I mostly airbrush, and Floquil has always been my paint of choice. I've used Polly Scale for specific colors that were not offered in Floquil and were not easily mixable. Right now, it looks like I'll switch to Tru Color. They don't have the color I generally use as a base, either, but they have something that is close enough I can probably have my assistant Igor formulate it in the lab.
- Mark
richhotrain ahhh, LION, I understand all of that stuff. But the math works simply because it is math, no matter that it disregards other production factors. My point is that the production of Polly Scale is, and can continue to be, profitable. Rich
ahhh, LION, I understand all of that stuff.
But the math works simply because it is math, no matter that it disregards other production factors.
My point is that the production of Polly Scale is, and can continue to be, profitable.
Rich
EXACTLY! Okay, you can go into a Sherwin Williams store & buy a gallon of good paint for around $35.00. And surely they are making a decent profit on that, or they wouldn't be in business. and they make that 1 gallon profit all at once. So, in the costs of manufacturing that callon of paint, what are the production, packaging, labeling & distribution costs? (And this is just an educated guess, based on average retail mark-up). All told, probably no more than $20.00, at the most. So, for the sake of making the point, the profit is $15.00 a gallon.
Now, Pollyscale retails at roughly $6.00 for a 1 oz. bottle and it takes 128 bottles to equal a gallon, so you're over $700.00 a gallon retail. And the retailer will have to sell 128 bottles before a 1 gallon profit is realized. Now, there's a different situation here as far as all the costs go, because instead of just one 1-gallon container, packaging & distribution, you'ge got 128 bottles, labels etc to equal that one callon of paint. (And, yes I realize it's a totally different formulation than house paint.........but Paint is paint & it's manufactured in large batches, either way). So using the same proportions of wholesale costs to retail price, even allowing for 128 bottles & labels cost, the profit margin is STILL going to be at least $250.-$300. per gallon!
And surely with the number of model railroaders out there........on this continent alone........a lot more than 128 bottles of Pollyscale paint per day are going to be sold. Way, WAY more! On average, per day, combined from all selling venueson the continent, it's likely at least multi-hundreds to several thousand. Yes, it's a niche market, but certainly can be a highly profitable one, for the right manufacturer.
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
All of which begs the question, why doesn't Testors sell the Floquil/Polly Scale brand instead of just abandoning it?
Alton Junction
For me I feel like I'm the only model railroader in my town of 50,000. I dont know of anyone else but there must be a few more! LOL. The many times I have been in Hobby Lobby here I have never even seen another person looking at the testors paints (but admittedly I dont live in Hobby Lobby). So I have a hard time imagining selling 128 bottles or 236 bottles of an obscure color of paint per day on a national level. It would be interesting to know what the numbers really are. Also it would be interesting to know if some of those paints are being sold to model manufacturers.
So I threw some gross simple numbers into a spreadsheet. If your little paint buisness needs, say, $300k per year just to stay alive, you would need to sell $833 worth of paint per day. A $1M per year business would require $2778 worth of paint to be sold per day or about 463 bottles per day.
"All of which begs the question, why doesn't Testors sell the Floquil/Polly Scale brand instead of just abandoning it? Rich"
I would not sell the business because that would create a competitor agianst the remaining paint line.
It doesn't scale that way. I'm not going to go into the whole economic process behind that, but you can't proportionally scale pricing like that. There's so many factors involved that the lock-step pricing ratio fails almost immediately.
And you don't know if it can continue to be profitable. None of us do. We don't have their data. People draw the conclusions they want from anecdotal evidence and that's not how a business operates. Well, they could if their plan is to go out of business. Like someone said "the Floquil rack is always empty but the Model Master rack is always full, so that means people want one and not the other." I read it as "Floquil doesn't move as well so the store rarely reorders."
NittanyLion Like someone said "the Floquil rack is always empty but the Model Master rack is always full, so that means people want one and not the other." I read it as "Floquil doesn't move as well so the store rarely reorders."
Like someone said "the Floquil rack is always empty but the Model Master rack is always full, so that means people want one and not the other." I read it as "Floquil doesn't move as well so the store rarely reorders."
Or, it could mean that Floquil is flying off the rack and no one is buying Model Master.
Looks like the Testors Division employees are pretty much getting the same treatment the customers are.
http://www.rrstar.com/blogs/alexgary/x776191577/Testor-Corp-consolidating-operations-cutting-jobs
If you dig back, they were hiring on in September 2012, so the arguements about shrinking market seem to be corporate mindspeak from RPM.
-E-C-Mills "All of which begs the question, why doesn't Testors sell the Floquil/Polly Scale brand instead of just abandoning it? Rich" I would not sell the business because that would create a competitor agianst the remaining paint line.
AND, if they sold the company off, then they would also have to sell off the formulations and if they at some time wanted to return a color formulation to an existing line, they couldn't. By not selling, they also keep the secret recipe so to speak, without additional research.
I can see, I guess, them dropping the Floquil brand because of the thinners and the waste and all. But I'd a thought they would have at least give Polyscale a shot.
As for the cost, I don't think anyone believes there is no profit per bottle or gallon, and a hefty one at that. But profit at what cost? In addition to the cost of the paint itself and the bottle, packaging, and shipping, you also have the "factory", labor of the workers and all associated expenses incurred there, and of course the expenses associated with producing hazardous waste, and the wages and cost and profits of everyone handling that bottle of paint all the way to the Hobby Shop. Now. There is no question that MR's buy paint, and plenty of it BUT, not in the quantity of general use paints such as Rustoleum, the Krylons, house paints or even automotive paints. So as for the cost, if the end user paid let's say $2.00 a bottle, then (and I really am guessing at these numbers but I think you can see my point) and after the Hobby Shop pays his cost he makes say...15 cents or even a quarter....how much would he have to sell say a week to make it worth keeping it in stock? Someone is making a large profit and it may be the Hobby Shop and I hope it is, but considering the volume of sales at the individual store, they would have to. Percentages don't work here, because they would look good, but if the shop made .25 a bottle, they would have to sell 40 bottles a week to make $10 profit a WEEK. Almost an hours wages for one employee, (and in some places less) not counting overhead costs etc....Now I know there are other items a shop sells, but I think you see my point as to the cost that little bottle of paint being so high. And the same goes for all the way up the line.
Which brings us to us. I have read countless times in the magazine and in the forum and many times in this very thread, of how much paint you have and how long you've had it. Which means what? You haven't been buying it. Now I'm not faulting anyone, I have paint myself and I try very hard to make the paint last as long as I can just like the rest of us but.....If we buy something once and then not again for a year or more....even if we buy 2 bottles at a time, the hobby shops and the manufacturers aren't selling what they are making, it's sitting on the shelves waiting for us to need it. Not just want it, but need it to BUY it. And THAT is not profitable for anyone. We can't just expect a company to make something and hang on to it until we need it. They'll go broke.
The answer? I don't know. I'm certainly not going to run out and buy a bottle of paint every other day just to keep them in business and I doubt anyone else would either.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
richhotrain NittanyLion Like someone said "the Floquil rack is always empty but the Model Master rack is always full, so that means people want one and not the other." I read it as "Floquil doesn't move as well so the store rarely reorders." Or, it could mean that Floquil is flying off the rack and no one is buying Model Master. Rich
That's not how retail works though. You'd have decent backstock to prevent that exact situation from happening. Unless you were, you know, terrible at running a business.
I was talking to my brother this morning. He's an armor modeler (and I was asking him to raid certain colors from northeast Ohio shops after I hit northern Virginia today) and he also speculated that "railroad" on Floquil and Pollyscale was a mistake after the Testors acquisition. Intentionally making your product line a niche isn't great.
One thing to also bear in mind in the manufacting costs vs. retail cost & profit margin is something many folks don't realize: the progression of each step from manufacturing cost to retail price. Having been in both retail & wholesale selling all my life, I can speak with certainty on this. It's at a minimum a 3 step progression & in many cases a 4 step progression. And in each step there is a reasonable profit margin for each part involved (otherwise they would not BE involved). While it CAN vary considerably in each step, on average there is from a 30% to as much as 50% profit margin in each step.
Just to use an example off the op of my head, in round numbers. Lets say you have a product that retails for $100. The consumer buys it from the retailer for $100.. The retailer bought it from the wholesaler, likely for anywhere from between $50. to $75. The wholesaler bought it from the manufacturer likely at a price from $25. to $40. etc, etc.
Point is simply that $100 item item cost the manufacturer no more than $20-$25. to make & ship off to the wholesaler. A lot of people get their slice of the pie along the way. This is why I think that the future for a lot of small price items, like hobby paints, may well lie in the hands of small volume businesses, with lower operating costs, that are more than comfortable with a limited size, niche market.
A few hundred thousand dollars ( or even a couple million dollars) per year in profit on one specific product may not be feasible anymore for a large corporate business, but a small concern, a one man, two man or even a few man operation, could do VERY well on it.
NittanyLion I was talking to my brother this morning. He's an armor modeler (and I was asking him to raid certain colors from northeast Ohio shops after I hit northern Virginia today) and he also speculated that "railroad" on Floquil and Pollyscale was a mistake after the Testors acquisition. Intentionally making your product line a niche isn't great.
Please. Military/armor paint is every bit as specific as model railroad paint, and the market requires that Panzer Grey is labelled Panzer Grey, even if it is a dead ringer for Harbor Mist Grey (just an example, I have no idea if it is). Neither crowd should have to scramble around to guess which blue is Conrail Blue and which blue goes on a Corsair.
Here's a link to a petition for Testor's to continue production of Floquil and Polly Scale paints.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/218027.aspx
And a link to the comment page for the petition.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/218026.aspx
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
Petition! Oh, come on!
Instead of bashing Testor's and parent, for their decision, maybe people should bash the modelers here who have changed over to Scalecoat, Tru-Color, etc.? I'm pro Floquil, but people need to be realistic.
Signing a petition will do NOTHING. This is a done deal, it's over, Find an alternative.
Right now, they have two factories that produce their products. They are closing one and consolidating. The plant they are consolidating to is one quarter the size of the one they are closing. Products and people had to go.
If product sales were still on par with what they were twenty years ago, it MIGHT have a different outcome - but that's not the case. Sales are down to the point it's not viable to maintain a production line for these products. A company is in business to make money. Once profit margins shrink to the point of not making a substantial profit, it's dropped .... much to the dismay of the few people that still use it.
Anyone remember all the petitions to keep Athearn Blue Boxes going ? And more recently, how's those petitions for undecorated engines been working out ? It's a changing hobby. We must learn to adapt and re-invent the way we do things.
Years ago, all I used was Floquil. I saw this transition coming years ago (surprised nobody else did) and changed to products I actually ended up liking better.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark R. Years ago, all I used was Floquil. I saw this transition coming years ago (surprised nobody else did) and changed to products I actually ended up liking better.
Mark, I agree with you. I am surprised that you were the only guy in the entire hobby to see this coming years ago and changed products way back then. Amazing !
MARK R.
Sorry, I'm optimistic, not fatalistic. I like Floquil, you don't. Let's leave it at a difference of opinion. Please post on the "COMMENTS" page instead of the petition. The petition is for NAMES, that's why I made a "comments" page.
I would greatly appreciate it if you moved your post to the "comments" page and removed it form the petition. I'm sure that any other people who want Floquil back and sign the petition would appreciate it as well.
Thanks.
S&S
Edit .... Nevermind - veering off topic ....
Schuylkill and Susquehanna MARK R. Sorry, I'm optimistic, not fatalistic. I like Floquil, you don't. Let's leave it at a difference of opinion. Please post on the "COMMENTS" page instead of the petition. The petition is for NAMES, that's why I made a "comments" page. I would greatly appreciate it if you moved your post to the "comments" page and removed it form the petition. I'm sure that any other people who want Floquil back and sign the petition would appreciate it as well. Thanks. S&S
You'll have to get a moderator to do that.
As for your comment - I'm neither, I'm a realist. The company is moving - they are closing the plant - they are laying off employees - the product will no longer be made. All the wasted bandwidth on the internet won't change their mind.
I also didn't say I didn't like it - I still have lots of the old stuff that's great for weathering. But once the government stuck their nose in the operation, I knew I was going to have to change if I were to stay in business. This move came as no surprise to me.
OK. I'll keep trying anyway.
Milepost 266.2 NittanyLion I was talking to my brother this morning. He's an armor modeler (and I was asking him to raid certain colors from northeast Ohio shops after I hit northern Virginia today) and he also speculated that "railroad" on Floquil and Pollyscale was a mistake after the Testors acquisition. Intentionally making your product line a niche isn't great. Please. Military/armor paint is every bit as specific as model railroad paint, and the market requires that Panzer Grey is labelled Panzer Grey, even if it is a dead ringer for Harbor Mist Grey (just an example, I have no idea if it is). Neither crowd should have to scramble around to guess which blue is Conrail Blue and which blue goes on a Corsair.
Yes, it is, but it doesn't say it on the bottle.
I thought about it and I'm not going to pull my punch: scramble around to do it. Every single other hobby that uses paint does. Learn to mix colors. Its not hard. The overwhelming majority of people that use paint in this world do it every day.
Mark R.
Looking back on it, I'd like to apologize for calling you a fatalist. That was out of line, and I'm sorry.
To all others on this thread, I'm sorry for going off-topic. I couldn't find another way to contact Mark R., and so I apologize to all for diverting this thread.
Schuylkill and Susquehanna Mark R. Looking back on it, I'd like to apologize for calling you a fatalist. That was out of line, and I'm sorry. S&S
No worries here. It's a hot / passionate topic on many forums right now, and different people are going to see it differently.
I felt the same way when Kraft Foods bought Kool-Aid and eliminated my two favorite flavors ! Only thing to do was stock up before it was all gone, and when that ran out, find something else I liked. Change is hard no matter what it is. But sometimes, change can bring surprising results.
Pretty much stated everything I had on this topic just want to post this...
...This too all shall pass.
a year from now we'll probably look back and laugh at all the pot stirring this announcement did.
Where there is a will there is a way. There's quite a few paints still on the market.
Chris
Colorado_Mac NP2626 ...I want discounted prices, don't want to pay manufacturer's suggested retail. And that pretty much sums up the main reason these products are going away.
NP2626 ...I want discounted prices, don't want to pay manufacturer's suggested retail.
...I want discounted prices, don't want to pay manufacturer's suggested retail.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I think its time to lock this thread.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
There have been many comments posted to this thread that assume Testor's decision to close down the Floquil , Poly Scale, and Pactra lines of paint was based on the company's' failure to make a profit from them. Yet none of the company statements that I've seen give that as a reason. The explicit reason given is that the company is closing down old manufacturing facilities and letting workers go in order to consolidate production of its basic lines of paint. The lines to be dropped may well be profitable--but not worth the cost of building a whole new factory and/or continuing to pay current wages and (especially) benefits. At issue, most probably, is the marginal coast of maintaining production rather than actual profitability. That is, the money it would take to continue production would earn more if invested in other endeavors.
A decision based on that conclusion is not likely to be rescinded by Testor's; but it might lead another company with excess plant and workers to consider taking over the lines in question. Still, who might that be? As many have pointed out here, the Floquil line, even as changed by Testor's into an enamel rather than a lacquer type of paint, involves complications due to the unhealthy solvents it uses. And competing model acrylic lines aren't likely to buy up the PolyScale brand in favor of their own paints. Only a non-paint model company is a likely buyer: Someone like Weaver models owners whose rolling stock line is complemented by Scalecoat paints. A small company seeking to expand might well find the risk worth taking, given the guaranteed (though perhaps small) fan base, especially if--like Weaver Models--it relied on direct internet sales rather than hobby shops to market its line (I suspect a big reason for the Testor's decision is the demise of local hobby shops, once the chief outlet for railroad paints, and that firm's unwillingness to get involved in direct sales). Sad to say, however, it's more likely that Floquil and PolyScale are going the way of Varney and Mantua.
Frank
NP2626 Colorado_Mac NP2626 ...I want discounted prices, don't want to pay manufacturer's suggested retail. And that pretty much sums up the main reason these products are going away. Colorado_Mac, Your blaming me, a modeler who still builds kits and buys paints, as the reason some paints are being phased out?!? You do understand that the manufacturer sells the paints to the distributor or retailer for a different price than the retailer finally sells them for, don't you? You can pay what ever price you want for whatever you buy, that's fine with me. However, I like to save a little money when I buy things and when I buy at discounted prices, that has nothing to do with what the manufacturer is paid for his products.
I can't imagine quibbling over the price of a bottle of Floquil. If a hobby shop stocks paint, expecially if they have the entire Floquil product line, I can't begrudge them an extra 50 cents to a dollar for the one random color I happen to need.
rdgk1se3019 I think its time to lock this thread.
To be honest, seconded.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
I agree - lock it. This has been debated long enough and nothing we say is going to change this situation.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....