If you feel left behind(or think you might feel left behind) or your pals say you're being left behind, or you heard a catchy slogan saying "Don't be left behind" or you read an op ed saying you'll be left behind, and this somehow moves you to action, do this:
Try something new. Dabble. Tinker. Learn how DCC works. Then master it.
Be curious, like when you were a kid. My kids remind me of how awesome the world can be with a sense of wonder and curiosity. Apply that to your model railroad control system of choice.
If you do try it, and even if you end up not enjoying DCC, at least you'll be better informed.
did I say something about wiring multi cab DC? I don't remember making a comment about it, I remember saying that DC and DCC perform the same/ or similar task.
Yeah I'll admit I'm having a bugger of a time trying to figure out atlas' book, I Kalmbachs it's not any easier to understand. one thing that has me confused is that there is a wire going from one power pack to another.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
<sigh> Another lively Saturday afternoon DC/DCC discussion.
It warms the heart...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Call me caveman but I sometimes use primitive stuff on my layout. When I had a foam layout surface pop up, I glued it back down, and weighted it with a 12,000 year old fossilized mammoth thighbone.
alco_fan Burlington Northern #24I don't understand why it's getting pushed so hard that those of us who don't wish to partake in DCC must be forced into being assimilated into DCC. I am not saying that, you did not read my posts. If you want to stay DC, do that by all means. I have said that multiple times. Read my posts. But until you personally wire a layout with _multiple cab_ DC with _independent control_ of the trains _anywhere_ on the layout, you do not know what is involved, trust me. So you do not have the experience to make the assertion that DC and DCC are "the same".
Burlington Northern #24I don't understand why it's getting pushed so hard that those of us who don't wish to partake in DCC must be forced into being assimilated into DCC.
I am not saying that, you did not read my posts. If you want to stay DC, do that by all means. I have said that multiple times. Read my posts.
But until you personally wire a layout with _multiple cab_ DC with _independent control_ of the trains _anywhere_ on the layout, you do not know what is involved, trust me. So you do not have the experience to make the assertion that DC and DCC are "the same".
With all due respect, alco_fan, for many of us DC users who wish to run only one train at a time, DC and DCC might as well be the same, and that is one reason why DCC holds so little attraction for us. For those who want multiple cab DC, there is plenty of info available for doing so, and it's really not all that complicated. For those who think it is but want its advantages, they will likely go to DCC, and that's just fine, too.
Personally, I would never want or need to run more than one train at a time - like driving a car, the operator's attention, in my opinion, should be focused on the vehicle he's operating.
My layout is designed for use by a single operator, but I can easily run multiple locomotives on the same train if they're needed. My wiring is simple (two wires from the power supply to the tracks), and a simple-to-wire toggle switch operates a reversing wye. In my era, locomotive lights were off in daytime, and I didn't spend my time and interest doing detail work to waste it all by having nighttime operations. Sound? I actually like the sound of DCC-powered diesels, but have only one diesel, a doodlebug, on my layout. As for steam, I've yet to hear one which is convincing and not annoying, and after almost 40 years in a steel mill, the sound of silence is music to my ears.
I see no reason to switch to DCC, but just as you're okay with me sticking with DC operation, I'm equally at ease with your continued use of DCC. Different needs, different expectations, different philosophies on model railroading and perhaps even on life, but still the same great hobby.
Wayne
OK guys just what is DC (direct current? ? ) and I really don't want to know what DCC is - - direct current -current? ? I'm sticking with AC and am very happy with it.
Southgate I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits. I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee. Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan
I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits.
I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee.
Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common?
Dan
To answer your question: "Left behind by technology. Am I alone?"
No, unless you want to operate in a club which is DCC. If you want to build a home layout there is no reason you can't do what you please and use bear skins and stone knives. Just kidding. DC or DCC is still your choice - you'll see there are plenty here who have that in their siggy - stuff like "it's my RR and I make the rules".
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Burlington Northern #24did I say something about wiring multi cab DC?
Yes, you did ... when you said DC and DCC are "the same". Controlling multiple engines independently is precisely where DC and DCC differ significantly.
Since controlling multiple trains independently _seems_ to be what you seem to want to do on your new layout, there _is_ a difference _for you_ between DC and DCC.
Burlington Northern #24one thing that has me confused is that there is a wire going from one power pack to another.
It depends what you are trying to do which I am not totally sure of. You could start a new thread in the wiring section with your track plan and probably get more help.
There are two basic approaches to multiple cab DC wiring. I've tried both. What Atlas does is called common-rail wiring which seems simpler on its face. You only switch the rails on one side of each block, the others are all connected together. In that case, yes you would connect _one_ terminal of each power pack together. That then connects to the "common rail" side of the layout. That connection is included inside the Atlas Selector or Controller if you follow their instructions.
Then you are switching the other side of the tracks for each block to the other terminal of one or the other power pack. That is what the Selector switch does when you slide the switch from "A" to "B". You have to be sure that you connect the same (plus or minus) terminal of the power pack to the other, otherwise bad things happen.
The other approach is to switch both rails of each block from one power pack to the other with a series of toggles or rotary switches.For that you would _not_ connect the two power packs together directly. Even though it takes more wire and double-pole switches I find this easier to understand than keeping track of the common rail. Just the way my brain works.
Wiring for reverse loops is another matter altogether but it does not seem that you are planning for any of those on your next layout.
From another thread common rail wiring with a Selector only
doctorwayneWith all due respect, alco_fan, for many of us DC users who wish to run only one train at a time, DC and DCC might as well be the same
But that is not what the guy who said DC and DCC are "the same" wants to do. In another thread he wants to run multiple engines independently. At least I think he does.
No, the way I was planning on doing was seperate blocks, not multiple cabs to one power pack that would take just a bit more juice than my tech II 2500 can dish out. the seperate blocks would have their own powerpacks. Main line, Pasco yard, and Vancouver facilities. but at the moment I just need to get the mainline completed so I can move forward with the rest of it. The idea I was moving for is seperate train operation/movement, I think I'm still not sure which makes two of us who are unsure of what I'm doing.
thank you for the diagram that makes a lot more sense than the atlas on does.
tstage <sigh> Another lively Saturday afternoon DC/DCC discussion. It warms the heart...
Tom,
I watched a show on cable,some time ago,about old,toys,collectibles and that was one of them,,,,worth a lot of coins,,more so if you have the original box..
Cheers,,,Thanks for the,commercial break,,,LOL..
Frank
Let me respectfully suggest that you should study on this a bit more.
Burlington Northern #24No, the way I was planning on doing was seperate blocks, not multiple cabs to one power pack that would take just a bit more juice than my tech II 2500 can dish out.
You don't need any more "juice" for multiple blocks as in the diagram above. Each separate power pack still only controls one train at a time. That is the whole idea. Your tech II would still be useful.
Burlington Northern #24the seperate blocks would have their own powerpacks. Main line, Pasco yard, and Vancouver facilities.
So trains would never move between one of those areas and the others? Seems pretty limiting to me, but if that is OK with you, OK.
Burlington Northern #24The idea I was moving for is seperate train operation/movement
Well if you just want unconnected ovals, what you are describing will work. If you want trains to run on the main line and then go into the yard and back, using blocks the normal way will be more flexible.
I will stop bothering you with unwanted suggestions. Good luck.
Burlington Northern #24thank you for the diagram that makes a lot more sense than the atlas on does.
That was done by Soo Line fan on this thread
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/212119.aspx
Hi guys. Man, what a response! I didn't mean to sound negative about DCC, or that I felt as if I was looked down on by staying with DC. I just didn't realize how many RRers were still with DC.
I'm not technophobic. You oughta see the RC 1/25 scale crane I'm building. (call it G scale) I think that part of the appeal of this hobby for me is that I can do things now the way I did in the '70s or '80s, and there's a nostalgia when I hear the old BB growl. My first step into reliable modeling was when I got an Athearn GP35 for 16 bucks in '76. Tossed the cheapo train set locos that wore out before the wheels got dirty. Lost that Geep in a fire, but replaced it with one of same vintage, die cast side frames on the trucks and all.
I certainly didn't mean to spark controversy or rehash something that now is obvious to me is worn out topic. I try to read every reply to a topic I post, but am only about 1/2 way!
Thanks for the replies, and the question has been more than answered! Dan
alco_fan Let me respectfully suggest that you should study on this a bit more. Burlington Northern #24No, the way I was planning on doing was seperate blocks, not multiple cabs to one power pack that would take just a bit more juice than my tech II 2500 can dish out. You don't need any more "juice" for multiple blocks as in the diagram above. Each separate power pack still only controls one train at a time. That is the whole idea. Your tech II would still be useful. Burlington Northern #24the seperate blocks would have their own powerpacks. Main line, Pasco yard, and Vancouver facilities. So trains would never move between one of those areas and the others? Seems pretty limiting to me, but if that is OK with you, OK. Burlington Northern #24The idea I was moving for is seperate train operation/movement Well if you just want unconnected ovals, what you are describing will work. If you want trains to run on the main line and then go into the yard and back, using blocks the normal way will be more flexible. I will stop bothering you with unwanted suggestions. Good luck. Burlington Northern #24thank you for the diagram that makes a lot more sense than the atlas on does. That was done by Soo Line fan on this thread http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/212119.aspx
Southgate ... Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan
...
Dan, if you are in the hobby, you are moving with it. You may be nearer the banks where the water flows slowest, but you'll end up somewhere downstream eventually. I think those operating in AC or DC ought to be enjoying the hobby as they define their own fun. There is no must/should in this hobby. It's always may/want. That was the real gist of my reply way back on page two to John with his objection to DCC and sound. Sound came along before DCC. DCC just made it a little more portable for the locomotive. Many operate in DCC without the burden of sound...and if they were to use that phrase, it being a burden, I would understand immediately. Sheldon has made that abundantly clear innumerable times, but he's not the only one.
You are not being left behind. You are here, sharing your feelings or misgivings with us. Unless you don't pay your power bill for a couple of months, you can still talk to us, and you can plug in and run your trains no less than fully and honestly as you intend them to supply you with enjoyment. It's always your call, and as many others have agreed, DCC isn't where it's at for them as well.
Good luck, and drop in more often.
Crandell
alco_fanWiring for reverse loops is another matter altogether but it does not seem that you are planning for any of those on your next layout.
The good news wiring a reverse is easy if you use a Atlas Controller..You can even wire the selectors in a series behind the controller.
When I used a Controller and 6 selectors I never had to run a common wire between the cabs,
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEWhen I used a Controller and 6 selectors I never had to run a common wire between the cabs,
That is because the connection is inside the Controller, as I noted earlier.
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
DC here also,but i like to buy locos that are DCC ready,just because it might happend some day.Now i do wish that MRC will make a Wireless DC system.
Russell
alco_fan BRAKIEWhen I used a Controller and 6 selectors I never had to run a common wire between the cabs, That is because the connection is inside the Controller, as I noted earlier.
Doh! Yes! Somebody had a senior moment..
Run your equipment as you see fit. DC is fine for home layouts if you don't want sound and DCC offers simple wiring and sound if you want to move up.
Most of the manufacturers still offer DC models but they are now called DCC ready. This means you can install a decoder by removing the jumper plug already installed and connecting the decoder where the jumper plug was installed. You will have the best of the two options.
CZ
alco_fanThat is a specious comparison, it is not the same at all. If those toggles _do_exist, they are never touched in normal operation, completely different than DC with multiple cabs. Yet another false point.
Not really false..Those power districts needs wiring just like a DC block toggle switch even if they are seldom used.
There's been several articles in MR and some DCC topics covering DCC power districts..
While DCC is a great advancement its not as perfect as many try to make it out to be.
One thing I will never ever do again is be a hostler on a busy DCC layout...After operation was over I felt more like a accountant then anything.
BRAKIENot really false..Those power districts needs wiring just like a DC block toggle switch even if they are seldom used.
If you do not see the operational difference between a toggle used once in a blue moon for troubleshooting (or never) as compared to one that must be changed every time a different train passes, we are living on two different planets. Most people use inexpensive automated circuit breakers these days instead of toggles for isolating power districts.
BRAKIEOne thing I will never ever do again is be a hostler on a busy DCC layout...After operation was over I felt more like a accountant then anything.
Then that was a poorly designed DCC system or ops plan, or both How hard is it to enter an engine number and turn a knob?
The challenge of flipping a dozen toggles in a busy DC engine service area for every move would be a challenge, too.
DC is fine if that is what you want and need.
leighant Call me caveman but I sometimes use primitive stuff on my layout. When I had a foam layout surface pop up, I glued it back down, and weighted it with a 12,000 year old fossilized mammoth thighbone.
I have a bucket full of 4x8 Holland Pavers that I had leftover from watching Lovie coach da Bears. Great for weighing down glued foam Pieces.
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
Well my worth.
I am firmly commented to DCC at this point, but there are times I wished I stayed DC.
Pro's of DC
1 Fixing engines was simpler, if you had power to the motor and engine did not move, you need a new motor.
2 If you have power to the rail, engine moved.
3 Not that hard to block a separate line. I ran 2 MRC 2500 throttles.
4 No speed matching needed, fast one went in front.
5 Find a good deal on a engine, no need to shell out $15.00 to $25.00 for a decoder.
Pro's of DCC.
1 I have 2 long main lines, one 70 foot and the other 90 foot. I like to run 2 trains on each main at the same time.
2 When I want to park a train, no need to go throw a switch to cut the power.
3 When I want to start a engine no need to throw s switch to turn on the power.
4 I like sound, and DCC makes it easy to control.
As far as CV's, that scared me away from DCC for sometime! Seeing the folks at the club thrashing to get there engines to move, No Thanks! Then I got my first Sound Engine by mistake, got it home and fired it up and it had sound? I was hooked.
After I bough a Digitrax PR 3, setting and storing CV's became easy. I now run my layout by my computer and I am very happy with the setup!
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I have been modeling for over 30 years and I run DC at home and at my club. They are always trying to get me to convert at the club, but it always takes those guys 40 minutes to work out all the bugs before they can run. They also are always having short circuits and running problems. I have over a 100 locomotives and I can't see converting.
Todd
alco_fan BRAKIENot really false..Those power districts needs wiring just like a DC block toggle switch even if they are seldom used. If you do not see the operational difference between a toggle used once in a blue moon for troubleshooting (or never) as compared to one that must be changed every time a different train passes, we are living on two different planets. Most people use inexpensive automated circuit breakers these days instead of toggles for isolating power districts. BRAKIEOne thing I will never ever do again is be a hostler on a busy DCC layout...After operation was over I felt more like a accountant then anything. Then that was a poorly designed DCC system or ops plan, or both How hard is it to enter an engine number and turn a knob? The challenge of flipping a dozen toggles in a busy DC engine service area for every move would be a challenge, too.
Agreed with the toggle flippin'..I've done that too.
The layout was built for prototypical operation and uses Digitrax..Normal operation is 28-30 trains in 4-5 hours.Its single track with passing sidings with CTC control.
IIRC I moved close to 74 locomotives ...Every time a engine needed to be moved from the inbound to the servicing track,servicing to storage and from storage to outbound ready I had to address and acquire the locomotive..
As I stated never ever again..
Todd McWilliambut it always takes those guys 40 minutes to work out all the bugs before they can run.
I never have problems like that with DCC. I turn it on, run trains. Most people don't experience problems like you describe with DCC, or we would have replaced it long ago. That is something that could be fixed.
Another great thing about DCC, I never have to yell "who has got my train" like I did all the time with DC at my club when someone threw the wrong rotary switch.
If you like DC, that is great for you.
To the OP--
No, you are most certainly not alone--you might even still be in the quiet, perhaps less vocal, majority? We just don't squeak as loudly as some.
I am pretty much DC only, with a single track mainline. I used power routing turnouts--so there are no "blocks", only sidings that are powered when I want them to be. Double ended sidings get power feeders in the middle--it was easy and simple.
Sometimes I run more than one train at a time, as many as 3 trains, but I tend to do it by matching similar locomotives so they don't rear-end each other--or I just plain pay attention to what I'm doing.
No fancy walkaround throttles for me...
Some of us are old school, even just only in our 40's.
I won't be posting here much anymore--only reading--but I responded to this topic, because your question warranted a response.
Respectfully submitted--
John
a licensed Civil Design Engineer who prefers his "hobby" to remain uncomplicated
DC here, I have a very long mainline and two isolated yards. I run a wireless throttle for the main. DCC is just too costly to me and people I know who have it, always have issues with it but they do like the control.