M.T.H. Responds To DCC Lawsuit Allegations

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45
BigBoy was being challenged but he's handled it well and cooled Teddybear's torpedo launchers.

I hardly agree with this statement. I think "The Truth of Trains" hit the nail on the head.
Big Boy's inflated ego makes me LMAO! His technical knowledge of trains is above average but his knowledge of business and the legal profession is another story. He can post pictures of all the MTH stuff he owns, but the fact is, he's biased against MTH.

[AntonioFP45]

Hello guys,

PennsyHoosier, BigBoy, CJM,.....as you know I enjoy reading your posts.

I was over on the CTT forum again. Just as here, a lot of the guys on CTT make intelligent posts while some others "bring out the blowtorches!" As you probably know by now, there is a "Tribute to MIke Wolf" thread running on that forum and some torpedoes started flying.

Since it's been getting "hot" I suggested over there that when posting, regardless on which side of the Lionel or QSI issue one is on, to keep the responses cool and level headed.It is difficult but it's helpful if extreme emotions are not added into the mix! This is what (I hope) Teddybear understands as he is an intelligent but very passionate poster .

The point I attempted to get across is that this is "Not A Personal Issue" against Mr. Wolf! Most of us have never even met him or seen his photo! The issue: The legal & business tactics that he and his company have used in this situation that resulted in the HO & N DCC markets being affected. Plain as apple pie!

Responses like "You're an MTH hater" or "QSI deserves to be shutdown!" don't produce intelligent resposes that we can reply to, reasonably. We're supposed to be enjoying the forum, not getting stressed from it!

BigBoy was being challenged but he's handled it well and cooled Teddybear's torpedo launchers. The CTT guys enjoy trains also and it would be good to maintain a positive relationship with our brethren over there.

Peace and High Greens!

[PennsyHoosier]

Bigboy, you are RIGHT! Jerry has really carried the water here. But the team has done very well--you included, my friend.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PennsyHoosier

This measured responses on this whole thread have been touchdowns. The only fumble was by Mr. Bear

When it comes to scoring touchdowns on this topic, it is Jerry Zeman who gets my vote for MVP. Though this has been a good solid team effort.[;)][8D]

[Anonymous]

Hey Amedleman:

If your Pennsy K-4 in HO doesn't sell well, don't be surprised. You could produce a "fully loaded" CB&Q O-5 Northern and I wouldn't buy it. MTH has pushed some VERY unpopular ideas at us HO guys, and, read the rest of this thread for yourself, we aren't particularly fond of MTH.

Compitition in HO was very friendly, and more about model quality than the legal doings of your competitors, until you guys walked in.

Stewart, Life-Like, Athearn, Atlas, Kato, and Intermountain all make great locomotives, and I consider them all good companies. Same in DCC with Digitrax, NCE, CVP, and Soundtraxx.

MTH, well now that would be a very different story![:(!]

[sundayniagara]

Amen on MTH out to destroy Lioinel! I would, however, like to see a DCS demo when the K4 comes out, as I don't have a lot invested in DCC.
Mark

[PennsyHoosier]

This measured responses on this whole thread have been touchdowns. The only fumble was by Mr. Bear

[AntonioFP45]

BigBoy,

Now that was a touchdown![4:-)][tup]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well Mr Bear, it seems that you are pushing an unpopular position around here. I may be the engine on this train, but I have a lot of people behind me.

Thanks gang!!

For the record, I am not anti MTH, however I do have two major complaints with the company, and am not afraid to voice them.

First is DCS. In my opinion, it's invention has served as the single most damaging "innovation" in model railroading history, bar none. Since it's release, it has divided the O gauge world, and it's resulting patent, has trampled the HO and N scale world. While the Lionel and Flyer wars of the 50's were heated, they did not disrupt the other segments of the hobby.

Second is MTH's propensity for litigation. No other model manufacturer in the history of the hobby, has spent so much time and effort in court, attacking it's competitors. This is an undenyable fact. While MTH claims that it needs to do this to defend itself, it is clearly the opinion of many, that they go out of their way to create challenging situations.

If MTH wasn't so hell bent on destroying Lionel, and just focused on making quality trains, we wouldn't be here having this conversation. Actions speak louder than words, and the model railroading world is not blind. We as vocal hobbiests and consumers are not the ones damaging MTH's reputation. MTH is doing that to itself.

As for me, presonally, I own, and am very happy with, many MTH products, but no engines.

[PennsyHoosier]

GREAT POINT, dkelly. You've captured what I was driving at with the sense of "community" that we model railroaders have.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps we should learn a lesson from Model Railroader and RMC. The two of them are competitors. Each of them trying to earn market share from the other. How do they do it? By both striving to be better, not bashing the other. In fact whenever someone from either retires, there is always a letter from the other wishing them well. There have also been numerous photographs of the staff of both together at various meets and conventions. The result for us? Two superior magazines that are great to read and both are doing well. The result for the hobby? Two great magazines each working to promote and grow the hobby in their own way.

[PennsyHoosier]

I'll have to let you folks who know more argue out Mike Wolf's role in the O gauge renaissance. However, what we're seeing now is a potentially devestating situation for the larger model railroading community. We are a sizeable community, but not a huge one. The aggressive actions of one individual/company have wide ranging effects that span the gauges. What we see in O now could be the case in HO later, and so on, and so on. The use of overly aggressive legal tactics in the MR community simply is bad form. It's really too bad because a little restraint could have led to great things.

[Paul3]

Ted E. Bear wrote:

QUOTE: No one in the hobby today, or in the past 50 years, can even come close to his accomplishments. I suggest you take the time to learn about his achievements rather than taking cheapshots at him.

Oh, puh-lease. Mike Wolf has done more than anyone else in the last 50 years??? Are you serious?

Let me throw some names at you:

Al Kalmbach
Linn Westcott
John Allen
Irv Athearn
W. K. Walthers
Gorden Varney

Any of these people ring a bell, Ted E. Bear?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[ben10ben]

I don't intend to stir the pot more, the fact is that anyone who claims that Mike Wolf was the only one responsible for the O gauge hi-rail movement/rebirth simply doesn't know as much about O gauge history as they claim to.

Williams and Weaver were making excellent scale brass trains back when Mike was just a teenager putting together trains in his parents' basement. The O gauge revival was already in the makings when Mike severed his ties with Lionel, and was gaining momentum every year. There's certainly no denying that Mike played a part in it, but all he really did was jump start it. It would have happened whether or not Mike ever came along, it just would've been a couple of years later.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Quote by TeddyBear,

Whose record and proven by whom? I don't consider all of these false allegations in this thread as a matter of record or the truth. I think Mr. Edleman did his best to explain the facts and then he and Mr. Wolf were attacked unfairly by people who know nothing about MTH and it's history. And despite what he thinks, Big Boy does not represent, nor does he speak for the O gauge community. He clearly has an axe to grind with MTH and Mr. Wolf for some unknown reason. He needs to get his facts straight before spouting off!!! I joined this forum yesterday but have lurked here for quite some time. I consider this a matter of fairness, and fairness has not been shown to Mr. Wolf and MTH.[:(!]

Teddy Bear With all due respect, you certainly are correct when you say that you joined this forum yesterday and "have lurked for quite some time".

It's funny, we have never seen anything on here that states that BigBoy speaks for the O-Gauge community. BigBoy, however, has earned the respect of many of us here (myself included) and has often encouraged posters to be positive and avoid "flaming". These qualities are the marks of good leadership. No one appointed BigBoy as a representative for O scale or 3 Rail, but he is very knowledgeable and he certainly makes an excellent "unofficial" representative for the Forum, hands down!
Take some time to read through many of his past postings.

With all due respect, "Spouting off?" The hostiliity in your comments here strongly suggest that you're doing the spouting off.

TeddyBear, the facts have been explained quite clearly, by Mr. Ebdelman (sic) himself. No one's making up anything! And in his defense Big_Boy_4005 has not ever shown in his posts that he has any "Axe to Grind" with MTH or Mr. Wolf. Plain and simple, Mike Wolf has made some good accomplishments for O scale and 3 rail, but he used strong arm legal tactics to help derail DCC and in the process incur the disapproval and distrust of the HO & N scale communites which are uniquely different from what MTH has been traditonally involved in. Are you saying that the overwhelming number of modelers whose posts were unfavorable towards Mike Wolf were wrong?..................... End of Story.

No hostility intended towards you, Teddy Bear, but that's just how it is. Winston Churchill was a historical figure that I've always admired, yet it's has been proven that he allowed the Lusitania to be sunk by a German submarine back in 1917 so the U.S would join in on the war. Churchill had made some very good accompllishments, but the Lusitania has been a very ugly stain on his record.

And so it goes...........................................................................

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Whoa, there Teddy Bear! Take it easy! No one is taking cheap shots here! Much of what has been discussed about MTH and owner MTH can be proven and is on record!

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ted E. Bear

You guys who are trashing Mike Wolf are doing it out of ignorance. Unless you've been active in O gauge, you know nothing about Mr. Wolf and his background. He happens to be the catalyst who put O gauge back on it's feet. No one in the hobby today, or in the past 50 years, can even come close to his accomplishments. I suggest you take the time to learn about his achievements rather than taking cheapshots at him.[:(!]

Whoa, there Teddy Bear! Take it easy! No one is taking cheap shots here! Much of what has been discussed about MTH and owner MTH can be proven and is on record!

[Anonymous]

You guys who are trashing Mike Wolf are doing it out of ignorance. Unless you've been active in O gauge, you know nothing about Mr. Wolf and his background. He happens to be the catalyst who put O gauge back on it's feet. No one in the hobby today, or in the past 50 years, can even come close to his accomplishments. I suggest you take the time to learn about his achievements rather than taking cheapshots at him.[:(!]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Big_Boy_4005,

Thanks so much! I think I understand a little better now. I did think that the moderator's name with "Overlord" in it was ringing a bit of arrogance, but looks like it is more of a comic interest "handle", just as my forum name "rings" of my favorite diesel locomotive. Add to that, his constant "warnings" made me think that he was "cracking the overlord whip", when in fact he had been dealing with some posts that I hadn't been aware of. .

I just hope that my posts over at CTT didn't cause "alienation" between our groups. As I basically stated, we're linked by our enjoyment of trains.

Peace!

No problem Antonio. Like I said over there, your comments were like a breath of fresh air. Bob is a 3 railer, you caught him off guard. I was going to say that Bob is a 3 railer like me, but that really isn't quite the case. From what I have gathered, his interests within the 3 rail world are quite different from mine. That's fine, live and let live.[;)][:)]

My interests are more that of a typical HO or N scale operator. I moved away from the more toy-like aspects as the 3 rail scale movement came on line. I have too large an investment in 3 rail to switch now, or I might have gone back to HO.[:0][;)]

Come to think of it, Bob is the only staff member, that I'm aware of, that uses a screen name when posting. Everyone else just uses their name in some form or another.

[AntonioFP45]

Big_Boy_4005,

Thanks so much! I think I understand a little better now. I did think that the moderator's name with "Overlord" in it was ringing a bit of arrogance, but looks like it is more of a comic interest "handle", just as my forum name "rings" of my favorite diesel locomotive. Add to that, his constant "warnings" made me think that he was "cracking the overlord whip", when in fact he had been dealing with some posts that I hadn't been aware of. .

I just hope that my posts over at CTT didn't cause "alienation" between our groups. As I basically stated, we're linked by our enjoyment of trains.

Peace!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Jerry, they do. [;)] We've been patient this long, we can wait a little longer. I expect that the holiday season will have people distracted and busy for the next 6 weeks anyway. I agree with Dkelly, the pictuers look great. Have fun.[:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Antonio, thanks for the visit on CTT, now you have seen how the other half lives. It is a strange and chaotic world over there sometimes. That's part of the reason Bob Keller has been so active of late.

His screen name sounds ominous, Ogaugeoverlord, but I think he really likes comic book superheros in addition to trains.

I agree that one of our 3 rail trolls got loose over here on MR, but I think we got a pretty good grip on that topic, and it doesn't seem to be a real problem. Bob probably had no idea that I invited you over to CTT. The thing is that you don't know Bob, and he doesn't know you, but I feel that I know both of you.

Bob has been, perhaps, a little over protective of the CTT forum the last couple weeks, but I know he means well. He may have thought you were just trying to stir things up more. I know different.[;)]

I was in the bathroom yesterday when I had a revelation. Now the bathroom is not necessarily where I do my best thinking. When it comes to MTH, we have seen over zealous comments from both directions, Lionel can do no wrong, and Mike can do no wrong. Of course most of us know that both of those positions are wrong. Where is the truth?

I think that all of the trouble we are experiencing today can be traced back to one single event. That event was mentioned early in this topic, on page 6, by Dave Krebiehl, VP of R&D for MTH.

QUOTE: First of all, MTH developed the DCS system in order to provide our O gauge customers with a command control solution other than TMCC. Even if we were interested in licensing TMCC at the time, you can imagine the terms may not have been favorable.

These words have stuck with me since I first read them, because through all of the finger pointing, name calling, and other nonsense, they ring true.

Had Lionel licensed TMCC to MTH back when it first came out, none of this would be happening now. All of this begs the question, did Lionel offer and MTH refuse or did MTH just decide to ignore Lionel and do their own thing? Either way, that was the turning point in this war, and it has all been down hill since.

[Anonymous]

Photos look pretty good to me. You may think your photos are substandard but your modeling sure isn't!! I especially like your backdrops. The blending of colors came out great!

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by deschane

Dug this outa the archives, needs to be resurrected and continued, given the new light brought to the matter!

Train fest in Milwaukee has passed, I wonder what Jerry Zeman found out? My understanding was that he was going to meet up with Andy Edleman to set up the DCS test. That is more to the point on this topic.

Some of us have longer memories.[swg]
[:0][;)]

Hi Elliott;

Great minds think alike. [:)] Yes, I owe an update to the group, unfortunately, I don't have much to report.

Yes, I did meet Andy Edleman at Trainfest, and we discussed the test. They did not have their HO locomotive on display, and it evidently is still at their Michigan facility undergoing final development.

Andy stated that he didn't think that they would be ready before the end of the year.

I've also alerted Andy to a concern on my end. The extension of my railroad is wired with Tony's Train Exchange Powershields, and my new staging yard uses the Tony's PS-AR auto-reversing circuit breakers (the staging yard is an eight track reverse loop). I am also using Switch-it switch machine decoders on the extension. I'm not about to hook up this portion of the railroad to DCS if I'm looking at a possible failure of these devices. I don't think there is a lot of risk, but I'm not about to take the financial hit if something craps the bed during the test.

At the very least, I will test it on the portion of my railroad that is not using the Powershields and Switch-it decoders, which is still a fairly sizeable railroad (28x32).

I'll provide further updates as we discuss the test further.

BTW, here is a link of a couple photos of my layout. The web site and pictures are substandard, but it's better than nothing.[:)]

http://home.earthlink.net/~jlzeman/

regards,
Jerry Zeman

[AntonioFP45]

Well,

Went over and posted on the CTT forum. I'm only assuming, but my comment might've contributed to the moderator (Ogaugeoverlord---interesting name) dropped the hint that the QSI litigation topic should stay here on this forum.

On my reply to him, I basically mentioned that the MTH/Lionel litigation has been discussed here quite a bit (which has nothing to do with HO or N ) , yet no one here has ever suggested that the discussion be kept on the CTT forum.

I remember a while back that someone mentioned that "a few people" on the Larger Scale forums can be a little defensive on these issues. I'm beginning to believe this!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Very good Mark, this dog will have it's day. (again) But sleep for now.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Your right, Elliot, this was the DCC vs DCS thing! I will let "Sleeping dogs lay"!

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by deschane

Dug this outa the archives, needs to be resurrected and continued, given the new light brought to the matter!

I'm not sure that was necessary Mark. This is an entirely different matter, even though it involves MTH. Don't let the Lionel verdict confuse you.

Train fest in Milwaukee has passed, I wonder what Jerry Zeman found out? My understanding was that he was going to meet up with Andy Edleman to set up the DCS test. That is more to the point on this topic.

Some of us have longer memories.[swg]

We have other and better topics available for ragging on MTH about Lionel, and if we don't have one to your liking, check out the CTT forum. They have some hot ones going.[:0][;)]

[Anonymous]

Dug this outa the archives, needs to be resurrected and continued, given the new light brought to the matter!

[Anonymous]

Antonio,

I hope it won't either!! What is it that they say? One bad apple . . . . . . . . lol.

MTH with just 12 employees impacted DCC in North America. One guy with a pistol in Serbia in 1914 impacted the whole world!