A handful of thoughts from a member of the contrarian, anachronistic modeling club-first of all relax because your railroad ought to work and look like you want it to. I have a great deal of admiration for those who have the resources of time, energy and dollars to do great works with the latest and most marvelous new things in the hobby. Those people are important because their contributions help drive innovations that eventually I can adopt.
Those of us who do what we can with what we have are also important, despite not being cutting edge modelers. We keep the close out bin at the hobby shops as a useful marketing tool- though it sometimes has been years before a delightful find actually finds a home on the local railroad. Repurposing items around the house to accomplish a specific look or to make something work just a tad better is as important as passing by a ready built structure because "it doesn't quite fit".
Yes, I have seen DCC layouts running exceptionally smoothly. Yes, in some ways DCC could make operations on my layout more interesting, but until the moths of responsibilty cease to eat as many holes in my wallet as they do, I will keep running in DC with blocks controlled by long suffering Atlas slide switches. Just remember, even a dinosauer can have fun!
While I am not trying to convince anyone to change, I would like to state that I have never had any problems with my DCC system. The only programming I have had to do, was to change the DCC decoder number so not everything is on 3. This was fully explained in the DCC instruction manual. I suspect that most if not all of the problems are from folks using cheaper DCC systems and/or decoders.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTERThis was fully explained in the DCC instruction manual. I suspect that most if not all of the problems are from folks using cheaper DCC systems and/or decoders.
I knew a guy that used Bachmann's E-Z DCC system with hand held and had no issues but,he used basic two DCC locomotive operation on his L shape switching layout..
My MRC Tech 6 in the DCC mode is all I need for my Bachmann DCC/Sound equipped S4..
For solo DCC/Sound locomotive operation the Tech 6 is the best way to go or by adding the T6 hand held throttle you can control up to 6 DCC locomotives.
I will be using the hand held throttle for walk around operation since my switches will be manual.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE IRONROOSTERThis was fully explained in the DCC instruction manual. I suspect that most if not all of the problems are from folks using cheaper DCC systems and/or decoders. I knew a guy that used Bachmann's E-Z DCC system with hand held and had no issues but,he used basic two DCC locomotive operation on his L shape switching layout..
I think that's a key point with the low end systems, staying with the basics.
BRAKIE My MRC Tech 6 in the DCC mode is all I need for my Bachmann DCC/Sound equipped S4.. For solo DCC/Sound locomotive operation the Tech 6 is the best way to go or by adding the T6 hand held throttle you can control up to 6 DCC locomotives. I will be using the hand held throttle for walk around operation since my switches will be manual.
I have noticed that claim about the Tech6 hand held. This sounds like it is a DCC system. Is it? or how does it differ from a true DCC system?
IRONROOSTER This sounds like it is a DCC system. Is it? or how does it differ from a true DCC system?
Paul,I call it a limited DCC system.
Here's why..
The T6 its self can operate 1 DCC engine at a time and has the capability to set all CVs..
Add the throttle and you have a simple 6 locomotive DCC system.Like all DCC systems you can set the CVs,use the sound and light features of your DCC/Sound equipped locomotives with the throttle.Of course you can address and acquire any decoder equipped locomotive.
Another little known fact is the DC mode..You can set the start and top volt for your DC engines(takes seconds)..I consisted a pair of Athearn GP38-2s by using the start and top volt..Of course once off the T6 they revert back to their regular DC operation.You can also set the momentum.
I'll share this..My T6 and throttle was less then a Zephyr even at street prices and for me the T6 meets and fills my needs and then some.
I won't go back to a regular MRC power pack..
For me, I went to DCC when I found out I needed something different in my control system a few years ago. I used walkaround DC with a wired throttle plus a couple of fixed throttles and I was *never* going to DCC. My railroad progressed to the size where the main line got past a "U" shape and started down the other side of the peninsula. My DC walkaround had a memory function - unplug the throttle and the train kept moving. In my original thinking I would just unplug the throttle and walk to the other side of the peninsula and plug in. In practice didn't work like that. I had to walk back to unplug the throttle then walk quickly to get ahead of the train to plug in to the next jack. Some day I hope to host ops sessions - imagine two or more operators on a double track main line doing this dance.
I could either invest in wireless DC throttles and additional circuitry to automate some of the block routing or move to DCC. DCC seemed easier to me. I picked the MRC wireless Prodigy system as the least cost entry with full duplex communication, meaning I could select different locos without plugging in the controller and I could stay with the train no matter where it is.
I discovered installing decoders wasn't too hard, but I have some experience with a soldering iron and assembling old Mantua locos. Programing CVs hasn't been all that hard to learn either - as long as you make notes of what you have tried and don't rely on memory!
So, bottom line to me is the technology you need to use depends on what your needs are, I guess. Unless you are a technology "heat seeker" (as a former boss used to call it) who really likes to go after the very latest.
George V.
Exactly!
I wired my layout in DC i just couldnt see paying extra money for all the bells and whistles. I love the athearn growl in my athearns i do have somewide body locos but i like em. Far as im concerned there will always be this so called war on DC by the DCC people. All my layout is analog i enoy the challange of it. Will i go to DCC i dought it unless somebody donates money to my hobby exspense. So enjoy chose what you want
cedarwoodron I am finishing the track work on my current switching layout and do not relish the thought of having wires run all over just to get two locomotives to run concurrently and independently. So, I will be wiring for DCC as I finish the track work and will gladly spend a bit of bench time wiring decoders, rather than crawl around under the table in my late fifties.
I too now have a switching layout and run three engines at various times in an operating session. Suffering from the wounded knees syndrome along with a back that doesn’t like to bend too much anymore I took a gamble and went with Prodigy Express DCC and then updated to Prodigy Advanced when I had my larger layout.
I enjoyed the challenge of installing decoders in some of my better engines and those that weren’t compatible I sold. One of the great things I discovered is that for the most part I appreciate the DCC on the much smaller switching layout for its ease of wiring and especially because of the smaller amount of track I can park any engine anyplace on the layout even next to another on the same track and run any of the others. I don’t have to throw a turnout (Pecos) or find a different block to park it in. On my larger layout I did not find DCC to be nearly as important to the operation because I’m a lone wolf and usually only ran one train at a time and had lots of space to park other engines, but I’m glad now I took the plunge.
PV Rich
fiatfan I have built some transistor throttles rather than buy the more expensive MRC type power packs. If something does go bad with the throttle, I'll just built a new one because I have no knowledge on how to repair it and the parts are cheap.
SouthgateStill, It seems that DCC is so dominant now.
Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common?
In my operating groups & club associations there is only 1 DC system left, and 1 Railcommand. The rest have all gone DCC. Those groups consist of a total of about 35 layouts (about equal mix of Lenz, NCE with a couple of Digitrax thrown in). As that DC layout is currently undergoing a major make-over I don't know that it will stay DC. Only time will tell.
The sound and fury generated by any comparison between DC and DCC operators (spelling deliberate) never ceases to amaze me. Is DCC the new religion, with an innate need to convert everybody? If it is, don't hold your breath waiting to see me, Sheldon or The Broadway Lion joining the choir. And just as long as grandparents buy train sets for their offsprings' offspring there will be new analog DC railroaders.
In my case, I readily admit being too cheap to spend money needed for other purposes on a bunch of semi-reliable electronics. My roster consists of old locos with old open-frame amp-hog motors, I like having signals that incorporate auto-stop, even if the stops are somewhat clunky. I DON'T like having banks of individual block switches - so I use a somewhat different variant of MZL and avoid the need. By keeping all the wires in clearly defined runs I avoid the dreaded under-layout spiderweb. Since those runs are just behind the fascia I do all of my electrical work while sitting in a chair in the aisleway.
Note that I'm not putting down anyone else's choice of either analog DC or DCC. I've built (and continue to build) what I want, based on MY givens and druthers (which include being able to get three, four or half-a-dozen trains rolling at one time.) Unless somebody has built an exact duplicate of my personal layout and intends to operate it to my schedule (all 146 trains per fast-time 'day') comments about DCC being better FOR ME are misinformed and irrelevant.
So I will continue to carry on carrying on - with Analog DC.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - my way)
tomikawaTTIf it is, don't hold your breath waiting to see me, Sheldon or The Broadway Lion joining the choir.
You may relax ... those of us who enjoy running our trains with DCC could not _possibly_ care less what you three do.
DC is fine if that is what you like.
BRAKIE IRONROOSTER This sounds like it is a DCC system. Is it? or how does it differ from a true DCC system? Paul,I call it a limited DCC system. Here's why.. The T6 its self can operate 1 DCC engine at a time and has the capability to set all CVs.. Add the throttle and you have a simple 6 locomotive DCC system.Like all DCC systems you can set the CVs,use the sound and light features of your DCC/Sound equipped locomotives with the throttle.Of course you can address and acquire any decoder equipped locomotive. Another little known fact is the DC mode..You can set the start and top volt for your DC engines(takes seconds)..I consisted a pair of Athearn GP38-2s by using the start and top volt..Of course once off the T6 they revert back to their regular DC operation.You can also set the momentum. I'll share this..My T6 and throttle was less then a Zephyr even at street prices and for me the T6 meets and fills my needs and then some. I won't go back to a regular MRC power pack..
Larry,
thanks for the info.
You're welcome Paul.
SouthgateStill, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common?
Dan,
I used DC for years and then I converted to DCC about 4-5 years ago. For me it was a good decision although the initial outlay of money was substantial. There are still come 'high tech' products that I won't use and it's generally a cost factor for me - Tortoise switch motors for one - I am still a twin coil guy which I buy on EBay. I would say do whatever works for you. We have had many debates here about the advantages and disadvantages of many high tech products and there are people who have strong feelings both ways. That's okay as I keep reminding myself, it's my layout and if I decide to go in a certain direction, then it's what works for me. Good luck and let's us know how things are coming along.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
Hi!
I have not read any of the previous replies, so mine might be a repeat - or something fresh...........
I'm 69 (barely) and have been a model train nut since the 1950s. In 2008 I demolished a 13 year old HO layout and built a new one - going into DCC in the process. It was not an easy decision, and there was a lot of learning and expense involved - but I am extremely glad I have done so.
But that was me, and we are talking about you. How old are you, and how serious are you about the hobby and sticking with it? If you are say under 65, and serious about the hobby, I would urge you to give DCC a try. You don't have to jump in with both feet, it can be a gradual thing. It is obviously the way of the future, and being a young man you have many years to enjoy it.
If you are older, and/or not all that serious about the hobby, then you might be better off sticking with DC, and the "knowns" of your MR world.
One thing about technology...... it will always be changing and evolving. But that doesn't mean you have to be on the "leading edge" at all. In fact, you will be much better off to go with tried and true methodology of DCC or whatever rather than the latest and greatest innovations.
Whatever you decide to do, remember you only have to please yourself. And for staying with DC, well there are plenty of guys on this Forum who have some wonderful layouts and do some really great things with their operations - and they remain with DC.
Oh, most of all................. ENJOY !!!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Left behind by technology. No, your not alone and if anyone thinks they are abreast of technology they are kidding themselves! I wouldn't worry about it. If you like running your trains with DC, what is wrong with that?
I converted to DCC back in 2002 or so and like what it has to offer. Make use of the technology that interests you and leave the rest for others; or, maybe you'll develop an interest later on. This is a hobby that we do for fun. Leave the not so fun alone and carry-on!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Technology moves forward and in every step MR gets better and better. Young folks work with tech better than old folks who have grown to resist change or aren't up to some major transition. This may be due to older folks on a limited budget or just not able to understand some of the new technological actions.
At some point, DC will probably become a small part of MR, but that day is not yet here. The old cadre will have to die off and in 2066 the 15 year olds of today so eager to embrace DCC will resist the new fangled MCMR (Mind Controlled Model Railroading). In 2085 there will be a minor nostalgic movement to go back to a lost era of simple DC operation and original 140 year old Varney docksides are worth hundreds as collectables.....Or you can 3D print one and just buy a replica pittman motor for it.
Note: I am one of the older guys, 68 years old and have built several DC layouts since 1959, but went 100% DCC in 2010. I'm ready for MCMR right now!
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
narrow gauge nuclear Young folks work with tech better than old folks who have grown to resist change or aren't up to some major transition. This may be due to older folks on a limited budget or just not able to understand some of the new technological actions. Richard
Young folks work with tech better than old folks who have grown to resist change or aren't up to some major transition. This may be due to older folks on a limited budget or just not able to understand some of the new technological actions.
Could it just be that as we get older, we have been subjected to so much change in our lives, seen some improvements; but,seen much that is more complicated, risky, costly and maybe not all that worthwhile, that we start viewing change as just a way for companies to assure themselves of income in the future? While I personally feel that DCC is a worthwhile change, I have no problem with others not feeling that way. Or, how about the fact that few locomotives now, are available for less than $200.00, when just a few short years ago I could buy a simple to assemble kit locomotive for $35.00 and invest another $25.00 to $35.00 in detail parts and have a locomotive that was almost as good as the higher cost locomotives of today. Then top that off with the fact that I had fun building the loco, myself. Makes me wonder if this is really change for the better?
NP2626Or, how about the fact that few locomotives now, are available for less than $200.00, when just a few short years ago I could buy a simple to assemble kit locomotive for $35.00 and invest another $25.00 to $35.00 in detail parts and have a locomotive that was almost as good as the higher cost locomotives of today.
Thanks I'll take a cheap $200 off the shelf prototypically accurate Genesis, Intermountain, or Proto-2000 any day.
BRAKIE Southgate Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan Dan,There is far more DC users then DCC users based on the fact the manufacturers are still producing DCC ready locomotives and decoder manfacturers are still producing dual mode sound decoders...MRC Tech 6 power pack is dual mode..There is five HO clubs within 30 miles of where I live none are DCC. Don't let the on line hype misguide you..They are still thousand of modelers still using older Athearn wide body locomotives that doesn't worry about the so called "growl"..There are many modelers that lament the passing of Athearn car kits...I still like and use Athearn GP7s.I still have my collection of Athearn and MDC cars. I have one DCC/Sound equiped locomotive..I use MRC's Tech 6 in the DCC mode for that one engine..90% of the time the Tech 6 stays in DC mode. BTW..My modeling style is the one I been using for at least 50 years-close enough/good enough.I did try "advanced modeling" for five years and decided I wasn't happy with that style.
Southgate Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan
Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common?
Dan
Dan,There is far more DC users then DCC users based on the fact the manufacturers are still producing DCC ready locomotives and decoder manfacturers are still producing dual mode sound decoders...MRC Tech 6 power pack is dual mode..There is five HO clubs within 30 miles of where I live none are DCC.
Don't let the on line hype misguide you..They are still thousand of modelers still using older Athearn wide body locomotives that doesn't worry about the so called "growl"..There are many modelers that lament the passing of Athearn car kits...I still like and use Athearn GP7s.I still have my collection of Athearn and MDC cars.
I have one DCC/Sound equiped locomotive..I use MRC's Tech 6 in the DCC mode for that one engine..90% of the time the Tech 6 stays in DC mode.
BTW..My modeling style is the one I been using for at least 50 years-close enough/good enough.I did try "advanced modeling" for five years and decided I wasn't happy with that style.
Nope, you're not alone. I figured that if I installed sound decoders in all of my locomotives, it would run me over $1800 just for the decoders. Add the cost of the power unit and booster, and yikes! I'm still able to m.u. locomotives by using the same model locomotive by the same manufacturer. I don't know if I'll ever bite that bullet.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Texas Zepher NP2626Or, how about the fact that few locomotives now, are available for less than $200.00, when just a few short years ago I could buy a simple to assemble kit locomotive for $35.00 and invest another $25.00 to $35.00 in detail parts and have a locomotive that was almost as good as the higher cost locomotives of today. Not my experience. I did several of those super-detail conversions way back when. Can motors were EXPENSIVE back then, LEDs non-existant, I discovered the micro-minature 1.5V. lamps from PFM and used them but they were like $5 each. Hand rails (don't forget scraping off the old molded on ones), horns, reworking the windshields, windsheld wipers, redoing the hoods and vents, speedometer cables, lift rings, coupler lift bars, MU cables, fuel fillers, etc. Often spent over $200 in parts AND 50 hours of effort. That is not accounting or the devaluation of the dollar nor the either $30 LTM for sound or $60 CTC-16 decoder to put into it. Thanks I'll take a cheap $200 off the shelf prototypically accurate Genesis, Intermountain, or Proto-2000 any day.
Obviously, I was happier with the models I built and detailed then you were with yours. I didn't replace the motor that came with the loco, nor did I add every detail that you felt so important. I'm happy with the fact that you want to pay what you pay for a locomotive, can you be happy with the fact that I don't want to pay what your willing to pay?
My background: I was firmly entrenched in DC. Built my own walk-around throttles. Home layout has always been a one man operation. Occasionally, a single guest would be added. Dual cab control was the normal setup, with the second cab being used very rarely. Having an electrical engineering background gave me the ability to employ MZL concepts, X blocks, switch machine contacts, and other methods to minimize the number of block toggles.
I joined an HOn3 modular club 2 years ago. Blackstone locomotives - which most club members own - aren't worth the price without DCC control to make use of the sound. The modular (HOn3 Free-mo) layout typically is point-to-point with at least one branch, a wye or two, and perhaps a turntable. During most of a train show, the goal is to keep several trains running over the layout. Purpose of the train is up to the operator. At a specified hour, we'll change to scheduled operations for a while.
We've had a variety of problems with the DCC system. In most train show venues, the operating layouts tend to be clustered in the same area. As a result, wireless control is mostly useless due to interference from one layout to another. Auto-reversers and local circuit breakers have interfered with each other (can't convince the others to use switch machine contacts instead of auto-reversers for our simple reversing configurations). Duplicate engine numbers have appeared on the layout, also causing confusion. Using another member's engine can surprise you (consternation city!) until you know how momentum, start voltage, and other CVs are programmed in that particular locomotive. A registry has to be kept of throttle number assignments (we use NCE) to prevent more surprises. And if the club member uses a different throttle number at home, he has to remember to reprogram the throttle at the setup. And from walking around at the shows, I've discovered we are not unique in our DCC issues.
Now the show environment combined with individually owned and built and wired modules is about as challenging as it gets. We do successfully operate about 80% of every show we setup, overcoming the issues. We'd just like to conquer that last 20% every show. Making DC work in the same environment would not be significantly easier. And DC would not be as supportive of free ops as DCC. The crowd does enjoy the sounds of our K-27s and C-19s as they cross the trestles or thread the river valleys.
While I could stay DC at home, my locomotives need decoders to use at the club. And once a decoder is installed, there is little point in not making the change to DCC at home. Making the change allows me to thoroughly test my modules at home so that I'm not the culprit at the show. OTOH, since my locomotives need remotoring, regearing, or just plain building from kits and bashes, I prefer to test and get the performance I want on DC before adding a decoder. So I'm maintaining both DC and DCC at home.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Fred,
Good to hear from you, glad all that is working out.
In your case I think DCC is the obvious choice.
Thanks for offering your thoughts.
Sheldon
Southgate I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits. I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee. Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan Dan, I am in the process of building my newest layout and before I even had a track plan I decided to go with DC only. My layout will be able to keep 5 or 6 operators busy with section blocks or I will be able to run it myself. Manual switches (ground throws), manual uncoupling and a host of other things that a train crew would have to do will keep everone or one busy. Modeling 1956. I looked at DCC and really liked th individual train control, but not the sound. It seems to me a that having several engines running in one room would have me on a dead track babbling to my self in no time. I know you can turn the sound down (off?) but if I don't want it why install it? The prices are onother thing. I'll buy some locos and cars at swap meets get everything up to snuff and enjoy it. Like you, scenery is some of my favorite jobs, list behind detailing scenery. But I can't do #2 before #1 so.... I fell if someone doesn't like or looks down on DC, then don't come around. If you want to try out my stuff or just sit around and kibitz, Welcome! I'm in this hobby for fun and what I think is fun. Good luck on your layout, and don't let the *%#@^+>'s get you down.
I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits.
I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
I only got an iPad and joined the computer age because of my new found love of model railroading. I was quite happy reading books.No your not alone, I'm dc now, dcc as soon as it suits me. I thought a troll lived under a bridge and a lurker was someone hiding in the bushes. While I'm at it, I picked up a British model train mag first off, then I discovered MRR magazine and hav'nt looked back. I like U.S diesels 4 a number of reasons but no.1 is, in a way, they remind me of my dad who worked 4 a U.S company. I hope I hav'nt hijacked the thread but I left school early and worked hard and as I said,
IT'S ALL NEW TO ME.
take it easy and have a good 1.
Robert. Australia.
This has been a very strange read for me. I don't understand why people get so upset in the DC/DCC discussion. I believe it should be DC OR DCC, NOT DC VERSUS DCC!
I personally don't care what system you use to run your trains. You should not care what I use to run mine. We're all having fun, so why does it matter?
I made the switch over to DCC not because it was the latest and greatest, but because it is the best for me! I don't particularly like wiring, and doing all the wiring required for DC operation would have cost me over twice what DCC has cost so far, and the layout is 75% complete track and wiring wise. All visible track is hand laid, and all turnouts, including the hidden ones in my two staging yards are all manually thrown. I did however, use the DC wiring rules for power routing turnouts, (taken from the original, "How to Wire Your Model Railroad", from Kalmbach first published in the 50's), and have had zero electrical problems with my turnouts, or any other track as well.
Like DocWayne, in my era locomotives did not run with their lights on in the daytime. So I'm not worried about headlights being able to be turned on or off. Simple, cheaper, 2 function decoders from almost all the makers have worked for me. 90% of my locos, (total of 32), have been DCC equipped. Sound wise, I have 1 loco that's sound equipped. That is a concession to my Grandson. There will not be any others.
I don't need anything else to do what I want. Sheldon doesn't need any other system to run his as he wants, neither does Brakie, Alcofan, Chuck, 4-12-2 or Crandell. I wouldn't tell them or anyone else otherwise. I would expect that anyone else would show the same courtesy toward me.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member