Pirate,
If you had a bottle of Floquil,go bad before you used it all,,,,,you did not put the cap on properly..
I still have half empty bottles,20 yrs old and still use them,without a problem..
Cheers,
Frank
AVRNUTThe point is that despite the "ready to run" market, there are still a LOT more serious hobbyists, builders & kit-bashers out there than your bean counters think there are! Discontinue Floquil & Polyscale, forcing those serious hobbyists to go to other competitors products, and I think you're going to find out the hard way just how many of us ARE out here!
You wish.
As much as we don't like to admit it, the model railroad hobby isn't just declining. It's collapsing.
I'm a newcomer in my late 50s, and a great majority of the people I've met in the hobby are older than I am. A club I visited just last week has only eight members left. It had 12, but two recently died and two others moved.
kevinrr AVRNUTThe point is that despite the "ready to run" market, there are still a LOT more serious hobbyists, builders & kit-bashers out there than your bean counters think there are! Discontinue Floquil & Polyscale, forcing those serious hobbyists to go to other competitors products, and I think you're going to find out the hard way just how many of us ARE out here! You wish. As much as we don't like to admit it, the model railroad hobby isn't just declining. It's collapsing. I'm a newcomer in my late 50s, and a great majority of the people I've met in the hobby are older than I am. A club I visited just last week has only eight members left. It had 12, but two recently died and two others moved.
HI;
I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that part about collapsing. The hobby is very much alive & well. Maybe a little different from what it once was in that the LHS is a vanishing venue for buying what you need, but the online sources for doing so are ever expanding. There is a FAR greater variety of supplies, materials, accessories, locos, rolling stock & in ever increasing quality and detail than there was just 20-30 years ago. The manufacturers would not keep putting this ever increasing variety out there if the hobby was collapsing & the demand was not there. It is.
There are clubs for just about every kind of interest, hobby & activity you can think of, but it has been my experience in my 65 years of life that these clubs really only represent a tiny fraction of the total interest that is out there. The fact is that the vast majority of active model railroaders do not belong to any clubs. Call us "lone wolves" if you want to, but for every MRR club member out there you can bet there are hundreds (if not thousands) more that are not.
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
AVRNUT kevinrr AVRNUTThe point is that despite the "ready to run" market, there are still a LOT more serious hobbyists, builders & kit-bashers out there than your bean counters think there are! Discontinue Floquil & Polyscale, forcing those serious hobbyists to go to other competitors products, and I think you're going to find out the hard way just how many of us ARE out here! You wish. As much as we don't like to admit it, the model railroad hobby isn't just declining. It's collapsing. I'm a newcomer in my late 50s, and a great majority of the people I've met in the hobby are older than I am. A club I visited just last week has only eight members left. It had 12, but two recently died and two others moved. HI; I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that part about collapsing. The hobby is very much alive & well. Maybe a little different from what it once was in that the LHS is a vanishing venue for buying what you need, but the online sources for doing so are ever expanding. There is a FAR greater variety of supplies, materials, accessories, locos, rolling stock & in ever increasing quality and detail than there was just 20-30 years ago. The manufacturers would not keep putting this ever increasing variety out there if the hobby was collapsing & the demand was not there. It is. There are clubs for just about every kind of interest, hobby & activity you can think of, but it has been my experience in my 65 years of life that these clubs really only represent a tiny fraction of the total interest that is out there. The fact is that the vast majority of active model railroaders do not belong to any clubs. Call us "lone wolves" if you want to, but for every MRR club member out there you can bet there are hundreds (if not thousands) more that are not. Carl
Carl, I agree, the hobby is as strong as ever, and maybe stronger in both numbers and dollars.
Too often people on these forums, or in clubs, fail to understand the VAST number of Lone Wolf modelers out there.
I know about them because I worked in the hobby business and managed a train department for years.
From what I have seen in 43 years, clubs, Internet forums, round robin groups, the NMRA, all added together only include maybe 15-20% of the people who have serious interest and investment in model trains, and or who have a quality working layout of some sort.
I know a guy down the street from me, a self employed machine shop owner, who has never been on a forum, never belonged to a club, never been to an NMRA function, who has a basement FULL of trains and beautifully built structures on his layout. He has NO interest in being "social" in the hobby. I think I'm thre only other modeler he even talks to about trains.
And yes, the hobby has changed, and many of us from the "old school" don't really like some of the changes. But that does not mean the hobby is dieing.
But back to this issue of paint - I have been saying from the beginning of this thread - who cares? Weaver makes a better product anyway - start buying Scalecoat and show Testers exactly how foolish they are.
I have not bought ANY Testors paint in decades - of any type or brand.
Sheldon
NP2626 ...I want discounted prices, don't want to pay manufacturer's suggested retail.
...I want discounted prices, don't want to pay manufacturer's suggested retail.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
I think they are making a profit, just not an obscene profit, which is what is required these days.
Now, where can I find a replacement for Rust-o-leum outdoor spray paints?
Colorado_Mac I think they are making a profit, just not an obscene profit, which is what is required these days.
Experation Dates???
I do not mean to be insensetive....But, as a child of 1970,...... & having mommy violently pulling this 4 year old boy, out of a cloud of vapor from the coolest Helicopoter (a 4 year old ever saw)... as it sprayed (?) on a bean field..... Long ago...
So, is it my Cancer, or remaining stock of Solvent based FloQuil.....???My Apologies Forward; for putting it in 'my' perspective, & also, so literally.
When it is all tested, & done, the crop sprays will be the 'considerations'..
BUT TO THIS THREAD!Who here is a 10 - 50 yr Dr. who has specalized in this, to give an honest opinion?Food for thought..
Good Morning All:
I just checked over on Testors' Facebook main page. Boy, are they ever getting blasted on this decision! Dozens & dozens of posts from people in all aspects of both the MRR and R/C hobbies, all VERY upset over this decision. The posts fill both columns of their main page & just keep going & going. (yes, some of them are mine). While they may not do any good, they certainly can't hurt and all of this will not do Testors' image any good, what with all these posts being up there for the whole world to see.
You never know............maybe, just MAYBE, if this continues in enough volume, Testors might just begin to realize that maybe they should re-think this decision. At the very least, it might get them to consider some form of compromise that will satisfy the needs of all concerned.
NittanyLion Colorado_Mac I think they are making a profit, just not an obscene profit.... You don't know that....
Colorado_Mac I think they are making a profit, just not an obscene profit....
I think they are making a profit, just not an obscene profit....
AVRNUT I just checked over on Testors' Facebook main page. Boy, are they ever getting blasted... all of this will not do Testors' image any good, what with all these posts being up there for the whole world to see...
I just checked over on Testors' Facebook main page. Boy, are they ever getting blasted... all of this will not do Testors' image any good, what with all these posts being up there for the whole world to see...
That's a good point, Carl, but maybe people who want to complain might be better off on the Rus-toleum page. They have around 7,000 more "likes" and I imagine many more people browse through there.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But back to this issue of paint - I have been saying from the beginning of this thread - who cares? Weaver makes a better product anyway - start buying Scalecoat and show Testers exactly how foolish they are. I have not bought ANY Testors paint in decades - of any type or brand. Sheldon
As a user of Pollyscale paints exclusively, I am clueless as to which way to turn.
Sheldon, you mentioned Scalecoat, so I looked it up and they seem to carry a lot of paints with similar names to Pollyscale paints. Thanks for that lead. I assume you are happy with that brand?
Rich
Alton Junction
Well, I just cleaned out my LHS of all the colors I use frequently. I also ordered a bunch off Amazon.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Colorado_Mac AVRNUT I just checked over on Testors' Facebook main page. Boy, are they ever getting blasted... all of this will not do Testors' image any good, what with all these posts being up there for the whole world to see... That's a good point, Carl, but maybe people who want to complain might be better off on the Rus-toleum page. They have around 7,000 more "likes" and I imagine many more people browse through there.
Good point, Mac. Maybe we should be hitting both pages. Either way, no large corporation likes to have a dent put in their armor in any open, public place (like a Facebook page). Can sometimes tend to make their stock start sliding a bit.............and shareholders don't like that! And when shareholders don't like something they tend to make their voices heard about it. And displeasure among the shareholders can tend to make corporate management re-think decisions. We can but hope............
NittanyLionI think you might be underestimating the size of this company. Hobby paint barely registers. Well over 60%of their business is industrial sealants. Most of their shareholders and potential shareholders probably don't even know they make this stuff.
I don't underestimate the size of this company at all. And yes, I agree that most shareholders probably don't even know that they make hobby paints. But voicing your concerns in a public forum like Their Facebook pages, over what we feel to be an unwise decision, could possibly result in a dip in stock. At the very least it is going to make some people take notice. And that WILL get the shareholders to ask "Why?" It just takes enough people voicing those concerns to make that happen.
You can take one person, put them in the middle of an empty sports stadium, tell them to shout "Hooray", and even if you're standing in the main gate, you'll likely not hear them. But, put 40,000 people in that stadium, tell them to shout "Hooray", and they'll be heard for miles.
Well, even if Testors was making a profit on Floquil and Pollyscale, it was probably such a slim margin that they decided to end the lines, and put more focus on their other lines, even if they were selling a large amount of paint. The more colors you have, the more formulas you need, the more inventory you need, and so on and so forth.....all of this would amount to a large production cost.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
After all the fuss and feathers have settled, the same basic truth will still hit us in the face. We don't represent a large enough customer base to make a ripple in their bottom line. On the other hand, as I look at the kits I build now, most have all the detail parts painted, and I would EXPECT the manufacturing community to continue having painted parts in the box the kit comes in. Many of us weather details with powders and such now, and I am sure we will continue to find the ways and means to weather (and paint) our models. So for now, I have enough paints stockpiled for my basic Santa Fe colors, plus a few others and I will continue to assemble new cars without concern.
So hold the fort, *** the torpedos and keep those trains running.
Bob
I look at it this way. If model railroaders were not a large enough customer base to make a ripple in their bottom line, then why were they even making the product in the first place?
Yes, we ARE a large enough customer base to make a ripple in their bottom line, but not if we just say, "Oh, well. Nothing we can do about it anyway."
It might not make a difference in their decision, but at least letting them know how you feel about it certainly can't hurt.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL But back to this issue of paint - I have been saying from the beginning of this thread - who cares? Weaver makes a better product anyway - start buying Scalecoat and show Testers exactly how foolish they are. I have not bought ANY Testors paint in decades - of any type or brand. Sheldon As a user of Pollyscale paints exclusively, I am clueless as to which way to turn. Sheldon, you mentioned Scalecoat, so I looked it up and they seem to carry a lot of paints with similar names to Pollyscale paints. Thanks for that lead. I assume you are happy with that brand? Rich
Rich, I am very happy with Scalecoat. But understand, both Scalecoat and Scalecoat II are solvent based paints, not acrylic paints like Pollyscale.
Personally I don't like acrylics and will never use them again in an air brush as long as I can get good solvent paints like Scalecoat.
Waever, the maker of Scalecoat, is a model railroad company first and foremost, in O scale. They developed the line specifically for painting trains and continue to make and sell it themselves. It is not just a "sideline" of some big conglomerate.
Except for weathering colors, and a few specials, Scalecoat is all gloss, which means you then apply clear flat to complete the model. They have both gloss and flat clear that can be mixed for any final sheen you desire. I actually use a satin finish on locos and passenger cars.
Because it is gloss, it is ready to decal with no other prep needed and gives great results.
It is all I use for locos and rolling stock - for over 20 years now.
AVRNUT I look at it this way. If model railroaders were not a large enough customer base to make a ripple in their bottom line, then why were they even making the product in the first place? Carl
If you were to have done the background work, you would have known RPM didn't make Floquil paint in the FIRST place. Through a series of acquisitions, they bought it. Testors bought the original Floquil, and later, RPM bought Testors. Floquil just came with the package. RPM is just sorting through the package and getting rid of the bits and pieces they don't consider to be profitable enough to maintain.
Think about it .... a whole paint production line to manufacture paint for JUST model railroaders ? Pretty small market in comparison to all the other products they own (have you looked at THAT list ?) If I were in their position, I'd probably do the same thing. We dealing with a mega-company now, not the original "made for hobbyists by hobbyists" kind of company it once was.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I was on the TrueLine site ordering some of their paints when I noticed that RPM, the owners of Testor's was the manufactrer of the TrueLine Paint line.
Hopefully, there will be others wiling to serve the Model Railroad market. The Pollyscale and Floquil names are well known, hopefully Testor's will be willing to sell their brand names?
don7 I was on the TrueLine site ordering some of their paints when I noticed that RPM, the owners of Testor's was the manufactrer of the TrueLine Paint line. Hopefully, there will be others wiling to serve the Model Railroad market. The Pollyscale and Floquil names are well known, hopefully Testor's will be willing to sell their brand names?
Are you confusing True-Line paint and Tru-Color paint ? True-Line paint is water based, and for my two cents isn't worth the container it's put in.
On the other hand, Tru-Color paint is acetone based and is absolutely beautiful paint to work with once you get the mixing ratios down.
Mark R. AVRNUT I look at it this way. If model railroaders were not a large enough customer base to make a ripple in their bottom line, then why were they even making the product in the first place? Carl If you were to have done the background work, you would have known RPM didn't make Floquil paint in the FIRST place. Through a series of acquisitions, they bought it. Testors bought the original Floquil, and later, RPM bought Testors. Floquil just came with the package. RPM is just sorting through the package and getting rid of the bits and pieces they don't consider to be profitable enough to maintain. Think about it .... a whole paint production line to manufacture paint for JUST model railroaders ? Pretty small market in comparison to all the other products they own (have you looked at THAT list ?) If I were in their position, I'd probably do the same thing. We dealing with a mega-company now, not the original "made for hobbyists by hobbyists" kind of company it once was. Mark.
Mark, you're not getting my point. I'm well aware that Testors acquired Floquil/Polyscale & that RPM later acquired Testors. I was not talking about the original Floquil/Polyscale when I said that if they thought there was not enough customer base they wouldn't be making it in the first place. I was referring to the fact that they kept on making it after the Testors/RPM acquisition. If they hadn't thought there was enough customer base, why continue the product................in the first place?
Because they've hit whatever threshold they determined was their loss point. Any manner of things could have or can occur between the acquisition point and the decision to end production.
It can, and probably is, a really, really complicated event.
Here's a completely hypothetical situation: their dataset indicates a rather stable market for the next 10 years, followed by a steady decline for the next five years after that. At the same time, some mission critical piece of equipment is projected to fail or otherwise be replaced in three years. The cost of the production interruption combined with the projected market decline means that the cost of the equipment replacement cannot be made in the projected window where it remains profitable to make the product. It makes more sense to stop, now when its not operating at a loss or below whatever they determined is an acceptable profit margin. Basically, you know you're never going to recoup the investment you made. So rather than make it and soldier on for three years towards the inevitable, you cut it now and never make that investment.
Or in other terms...its like taking a QB in the draft and then dropping him two years later when you realized he's a headcase or he never learned how to read an NFL defense or whatever other reason a QB can be terrible. I cite for you Vince Young and Tim Tebow.
Mark R. don7 I was on the TrueLine site ordering some of their paints when I noticed that RPM, the owners of Testor's was the manufactrer of the TrueLine Paint line. Hopefully, there will be others wiling to serve the Model Railroad market. The Pollyscale and Floquil names are well known, hopefully Testor's will be willing to sell their brand names? Are you confusing True-Line paint and Tru-Color paint ? True-Line paint is water based, and for my two cents isn't worth the container it's put in. On the other hand, Tru-Color paint is acetone based and is absolutely beautiful paint to work with once you get the mixing ratios down. Mark.
It was the True Line web site, their line of paint has a number of Canadian colours. To each their own preference, I will go with the water based and skip the oil base altogether. The sooner enamel/oil based paints are phased out the better.
I see that Krylon, another one of the leading spray paint brands has just brought to market their water based line of spray paints.
I know what you're saying Carl, but we on this forum, or any of the other forums, do not know the reason behind this decision. There aren't as many factories making paint as there are brands selling paint. It's like how many companies sell model freight cars vs how many manufactures actually make them.
Maybe the company that MAKES the paint has something to do with it. Maybe their new contract offer to RPM was higher than acceptable to maintain a profit. Could be an environmental issue. It's getting very expensive to stay compliant to all the EPA regulations. Maybe it has to do with the huge export loss due to more stringent shipping regulation to countries outside of the US. Even the customer reps don't have these answers.
It could be any number of reasons far beyond the realm of what we are thinking. We are but ONE hobby segment. Testors paint is used in every hobby imaginable, from trains to cars to R/C to arts and crafts. What do you think would be more profitable for the company going forward ? - a line of paints that would appease ANY hobbyist across the board or a line that focusses on ONE specific hobby ? I'd be willing to bet they sell a whole lot more generic No.3 Red as opposed to SP Daylight Red !
If your investment manager came to you and said we can either invest all your savings in either a broad spectrum paint line or strictly model railroad colors, which way would you go ? MY money wouldn't be on train paint !
All the whining and complaining in the world ain't going to change their decision - the bean counters have spoken, and from what I understand, the pink slips have been handed out. The customer rep. I've dealt with the last few years is gone as of July 17 - and she doesn't even know why what happened, happened.
At this point there are really only two outcomes that can be realistically be requested....
1) Fold the acrylic color chart into another paint line. In total. Or, publish an equivalency chart. If you are still selling an acrylic boxcar red and now calling it 'Panzer Springtime', well, OK, but lets get that out there.
2) Just sell the product line and forumulations to another entity. Dodge the negative press, get what you can for the intellectual property, and walk away. It happens all the time. Company A makes a dumb decision to walk away from a product, doesn't fit. Company A puts the line up for sale, gets cash for the shareholders, company B buys it and reinvigorates the line, usually privately held, smaller, responsive.
The best all time example is General Mills owning Lionel. That's my point. Sell the product line. That's RPM's decision, not Testors. That's the solution, puts new here, just incredibly stupid even from a shareholder standpoint that they simply didn't sell the product lines.
RPM is publicly held. The accountability is there. The shareholders have a right to question the management mindset that abandons a valued product line for no cash, no alternatives, alienates the customers and starts a groundswell of protest against the entire corporation that's not easily 'eraseable'. PR types get paid big bucks to prevent this exact kind of thing. Because of the high degree of professionals in model railroading, the coincidence between shareholders and modelers is not impossible. Management has to consider the fact that maybe, just maybe, a 50-share shareholder stands up in an annual meeting with this exact question. Stranger things have happened.
The entire shortline railroad industry is founded on this principle of reinvigorating marginal assets. Big, publicly-held can't do it for a number of reasons. But the regulatory environment REQUIRED that the big railroad offer the line for sale before it is allowed to tear it up. Decades later the industry has come roaring back, and some of the branches that looked like garbage are now gold. That's the way the system works. We don't have a regulatory environment for model railroad products, of course, but the internet searches have a different way of extracting a toll. RPM shareholders may wonder how this particular unnecessary uproar erupted and what was management doing that allowed it to happen?