I am on a fixed income and it is important to stretch my hobby dollars as far as they will go. Due to conditions beyond my control, since 1996, my buying power has been drastically reduced. Simply put, with inflation, the modern modelers demands for more detail and a lack of interest in building models from kits, have placed locomotive costs beyond my ability to pay! This is only my situation. I understand the market and that locomotives are selling at the prices asked. Obviously most visitors here on the MRForums have more "Fun Money" to spend on the hobby than I do. Good for them!
So, we're talking about the technology of the hobby today and if people feel they are being left behind. My point has been that it is not just the technology that is leaving some of us behind, it is also the cost.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Carey,I'm not to sure where I fit in because my Bachmann S4 is DCC/Sound and I operate this unit in the DCC mode.I been running my Bachmann 70 Tonner in the DCC mode as well but,as I stated 90% of the time my T6 is in the DC mode.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NP2626 I am on a fixed income and it is important to stretch my hobby dollars as far as they will go. Due to conditions beyond my control, since 1996, my buying power has been drastically reduced. Simply put, with inflation, the modern modelers demands for more detail and a lack of interest in building models from kits, have placed locomotive costs beyond my ability to pay! This is only my situation. I understand the market and that locomotives are selling at the prices asked. Obviously most visitors here on the MRForums have more "Fun Money" to spend on the hobby than I do. Good for them! So, we're talking about the technology of the hobby today and if people feel they are being left behind. My point has been that it is not just the technology that is leaving some of us behind, it is also the cost.
NP2626,
Just,,My feeling on this,,,It probably would have been easier to understand,Your other response's,,if you would have posted this in the very beginning...But eliminate,''Fun Money'', I in My opinion,,view that as,an open door to a argument...
Just My 3cents
Cheers,
Frank
zstripeBut eliminate,''Fun Money'', I in My opinion,,view that as,an open door to a argument...
Frank,I use several terms for money..Molded money is one and greenback is another..
Why on earth would anybody what to argue over a simple nickname for money?
What's next arguing over the use of unit instead of locomotive or diesel?
I think we need to chill over terms that means nothing.
I agree with NP, though I will admit that maybe I don't know as much about DCC as I should the cost would probably be overwhelming. I also agree with another point earlier about people being happy with what system they choose, the names listed got respect and don't get bugged about it. In my layout build thread though it was a literal page why DCC is what I should choose though I said no 2-3 times if I recall correctly but it persisted.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Well, I wasn't going to chime in and admit this, but, yes I do run on DC. To a further admission that I'm "in the stone age" I have two cabs on my railroad, and they're run using MRC Tech II power packs and old Model 55 tethered throttles! this is a no-frills operation and I intend to keep it that way - - for now, until I can get into a house where I can build a bigger layout. Right now, I'm having a great time working on the TEC, interchanging and switching cars to service the industries that I have either kitbashed or scratch built. That's what I enjoy doing, building things. I'm not so hung up on the tech part of it. I've got better things to do right now than trying to figure out a new operating system for my railroad.
The simple point is it"s your layout, do what you want. My sons and I jumped on the DCC bandwagon in the early 2000's simply because there were usually three or more of us running trains at once, and we wanted to have the freedom of independent control. I remember watching Allen Keller's early videos where just about every layout featured was operating Dynatrol. That made a lasting impression on me and my boys, and if DCC hadn't come along, we would be running on something similar to that. I guess that thing is, if you are running your layout on your own, DC is fine, but if two or more are operating trains, DCC is more convenient. The question of cost in reference to locomotives really is relative. In 1985, you could buy a blue box Athearn loco for $25.00, but remember, the price of gas that year was $1.25, and the minimum wage was $3.35. The minimum wage didn't quite keep up with inflation, it jumped a little over two times as compared to gas prices that are now three times the cost in 1985. So, if you triple the cost of that Athearn loco by todays standards, $75.00 is about what you would pay for a new Bachmann loco without sound. A $200.00 locomotive with sound and DCC is really the higher end of collecting, and not a good representation of the cost of modeling as a whole. When I get families who are definitely on a budget at the Rail Museum, and they want to know how much it might cost for them to build a simple layout for their kid(S), I try to steer them towards something like a Bachmann set, and then show them the higher levels of the hobby including the DCC and sound models. Nearly all of my friends who still have model RR's still operate on DC with no intentions on changing. It's still a cheap hobby. Compare it to another form of entertainment, Video gaming. A new XBOX 360 runs about $200.00, and that's the cheap part. A new game runs in the $60.00 range, and is obsolete within a couple of months unless you buy the upgrades. within about two years, even with all of the upgrades, it becomes obsolete when the next version of the game is released. By then the game price has increased another $10.00, and your old XBOX360 doesn't have enough memory to power it anyway. Also, if you want to interact on XBOX live, that's another yearly fee. Not to mention the cost of accessories! After spending that kind of money on my kids, I don't feel too guilty about buying a BLI locomotive!
-Stan
NP2626Or, how about the fact that few locomotives now, are available for less than $200.00, when just a few short years ago I could buy a simple to assemble kit locomotive for $35.00
"A few short years ago?" Locomotive kits have not been that cheap for decades. The December 1980 MR ad from Standard Hobby Supply offers the Bowser Pacifc for $48.90
And even with the detail kit ($15.96 in 1980), it was nowhere near the quality of todays' models.
With inflation, that 1980 total of $64.86 would be $183.22 street price today for an inferior model compared to $219 for a top end BLI Sound/DCC model available today at modeltrainstuff
That same site offers hundreds of locos for less than $100, including many less than $48.90 (some with DCC already installed)
Medina1128I figured that if I installed sound decoders in all of my locomotives, it would run me over $1800 just for the decoders. Add the cost of the power unit and booster, and yikes! I'm still able to m.u. locomotives by using the same model locomotive by the same manufacturer.
False comparison. You are contrasting silent DC costs (without individual control) with sound eguipped DCC engines.
If you like DC, that is great for you. But this is not an accurate comparison.
bing&kathyI looked at DCC and really liked th individual train control, but not the sound. It seems to me a that having several engines running in one room would have me on a dead track babbling to my self in no time. I know you can turn the sound down (off?) but if I don't want it why install it?
Why do you think you have to? Many of us run DCC with no sound. We did not install sound, we did not pay for sound.
You are misinformed if you think DCC always means sound.
But if you are happy with DC, that is great for you. It might be better though not to criticize other approaches without a full understanding.
ALCO_FAN is right on the mark about DCC and sound. The reason more companies are going with sound and DCC is demand .More of us like it, and want it. I will say that sometimes the sound isn't what I want, an example is Bachmann's B&O EM1 model which is beautiful, and runs great, but the plug in sound module is not correct for the EM1. At least it's not included in the locomotive. When it comes to babbling, I was more likely to find myself babbling while wiring block switches each track of a 20 stall roundhouse with standard DC, than I would listening to a bunch of smooth sounding EMD 567's idling in my engine terminal!
alco_fan bing&kathyI looked at DCC and really liked th individual train control, but not the sound. It seems to me a that having several engines running in one room would have me on a dead track babbling to my self in no time. I know you can turn the sound down (off?) but if I don't want it why install it? Why do you think you have to? Many of us run DCC with no sound. We did not install sound, we did not pay for sound. You are misinformed if you think DCC always means sound. But if you are happy with DC, that is great for you. It might be better though not to criticize other approaches without a full understanding.
Refers to BLI
No more Blueline or Stealth
Only making Paragon2: DCC, Sound and Smoke if it's steam, will work on DC if you want to pay for all of the other stuff that you won't use. Give us some price point options so some of us can stay in the hobby. I had a hard time with Diesels (HO) going over $100 but virtually every mfr added more details and better quality paint jobs so I followed with my wallet. Now it seems the detail and quality has leveled off but the prices have kept climbing justified by DCC and sound that myself, the OP and others aren't ready to invest in for our whole system (i.e. all previously bought DC engines).
Last I checked Athearn, Intermountain, Fox Valley, Rapido and others are still offering both versions and trying to appeal to the whole hobby. Thank you
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
ho modern modeler alco_fan bing&kathyI looked at DCC and really liked th individual train control, but not the sound. It seems to me a that having several engines running in one room would have me on a dead track babbling to my self in no time. I know you can turn the sound down (off?) but if I don't want it why install it? Why do you think you have to? Many of us run DCC with no sound. We did not install sound, we did not pay for sound. You are misinformed if you think DCC always means sound. But if you are happy with DC, that is great for you. It might be better though not to criticize other approaches without a full understanding. Refers to BLI No more Blueline or Stealth Only making Paragon2: DCC, Sound and Smoke if it's steam, will work on DC if you want to pay for all of the other stuff that you won't use. Give us some price point options so some of us can stay in the hobby. I had a hard time with Diesels (HO) going over $100 but virtually every mfr added more details and better quality paint jobs so I followed with my wallet. Now it seems the detail and quality has leveled off but the prices have kept climbing justified by DCC and sound that myself, the OP and others aren't ready to invest in for our whole system (i.e. all previously bought DC engines). Last I checked Athearn, Intermountain, Fox Valley, Rapido and others are still offering both versions and trying to appeal to the whole hobby. Thank you
I hestiate to jump back in here on a thread that has probably run its course, but what bing said is 100% correct, if you are talking about any brand new locomotive built today.
All locomotives produced in, what, the past year at least, are either dcc ready (dc) OR dcc/sound. If you want dcc, you get the sound. No decoder only locos are produced anymore, to my knowledge.
Any loco, by virtue of the dual mode decoder, has the ability to run on dc. However, since only a decoder equipped loco can run on a dcc system, you are forced to buy sound just to run your locomotive around a loop if you have a dcc system instead of dc. Perhaps this is what bing observes.
What he left out was the ability to buy a dcc ready locomotive, then install a nonsound decoder into the plug or hardwire it.
That would be a less expensive route than going full sound, and may give him the individual control he says he likes. He may not be aware of that desirable choice.
But as far as just getting started, and buying a locomotive that is ready to run right out of the box, he is right when he says that he needs to buy sound if he wants the individual locomotive motor control for dcc.
That's the way I read his post.
BTW bing: function key f8 is the mute button.
- Douglas
DoughlessAll locomotives produced in, what, the past year at least, are either dcc ready (dc) OR dcc/sound. If you want dcc, you get the sound. No decoder only locos are produced anymore, to my knowledge.
Incorrect. There are dozens of models produced with DCC motor control only and no sound.
DoughlessBut as far as just getting started, and buying a locomotive that is ready to run right out of the box, he is right when he says that he needs to buy sound if he wants the individual locomotive motor control for dcc.
Incorrect, as noted above. And since many DCC-ready locos have a standard socket, installing a motor only decoder is simplicity itself.
DC is fine if that is what you want. But DCC motor only control is easy and often comes with the model for free.
bing&kathy I looked at DCC and really liked th individual train control, but not the sound. It seems to me a that having several engines running in one room would have me on a dead track babbling to my self in no time. I know you can turn the sound down (off?) but if I don't want it why install it? The prices are onother thing. I'll buy some locos and cars at swap meets get everything up to snuff and enjoy it. Like you, scenery is some of my favorite jobs, list behind detailing scenery. But I can't do #2 before #1 so.... I fell if someone doesn't like or looks down on DC, then don't come around. If you want to try out my stuff or just sit around and kibitz, Welcome! I'm in this hobby for fun and what I think is fun.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
A few random comments in response to the last several pages of posts.
To all of you discussing the cost of the hobby, fact is adjusted for inflation, and compared to average wages for a number of common occupations, the hobby does not cost measurably more or less now than it did 20 years ago or 40 years ago when I started. My view on this can be backed up with facts, but your eyes will roll back in your head from boredom.
This has never been an "inexpensive" hobby if you go all out for the big layout, high detail, fancy control (DC or DCC) and for some of us our incomes change relative to the economy at different stages of our lives. I could not afford this hobby the way I can now back in the 80's when I was raising kids. Some of you may not be able to afford it as well in retirement as you did when you were working. We all make different choices - mine meant doing without when I was younger to build a business and live well now. Others chose different paths. Personally I know people who had great paying union jobs when I was poor and struggling - now they live on marginal pensions while I live well in a paid for house.
And if government policies and other factors have eroded your purchasing power, that too is not the fault of the hobby industry, nor is it appropriate fodder for this forum.
BUT none of that has anything to do with the cost of the hobby. Fact is without sound, and with or without DCC motor control $100 or $150 for a loco - steam or diesel, is not a high price. But I don't want to pay and extra $75 or $100 for a sound decoder that I will rip out and sell cheap on Ebay - see my comments later about BLI.
There are locos, steam and diesel, out in the market place with DCC and sound, DCC only, and DCC ready - DC powered. Like everything in our hobby the supply chain of products is constantly in flux. There is no rigid list of what is, or is not available.
However, most of the big players seem to be very clear that they are interested in ALL three markets - DCC & SOUND, DCC, and DC.
Broadway Limited appears to finally given up completely on DC and/or non sound customers - what a bad move in my view. I will not be buying much if any of their products unless they are "closeout" priced.
Next topic - Several people keep commenting about how DCC, or DCC & sound locos do run on DC. Well that depends on your definition of "run". And it depends a lot on what kind of DC throttles you are using. The truth is most dual mode decoders run VERY POORLY on the better DC throttles, and they don't run at all on some of the best DC throttles. Don't believe me? bring your DCC loco to my house and lets run it on my Aristo Train Engineer wireless radio throttles - then I will run a similar loco from my fleet of 135 that does not have any little black box brain and you will be amazed. Amazed at the poor control of the dual mode decoder loco and great control of the loco with no decoder.
I will repeat, for me it is all about fitting the control system to the goals of the layout and its owner. DCC would cost me and extra $5000, make more work for me, and not give me one feature I really need or want.
But I know I am in the minority because my primary interests in running trains are at the two extreme ends of how most people see operation. On the one end, I want my prototype operation complete with CTC and signals. On the other end I like simple display running ability - example I would never build a point to point layout as my primary layout - trains need to be able to be turned on and ran for non railroad visitors - or just because I want to "rail-fan" in miniature. Neither of these goals is advanced much, if at all, by DCC.
I think if you like sound, DCC is your best route at present, and likely will be for awhile yet. BUT the technology behind DCC is old, and the user interfaces are marginal at best, so new products like Rail Pro and the Aristo Revolution, and others will have a shot. And DC will likely remain, in various forms for quite a while, and maybe even "forever".
To all of you who simply "don't understand why" people like me don't want DCC, there is not one reason. For some it is cost, for some it is extra tasks we would rather avoid - decoder installs, setting CV's, speed matching, don't want sound, etc. For others it is about staying with what they know, or for some it is the challenge of building something else themselves rather than just "buying" something.
This hobby is a lot of different things to different people, and those of you who insist on the "try DCC, you will love it" speeches - guess what, I've tried it, in fact I use it all time on many of my friends layouts. But even with my strong background in electronics, control design, engineering and more - I'm not buying. Actually, maybe my knowledge and background is WHY I'm not buying DCC?
To all of you I would politely suggest, keep an open mind about how others view the hobby - truth is they likely don't see it the way you do - so they make different choices.
Sheldon
alco_fan DoughlessAll locomotives produced in, what, the past year at least, are either dcc ready (dc) OR dcc/sound. If you want dcc, you get the sound. No decoder only locos are produced anymore, to my knowledge. Incorrect. There are dozens of models produced with DCC motor control only and no sound. DoughlessBut as far as just getting started, and buying a locomotive that is ready to run right out of the box, he is right when he says that he needs to buy sound if he wants the individual locomotive motor control for dcc. Incorrect, as noted above. And since many DCC-ready locos have a standard socket, installing a motor only decoder is simplicity itself. DC is fine if that is what you want. But DCC motor only control is easy and often comes with the model for free.
Big deal....nobody is trying to win a debate.
I said "to my knowledge", which qualifies the statement as one subject to conditions, and makes it a general statement that makes a point rather than an absolute statement that quotes statistical data.
Also, I noted the ability to buy an aftermarket decoder and plug it into the socket and advised bing of that cost effective option. I wrote about it an inch up the post you quoted.
Generalized comments are not absolutes. They are used to make a point. Whether the percentage is 100%, 90%, or whatever percentage exists after you deduct "dozens" from the universe is irrelevant to the point bing and I were making.
Point being: he cannot find a locomotive that runs on DCC that he doesn't also have to buy sound to get it to run on a dcc system. Maybe its not a 100%, but its high enough percentage that creates an issue worth discussing.
.
A different view.
One doesn't need sound for DCC operation nor does one need to invest in a high end DCC system for a small to med size layout.The decoders can run between $19.99-49.95..
For around $89.00 one can buy a Bachmann E-Z DCC system.This system works quite well for simple DCC..
My Tech 6 and hand held throttle cost me around $125.00 total at street..By using my hand held throttle I can operate 6 engines and access all CVs,rule 17 lighting and make sound adjustments
Want to run your DC engine? Remove or isolate your DCC engines and switch the mode to standard.
DCC may not be as expensive as many think if they buy the DCC system that best fill their needs..
How can I say this?
I'm not trying to "sell"(?) DCC but,just saying there are cheaper ways to enjoy DCC without spending mega bucks if one wants DCC.
jeffrey-wimberly bing&kathy I looked at DCC and really liked th individual train control, but not the sound. It seems to me a that having several engines running in one room would have me on a dead track babbling to my self in no time. I know you can turn the sound down (off?) but if I don't want it why install it? The prices are onother thing. I'll buy some locos and cars at swap meets get everything up to snuff and enjoy it. Like you, scenery is some of my favorite jobs, list behind detailing scenery. But I can't do #2 before #1 so.... I fell if someone doesn't like or looks down on DC, then don't come around. If you want to try out my stuff or just sit around and kibitz, Welcome! I'm in this hobby for fun and what I think is fun. Having DCC control doesn't mean you have to have DCC sound as well. My layout is DCC but none of my locos have sound. They have motor and light control only. Converting a DC loco to DCC costs me $20 - $30 per loco.
Jeffrey,
I should let bing speak for himself....but I think he is looking at the overwhelming majority of brand new locomotives, not what he can find new-old-stock or what he can convert.
The vast majority of locomotives found in store fronts today, in either LHS' or online dealers, are only dcc ready or dcc/sound.
DoughlessGeneralized comments are not absolutes. They are used to make a point.
And if incorrect, generalized comments can be used to make an invalid point.
DoughlessPoint being: he cannot find a locomotive that runs on DCC that he doesn't also have to buy sound to get it to run on a dcc system.
That is not what Bing said. I agree that is what you interpreted.
DC is fine for those who want it. DCC motor only control is easy to achieve and many engines may be purchased that way off the shelf.
BRAKIE A different view. One doesn't need sound for DCC operation nor does one need to invest in a high end DCC system for a small to med size layout.The decoders can run between $19.99-49.95.. For around $89.00 one can buy a Bachmann E-Z DCC system.This system works quite well for simple DCC.. My Tech 6 and hand held throttle cost me around $125.00 total at street..By using my hand held throttle I can operate 6 engines and access all CVs,rule 17 lighting and make sound adjustments Want to run your DC engine? Remove or isolate your DCC engines and switch the mode to standard. DCC may not be as expensive as many think if they buy the DCC system that best fill their needs.. How can I say this? I'm not trying to "sell"(?) DCC but,just saying there are cheaper ways to enjoy DCC without spending mega bucks if one wants DCC.
Larry, I agree completely - but it gets back to your other goals in the hobby. Not everyone wants to build an ISL, not everyone wants to build a basement empire with CTC.
alco_fan DoughlessGeneralized comments are not absolutes. They are used to make a point. And if incorrect, generalized comments can be used to make an invalid point. DoughlessPoint being: he cannot find a locomotive that runs on DCC that he doesn't also have to buy sound to get it to run on a dcc system. That is not what Bing said. I agree that is what you interpreted. DC is fine for those who want it. DCC motor only control is easy to achieve and many engines may be purchased that way off the shelf.
The point is that bing has linked sound with dcc. That is because nearly 100% of new locomotives he sees link sound with dcc. (Peruse any LHS or online dealer, like a newby would, and that's what you see.)
He understands seeing used locomotives at a swap meet. Nearly 100% of those are dc. (People tend to not sell their sound or decoder only locomotives.)
Hence his comment about avoiding dcc because he doesn't want sound, and his solution that buying used locos at a swap meet will steer him towards dc.
Clear as a bell to me. A QSI bell.
alco_fan NP2626Or, how about the fact that few locomotives now, are available for less than $200.00, when just a few short years ago I could buy a simple to assemble kit locomotive for $35.00 "A few short years ago?" Locomotive kits have not been that cheap for decades. The December 1980 MR ad from Standard Hobby Supply offers the Bowser Pacifc for $48.90 And even with the detail kit ($15.96 in 1980), it was nowhere near the quality of todays' models. With inflation, that 1980 total of $64.86 would be $183.22 street price today for an inferior model compared to $219 for a top end BLI Sound/DCC model available today at modeltrainstuff That same site offers hundreds of locos for less than $100, including many less than $48.90 (some with DCC already installed)
Actually, I bought 2 MDC/Roundhouse 4-4-2 kits last year for $35 each.
While my primary scale is S, I have been collecting some of the old MDC kits over the last couple of years just for fun. Freight car kits can be had for $5 or less - sometimes as low as $3. Passenger car kits $5 to $10. Athearn kits are similarly priced as well. Get out to some train shows while there are still some of the old kits floating around. This hobby can still be pretty cheap.
Enjoy
Paul
One thing rarely mentioned in discussions of DC vs DCC is how the prototype operates.
The prototype is divided into blocks and there are rules regarding the occupancy of the blocks. This type of operation can generally be simulated very well using DC.
It also appears there is no great advantage to DCC on one train a day short lines or branch lines or most switching layouts .
Early in DCC history some overzealous promoters implied one could build fairy complex muti-train layouts with no blocks and just two wires connected to the track. Of course it's not that simple.
Later the pitch was save at a lot of money which would otherwise be spent on block switches, control circuits, wiring and don't suffer the frustration running down electrical problems. While probably some truth to this it depends on the size and complexity of the layout and how it is operated. Another factor is how many different locos one intends to be able to run. Increasing number of locos thus the number of decoders can quickly override other cost savings.
Some have posted that they do not have any problems programming decoders and keeping their locos operating. But that is not the experience of my friend, who by the way is firmly committed to DCC, and for many others judging from the many requests for help on a number of Forums.
One "advantage" to DCC is the ability stage a cornfield meet. However, I did have a friend manage to do it once on a large DC layout. He was operating both trains while the rest of us were switching in yards and industrial areas. The trains met at a block boundary and just happened to arrive there at the same time. We never did figure out how he did it since the trains had started out from the yard going in the same direction.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
I also went through the trials of learning DCC when I had my large layout. I wanted the capabilities of DCC but due to the fact that I had a lot of engines that just were not compatible with DCC without doing major changes. Many Rivarossi engines with old open frame motors that draw more amperage than a 20 year old refrigerator and some brass engines I wouldn’t modify if I could.
So what does one do? With the miracle of the toggle switch, I with the flick of a finger can run my old DC engines or my newer DCC ones.
I even installed the same setup on my little 13’x 18” switching layout I have now so I can exercise my old Rivarossi and Brass engines that are now shelf queens.
For those who are thinking of trying DCC it’s a good way to gradually convert over if you so desire, but still be able to use your DC equipment.
Now granted many folks have very complicated DC systems and it may not work for everyone, but if you have a basic DC system it should work fine.
Just a thought.
PV Rich
Well...the whole purpose of me reentering the thread a while back was to make a small point that I never really got to make.
About the technology:
Observation : (By me and I think another) An overwhelming percentage of new dcc operable locomotives come equipped with sound. (In those size locos and scales where sound can physically fit) i.e: not just motor control.
That tells me that producers are abandoning marketing dcc as a system of motor control only. And are using it as a platform to add features to the locomotive or layout, like sound, turnout control, or soon, uncoupling. Things that are already installed on many older DC layouts (fixed uncoupling magnets, speakers at crossings) are being moved from under the layout and onto the DCC chip.
Each new dcc capable feature will be executed by pushing different buttons on the unit (hand-held or stationary); whereas DC executes the commands by pushing buttons and toggles on the fascia. Whether DCC or DC, that physical action becomes more frantic as you reduce the size of the layout and add locomotives running at the same time. Is there a big difference?
I will let each person answer that for themselves.
What is the issue for almost all of us mortals, is the amount of installation work you have to do up front.
In DCC the complicated electronics are present just as much as in DC. Its just reduced in size and is placed in the pc board of the command station and on the pc board of each locomotive at a factory. You pay for it. You don' t design and install the electronics yourself..
Typically with DC, you design and install the wiring yourself under the layout.
THAT is the real difference. Whether you pay for someone to design and install complicated wiring into each of your locomotives as you buy them, or whether you design it install it your self, once, under the benchwork.
About the never ending threads:
So perhaps compare apples to apples: If you could PAY someone to design and install your DC wiring, like you basically do with your dcc system (what's inside the comand station and the decoders), how would that change your approach to the issue? Keep in mind this is just the wiring needed to assign the throttle to a train, not the wiring needed to reverse a train or throw a switch or uncouple two cars, which you need either way. For these layouts its more than "just two wires" either way too.
And please when comparing, also compare the amount of button pushing it takes to assign the throttle to a DCC train and how much toggle flipping you have to do in DC to assign the throttle. Both are distracting and more frantic the more you reduce the size of the layout and add to the number of trains running at the same time on the same track. Compare the same layouts and operations.
These are my interpretations of what I see and hear out there. I keep my layout simple for some of the very reasons I mentioned. And I know some may think that's boring.
DoughlessThat tells me that producers are abandoning marketing dcc as a system of motor control only
Does not seem that way to me. It seems to me that the loco manufacturers are allowing buyers to choose their own decoders for motor and lighting control. (Except for Bachmann and others who still offer motor only DCC installed, or course).
A simple confirmation of this is to note how many drop in motor control only decoders are being offered by DCC suppliers ... hundreds and hundreds, many either light board replacement or a simple plug in.
DoughlessAnd please when comparing, also compare the amount of button pushing it takes to assign the throttle to a DCC train
In DCC, enter the loco number once, turn the knob, run all over the layout. With typical multiple cab DC, flip a block toggle or rotary every time I move from block to block.
DC is fine if it suits your needs. I like the freedom of DCC.
alco_fan DoughlessThat tells me that producers are abandoning marketing dcc as a system of motor control only Does not seem that way to me. It seems to me that the loco manufacturers are allowing buyers to choose their own decoders for motor and lighting control. (Except for Bachmann and others who still offer motor only DCC installed, or course). A simple confirmation of this is to note how many drop in motor control only decoders are being offered by DCC suppliers -- hundreds and hundreds, many either light board replacement or a simple plug in. DoughlessAnd please when comparing, also compare the amount of button pushing it takes to assign the throttle to a DCC train In DCC, enter the loco number once, turn the knob, run all over the layout. With typical multiple cab DC, flip a block toggle or rotary every time I move from block to block. DC is fine if that is what you like.
A simple confirmation of this is to note how many drop in motor control only decoders are being offered by DCC suppliers -- hundreds and hundreds, many either light board replacement or a simple plug in.
DC is fine if that is what you like.
Alco_fan
Since the thread is still open....The newbie who may be confused by your reply may need help.
Your example of operating the dcc and dc layout appears to involve only one train, which is not usually the premise underpinning the dcc/dc analysis.
Reassigning the throttle (the speed of a train) while other trains are moving, to avoid crashes, tends to be a major goal of multiple train operation. To do so with either system while other trains are moving requires effort and attention. Somewhat frantically if you have to do it quickly.
I like DCC, which is why I use it on my layout.
Doughless Well...the whole purpose of me reentering the thread a while back was to make a small point that I never really got to make. About the technology: Observation : (By me and I think another) An overwhelming percentage of new dcc operable locomotives come equipped with sound. (In those size locos and scales where sound can physically fit) i.e: not just motor control. That tells me that producers are abandoning marketing dcc as a system of motor control only. And are using it as a platform to add features to the locomotive or layout, like sound, turnout control, or soon, uncoupling. Things that are already installed on many older DC layouts (fixed uncoupling magnets, speakers at crossings) are being moved from under the layout and onto the DCC chip. Each new dcc capable feature will be executed by pushing different buttons on the unit (hand-held or stationary); whereas DC executes the commands by pushing buttons and toggles on the fascia. Whether DCC or DC, that physical action becomes more frantic as you reduce the size of the layout and add locomotives running at the same time. Is there a big difference? I will let each person answer that for themselves. What is the issue for almost all of us mortals, is the amount of installation work you have to do up front. In DCC the complicated electronics are present just as much as in DC. Its just reduced in size and is placed in the pc board of the command station and on the pc board of each locomotive at a factory. You pay for it. You don' t design and install the electronics yourself.. Typically with DC, you design and install the wiring yourself under the layout. THAT is the real difference. Whether you pay for someone to design and install complicated wiring into each of your locomotives as you buy them, or whether you design it install it your self, once, under the benchwork. About the never ending threads: So perhaps compare apples to apples: If you could PAY someone to design and install your DC wiring, like you basically do with your dcc system (what's inside the comand station and the decoders), how would that change your approach to the issue? Keep in mind this is just the wiring needed to assign the throttle to a train, not the wiring needed to reverse a train or throw a switch or uncouple two cars, which you need either way. For these layouts its more than "just two wires" either way too. And please when comparing, also compare the amount of button pushing it takes to assign the throttle to a DCC train and how much toggle flipping you have to do in DC to assign the throttle. Both are distracting and more frantic the more you reduce the size of the layout and add to the number of trains running at the same time on the same track. Compare the same layouts and operations. These are my interpretations of what I see and hear out there. I keep my layout simple for some of the very reasons I mentioned. And I know some may think that's boring.
Great points - I agree completely - and while some what large, many aspects of my layout are kept simple for similar reasons as well.
Doughless alco_fan DoughlessThat tells me that producers are abandoning marketing dcc as a system of motor control only Does not seem that way to me. It seems to me that the loco manufacturers are allowing buyers to choose their own decoders for motor and lighting control. (Except for Bachmann and others who still offer motor only DCC installed, or course). A simple confirmation of this is to note how many drop in motor control only decoders are being offered by DCC suppliers -- hundreds and hundreds, many either light board replacement or a simple plug in. DoughlessAnd please when comparing, also compare the amount of button pushing it takes to assign the throttle to a DCC train In DCC, enter the loco number once, turn the knob, run all over the layout. With typical multiple cab DC, flip a block toggle or rotary every time I move from block to block. DC is fine if that is what you like. Alco_fan Since the thread is still open....The newbie who may be confused by your reply may need help. Your example of operating the dcc and dc layout appears to involve only one train, which is not usually the premise underpinning the dcc/dc analysis. Reassigning the throttle (the speed of a train) while other trains are moving, to avoid crashes, tends to be a major goal of multiple train operation. To do so with either system while other trains are moving requires effort and attention. Somewhat frantically if you have to do it quickly. I like DCC, which is why I use it on my layout.
alco_fan,
I don't know what others do, but personally I only "operate" one train at a time. Multi train operation on my layout requires multiple operators, and possibly a dispatcher.
And all the modelers who's layouts I operate in our round robin group, many of which are DCC, do the same thing - one train = one operator.
When I want to "run" more than one train for display purposes, all I need to is throw a couple of turnouts and create a number of discrete isolated routes and let them run - round and round - with nothing to crash into.
In "prototype" operation mode, trains move east and west along the mainline under control of the signal system - just like real trains - an elaborate infrastructure is in place to see that two trains do not occupy the same space at the same time
I have no desire to try to juggle the actual operation of more than one train at a time by myself - and I don't undrstand why anyone would - I'm sure you will explain it to me.
They don't let real engineers run two trains at once - I know this because my son is a railroad engineer.