voltage drop through the railroad (my extension sees a voltage drop of appx. 3 VAC with heavy load due to wire inductance).

I'm awaiting further communication from Andy.
regards,
Jerry

[Anonymous]

Mark,

Excellent idea separating the wheat from the chaff so that we can based opinions on the actual issues. After reading the several posts on this and other threads (including the post from the MTH folks) I feel that MTH could have handled this much better, in a friendly cooperative way rather than the way they did. This alone is enough to tick me off. This is a small hobby. What affects one company will affect others. MTH doesn't seem to be acting in a way that shows they care about the hobby. While a person does run a business to make money (i have no problem with that), the successful companies that have lasted for years have realized that they can be most profitable over the long haul when the hobby as a whole benefits. MTH doesn't seem to be of this ilk.

[Anonymous]

When I first started posting on this thread, and other previous MTH vs Model railroading threads on this forum, I feel I was reactionary. At some point I started to wonder if I (and the rest of us here) really even knew what was going on, or if we were simply up in arms about information which was speculative or even fabricated about the issues. I have always wanted a clear and accurate description of the MTH issues and how they may/are effecting the rest of us in this hobby.

All I know for certain is:

1). A law suit between Lionel and MTH has been completed. MTH has won and was awarded a devastating award from Lionel, which Lionel is fighting.

2). There is tension between MTH's DSC and NMRA's DCC. The DCC community has concerns MTH will bring suit over this or a suit is already in progress.

3). We perceive MTH to be law suit happy and speculate they are not a friendly entity in the model railroading community.

Do any of us have any further substantiated information about these issues? If lawsuits are in progress, information may be difficult to obtain.

What I'm really trying to say here is, lets separate the wheat from the chaff and quit speculating about the issues!

[Anonymous]

Well guys, I hate to sitr the pot again, but Mr. Wolf seems to be doing some damage control! My father-in-law (who is not a model railroader) stumbled on a article about the Lionel vs. MTH suit in one of his business magazines. The magazine is called Inc., and it's in the February 2005, issue. Within the first paragraph, I could tell there was going to be a whole lotta whinning from MTH, and a VERY one sided article. I'm sure this was meant to be some form "oh, look at me and how pitiful my story is" to try to sway those fellow modelers who sit on the fence on this issue.

The article portrays MTH as the innocent victim to Lionel's attempts to force him out of business, but fails to address MTH's recent actions against other maufacturers.

I came away from the article disliking Mr. Wolf and MTH even more than I did before. Nice try MTH.

I checked the Inc. website and it seems they haven't updated the site to reflect the newest issue. The site is www.inc.com if anyone is interested in checking back to see if the article is available online in the future.

[dinwitty]

if you invent a new communication capability, you create incompatibility problems with current systems. NMRA is all about compatibility, and that all equipment is capable to run on all systems.

The average modeler could care less what the manufacturers do except say...why the heck doesnt this run on my tracks?

Thats an arguement you don't want and you lose sales on that alone.
I am watching systems develop and already hear about one system that wont completly on older systems and I go..onoooo

The hobbyist should be your number one concern for their enjoyment of the hobby.
Purpose of patents as about rights of ownership of a design and use thereof in a product and financial rights of use.
Please get your issues settled so we can enjoy the hobby better!!!
Its sad to read a disclaimor "this feature removed for this reason or other"
I may as well get a buzz saw and cut my model in half as the value fun worth isnt there to enjoy the removed feature.
If this hobby gets so mixed up in corporate lawsuit litigation, we all lose.

We're here for the fun of the hobby, I never heard of lawsuits in all of the early
era's of the hobby.

[Anonymous]

One thing that wiill allways remain true is what goes around comes around MTH will be affected by its decisions but rather than speak badly again of their buisness practice I can only say I would give up modeling before I would let one single dollar of my money go to MR.Wolf. Terry.

[AntonioFP45]

Re: BEMF

Got this from member of a DCC forum so I can't confirm that it is factual. Supposedly, the BEMF feature will be active on the Tsuanmi.

I've written Soundtraxx before and received no responses (understandable). But it would be wonderful if this were true as a lot of us do enjoy ultra-smooth low speed control.

[gvdobler]

I hope "mike" ends up in the soup line.
Never buy their product.

[trolleyboy]

Antonio , thanks for the encouragement I felt that I may have come on a bit strong it's hard not to be petty and catty when something truly boils your blood, and yes we will speak with our wallets hopefully the sound of BLI's cash registers will drown out MTH's HO divisions tears.I hope also that BLI and others continue to share resoruces and keep our hobby moving forward I hate seeing us taking two steps backwards all the time. Though when you've shot yourself in the foot you tend to hop around in circles. Besides if the "tea party" were to happen I'm sure it would break some EPA codes. Rob

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Trolley Boy,

This sitution with MTH has been a hot one for many modelers. It's doubtful, though, that we would have anything like the "Tea Party" since the equipment is so expensive and most of us are on tight budgets. It's back to the old adage that most of us will speak VERY STRONGLY with our wallets

You and Jennifer put it well. Whether we support or dislike MTH's actions, the HO and N scale DCC arenas were hit, but now it's good to see them moving forward again in command control.

For MTH, the sad thing about being the "bad business guy" is that your motives will always be under scrutiny by the skeptics, even if the intentions are not ill willed. As stated several pages back, a number of modelers seem to agree that MTH introducing the K4 was intended to rub salt in the face of BLI and QSI. This may not even have been the case at all, but it seems that MTH further shot itself in the foot with this one.

We should keep an open mind but I admit that it did make me wonder why MTH didn't go for a Milwaukee Rd Hiawath Hudson or other steamer that modelers have been wanting to see for years.

10-4!

[trolleyboy]

I just had one other thought as well with all the bad feelings towards MTH mine included I hope the first arrival of the new HO product from MTH dosen't spark a west coast version of the Boston Tea party! As the old saying (okay tv comersial) you told to friends I told two friends and so on and so on and so on and: well you get the picture[B)] [:D] Rob

[AntonioFP45]

BTW guys,

I remember that on the other MTH related thread a modeler with good intent volunteered to have MTH perform a test with their K4 on his layout.

Somehow, it feel through. Anyone know what happened?

[trolleyboy]

[#ditto] I agree with Jennifer one can't help but think the worst of co like MTH.They are hurting the hobby the more they pu***he more other manufacturers will be forced to push back. This will take away from everyone's developement time and further slow down the furthering of our hobby. One also wonders that if these type of suits keep moveing forward what will the outcome be. One super manufacture who can charge what they want? Hopefully not but as some of the smaller guys get squished or scared off by bully tactics the only people who will be hurt are the hobbyists who want to create build and enjoy. Prices on hobby products are spiralling up do to production costs as it is (I understand this)but all this unneccesary legal posturing is forcing even more money out of the companies forced to defend themselves whether they are wrong or not is beside the point, my point is we the hobby buying public will suffer for this so I as a life long HO'r can't even begin to contemplate supporting MTH sorry if this burns a bit but it has to be said. Rob

[Anonymous]

I will never buy an MTH product. and I will encourage EVERYONE I know to not buy an MTH product. It has nothing to do with quality, but everthing to do with giving money to unethical people. I had a whole lot more on this post originally, but it was so full of spit and venum, I decided to remove it. Sometimes it har to hold one's tongue in the presence of such BS as MTH is doing. Too bad, they have good quality products, but such bad ethics.........

[Anonymous]

anyone who sues their competitors for no reason is a danger to the hobby. Perhaps we should all just boycott everything MTH. Maybe then they (Mike Wolfe) will then get the message to BACK OFF!!

[PennsyHoosier]

Cheers! indeed! [tup][tup][tup]

[AntonioFP45]

Thanks Pennsy!

I feel very honored, by you and the guys especially considering that I myself "screw up" from time to time here as well.

Cheers![:D][8D][tup]

[PennsyHoosier]

I'll post this here--though I could do so elsewhere...

Antonio has done a remarkable job in keeping this discussion focused on issues, not individuals. Thanks for that, my friend. It is no small feat in the currently heated atmosphere.

[AntonioFP45]

cjm89,railman

Thanks so much!

I've been visiting the CTT Forum. Some of the guys on there are friendly and receptive. It's good for all of us to foster good Public Relations with each other across these forums.

Peace and Cheers!

[railman]

Amen! There is a line between disagreements and arguments, between personal attacks and constructive criticism. Although I own neither MTH or Lionel, the discussion between the camps should always be civil- let the facts do the talking.

[Anonymous]

Antonio, you post some of the most sensible stuff on here. I don't believe I've ever read a post by you where you let your "thoughts and not your brain do your typing."

Any flaming on this thread is unneccessary, especially at each other...

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill Conner

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45
BigBoy was being challenged but he's handled it well and cooled Teddybear's torpedo launchers.

I hardly agree with this statement. I think "The Truth of Trains" hit the nail on the head.
Big Boy's inflated ego makes me LMAO! His technical knowledge of trains is above average but his knowledge of business and the legal profession is another story. He can post pictures of all the MTH stuff he owns, but the fact is, he's biased against MTH.

QUOTE: LMAO!

...........Nasty Bill, don't you think?!! [tdn]

Anyway.......it's just as easy to say that You're biased towards MTH.

The point I was making is that we can reply to each other without taking a dip in the sewer! Your flaming reply above is a perfect example of what we should not be doing!!

Bill (and Teddybear) whether you're for or against MTH is irrelevant. We're discussing the issues so let's stick to them. If you feel that a poster's facts are incorrect, then point it out to him, intelligently!! [4:-)][tup] You will get a great deal of RESPECT for doing it that way. The "LMAO" and "Inflated ego" GARBAGE is so unnecessary. [V][B)]

A year ago BentnoseWllie and I had a disagreement on what constituted a "modern diesel" locomotive. Turned out that he was correct on his points, yet, he did not insult me! As a result I have the highest of respect for him and look forward to his posts!

UP8998 was constantly hurling "Flames" at other posters. As a result, Bergie did "kick him out" of the Forum. Quite a few Forum posters that remember UP8998 laugh whenever his name is mentioned! [V]

Let's keep the respect! [:)][:D][8D][;)][8)]

[cwclark]

I got this thing about companies (or anyone) that is sue happy ...you won't or ever see any MTH stuff on my layout....Chuck[:D]