Many times when we have posted a thread here on the Model Railroader Forums, it seems as though the original thought just doesn't get through. Some folks seem to only be interested in arguing about everything. I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees. It appears to me that there are some who have no tolerance for different points of view and think that we're all supposed to think like they do. I thought I was born in the United States, where I have the freedom to choose what I want to think about things.
This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I agree with you. I have been finding the same thing lately.
The down side of this is that new modelers are not going to get the correct information when they ask a question because I am not going to butt heads with other answers.
AND, the new folks think they can get EVERYTHING over the Internet, when all of the good answers are in books.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
to be honest I could barely understand the how to wire MRR book that I purchased a while back, I was going to post a build thread for my new layout but after reading some of the responses in the Layout building section it's not gonna happen.
as for some of the responses on this forum, I feel I see it more often than I should but then I remember it could be worse.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
NP2626
Many people do not like unsolicited advice. I am occasionally guilty of givind such advice. That being said, I also prequalify my statements by saying that it is and that I respectfully give such advice and that is strictly my opinion and they can take it and do with it what they want. I do believe that some of us do come across as being critical or crass when offering such opinion or advice. It just takes a small bit of tact.
NP2626Many times when we have posted a thread here on the Model Railroader Forums, it seems as though the original thought just doesn't get through. Some folks seem to only be interested in arguing about everything. I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees.
There are also people here whose hobby it is to count rivets.
If a thought does not get through, and that is easy to do, it may be that something was not clear to the readers. Remember, regardless of how well you frame your question, each reader will see something different. That is why we have precise words to express what we mean, and even then there are differences in what we call things in model railroading, and what railroaders call things in their own world.
If someone 'corrects" you, let it slide. Either they are trying to be helpful, or maybe trying to be funny (and that is the domain of a LION), or they are just trying to clarify something. Or it could simply be that they are truly off in a different world.
Let it slide, let it slide. Do not take things like that to heart. When you post, you are going to get some weird answers along with the good ones. Most people do not mean to be hurtful, and some (like the LION) have a short attention span and are easily distracted into posting something entirely different on a thread that you may have started.
Remember, that even though may have started a thread on one topic, it may drift (likely will drift) and the response that irks you might not be in response to you at all, but rather in response to someone else in the thread.
THIS FORUM does not keep good track of who is replying to whom: It lists the replies in the order that they were received. It would be a very good practice to click the reply button on the post to which you are responding, and then to highlight the text that you are responding to and click the "Quote" link. It will quote only those lines that you have highlighted, and then we can all see who is replying to what.
But while that would be nice, Such will never be the uniform way of responding to people. If you have an issue with something that someone had said, make a polite private message to them for if it may be the case that they did not understand you, it is also likely that you in turn did not understand them. Several people called out the LION (if you an imagine that) on the use of the LION and of the third person, and I have always responded kindly to them and have thus increased our mutual understanding.
Methinks it works quite well, but it is a public forum, and you must expect things to take unexpected terns. (Cats like taking terns)
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
The biggest problem with forums is the written word and its interpretation by the reader and there are those that has thin skin and thinks a normal discussion is argumentative because a different point of views is given..
What to do?
Fully understand not everybody is going to give the same point of view on a given subject and take what is said as a point of view.
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As far as books vs. the internet I found there's more information on the net then any one book can supply and that's not including the tutorial videos on youtube.
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As far as modeling advice the replies will depend on one's experience on the subject and that experience will vary from modeler to modeler..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I had 2 first thoughts about the original post.
1. This is likely to be lively and for the interest of peace, just not post it.
2. There really are only a few who normally get going on things, but they're passionate and love their hobby.
These kind of forums have a wide variety of participants and those participants cause a reputation for a forum to develop. I hope this one has an overall reputation of being helpful.
Richard
Those who have responded before me have said it well. This forum is a source of advice and information, without peer, from those with experience. At times, it is also the stomping ground for over-developed and unrestrained egos.
Tolerance and respect, brothers and sisters.
Wilton.
Perspective is a funny thing.
Everything posted on these forums is open to comment, and everyone has their own opinion about the topic that was posted. If someone doesn't want a discussion that might reveal opinions at variance with their own, they should refrain from posting and keep their opinion private.
I find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Every person who starts a thread 'own's that thread, and is responsible for managing it. If that person finds it being 'polluted' with trivial, distracting, combative, and otherwise unhelpful responses, it is up to that person to ask, civilly, for the discussion to be limited to certain constraints.
If a fight breaks out, and it serves to limit further participation except for gawkers who have nothing better to do, there is always recourse to the moderators. Also, a pm to the person who seems to be persisting in taking the discussion afield can often help.
Point is, like anything else worthwhile and valuable, it takes effort and time. This forum isn't like starting up a layout and watching the train run around a long wide main...it takes some 'operational' commitment. but it also takes some good will. Appeal to that good will from time to time, or use a pm and ask the person to stop posting to your thread. Then go to the mods.
Crandell
selector Appeal to that good will from time to time, or use a pm and ask the person to stop posting to your thread. Then go to the mods.
If it goes that far then the moderators should have already intervene and ended the back and forth after all that's their job to police discussions and not the OP job..
Of course troll type questions and topics should be locked and/or deleted long before the flames build.
selector Every person who starts a thread 'own's that thread, and is responsible for managing it. If that person finds it being 'polluted' with trivial, distracting, combative, and otherwise unhelpful responses, it is up to that person to ask, civilly, for the discussion to be limited to certain constraints.
I need to disagree with this. That is why we have actual moderators...they signed up for it so let them do the dirty work.
I am not, and never will be, a moderator on any board. Life is too short for that. I would rather be modeling!
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
NP2626 This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
uh huh...I mean, yea - i.e. yes.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
NP2626This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
Agreed, NP. The Cranky Old Fart Factor in here is pretty high at times.
I do, however, believe that most people active on this forum understand that the sheer variety of approaches to... well... just about anything in this hobby is a strength, not a liability. There's a million ways to get things accomplished in MRRing; some work better than others, granted, but very rarely is there one and only one 'right' answer. The individuals who insist their way is the only way aren't seeing the forest for the trees, and their workmanship will likely suffer for it...
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves.
To the other sub-theme. Does this new forum software really allow the person who started the thread to moderate it? I don't start enough threads to notice things like that. If true, it seems a pretty cool feature.
Texas Zepher BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves. Thanks Mark. I wasn't going to post to this thread until I saw your post. What you said is exactly what I was thinking.
Me, also.
Texas Zepher To the other sub-theme. Does this new forum software really allow the person who started the thread to moderate it? I don't start enough threads to notice things like that. If true, it seems a pretty cool feature.
No, nothing has changed. TZ. Crandell's point was that an OP should feel at liberty to "guide" the conversation if it gets/starts to get off-track.
Sometimes the conversation naturally changes course over time as the thread develops. Other times forum members can do this willingly (someone with an axe to grind) or unwillingly - e.g. a new member who jumps in with a question of their own rather than starting an entirely new thread.
Tom
trwroute selector Every person who starts a thread 'own's that thread, and is responsible for managing it. If that person finds it being 'polluted' with trivial, distracting, combative, and otherwise unhelpful responses, it is up to that person to ask, civilly, for the discussion to be limited to certain constraints. I need to disagree with this. That is why we have actual moderators...they signed up for it so let them do the dirty work. I am not, and never will be, a moderator on any board. Life is too short for that. I would rather be modeling!
You compose a request for information/go to a car dealership. In both cases, you have a focus and an interest in acquiring a certain item or bit of information.
After three or four exchanges of information, in both scenarios, one bystander offers that you're in the wrong hobby/scale/era/orientation/dealership/type of car and suggests that you think of something else, or change your mind entirely and try what he likes. Say the salesperson at a hobby shop or at the car dealership does this. Do you go along with his suggestion that you really want a $40K heavy duty truck, or one with a diesel and not a gas engine, when what you came in for was a compact four-door with a four-banger in it because all you could spend were $17K? If you do, then you are going to be very unhappy, and you would, if honest and responsible, have only yourself to blame.
My position is that we are mostly grownups here, and when we present ourselves in words, it is up to each of us to manage what transpires as a result of what we post. Running to the mods is always an option, but grownups should have the courage and autonomy to attempt to manage/force the conversation to be limited to the parameters they carefully set out in their original post. That's the way I have lived, have taught, and was expected to act as an officer in the military. I call it ownership, and said as much in my first post.
Having acted as a moderator, both here and elsewhere, I was happy to help keep discussions moving along smoothly and civilly. I didn't mind. But as a participant on fora all over the place, I was always happiest when I could keep the reins and manage my own way ahead, and admired those who felt the same way and managed theirs.
maxman Texas Zepher BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves. Thanks Mark. I wasn't going to post to this thread until I saw your post. What you said is exactly what I was thinking. Me, also.
Ditto.
As for wandering off-topic, sometimes it adds perspective to the discussion or touches on related topics. Unless the conversation totally changes directions afterwards, I see no harm in it.
Wayne
selector You compose a request for information/go to a car dealership. In both cases, you have a focus and an interest in acquiring a certain item or bit of information. After three or four exchanges of information, in both scenarios, one bystander offers that you're in the wrong hobby/scale/era/orientation/dealership/type of car and suggests that you think of something else, or change your mind entirely and try what he likes. Say the salesperson at a hobby shop or at the car dealership does this. Do you go along with his suggestion that you really want a $40K heavy duty truck, or one with a diesel and not a gas engine, when what you came in for was a compact four-door with a four-banger in it because all you could spend were $17K? If you do, then you are going to be very unhappy, and you would, if honest and responsible, have only yourself to blame. My position is that we are mostly grownups here, and when we present ourselves in words, it is up to each of us to manage what transpires as a result of what we post. Running to the mods is always an option, but grownups should have the courage and autonomy to attempt to manage/force the conversation to be limited to the parameters they carefully set out in their original post. That's the way I have lived, have taught, and was expected to act as an officer in the military. I call it ownership, and said as much in my first post. Having acted as a moderator, both here and elsewhere, I was happy to help keep discussions moving along smoothly and civilly. I didn't mind. But as a participant on fora all over the place, I was always happiest when I could keep the reins and manage my own way ahead, and admired those who felt the same way and managed theirs. Crandell
Crandell - Believe it or not, I do see your point, but it is also a little like comparing apples to oranges. In your scenario, I would be spending my hard-earned cash, and because of that, only I would know what it is I need and want. In the example of posting on the boards, if I don't like what I see or read in a thread, I move on. Pretty simple. If it's a thread that I started, it's still no big deal because I realize that some like to stir the pot.
To be honest, of the few topics that I have started on various boards, I have never had any problems with any poster. Maybe it's because, if you'll notice, I don't post a whole lot.
Some times the fault cuts both ways. There have been lots of time that an OP replies to a sincere post on a thread in a way that can appear pretty intolerant to the poster. The OP may not realize how his or her post reads, and thinks he or she is being tolerant. In the mind of the poster the OP has insulted or demeaned the poster who responds negatively. The OP feels innocent and wronged by the response and so the death spiral begins.
Attempts to rigidly control the content of thread also have a history of ending up badly. The thread starts in one directions, but at some point somebody inserts a junction and the thread starts down a different path. If a gentle nudge doesn't work, my suggestion would be not to engage the people heading off down the branch, but to revive the discussion of the main topic. People repond to the most recent posts most often. Just make sure the main topic stays fresh on the list. As soon as the thread devolves into a debate on the management of the thread itself, and not the topic, it becomes an endangered species.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
David, I believe you mean long - long - short - long...
wasn't it in Pulp Fiction where she asked him "Does he listen, or does he wait to talk?"
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
It may be time for this one to go to "Bed"
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
yeah, there are a few on here that remind me of the little kid back in school that always had his hand waving in the air and never gave anybody else a chance to respond to anything.
those kind always have an opinion on every subject, even if they have to stop and do a google to find out what it is.
the anonymity of the internet keeps them safe. we used to catch them after school, take their pants away, and throw them up into a tree. (the pants, not the kid.)
charlie
bogp40 It may be time for this one to go to "Bed"
I'll leave this one open for awhile yet....if it goes into flaming individuals those posts will be deleted..or thread locked....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Personally, I enjoy a lively discussion. But some folks take this stuff way too seriously, not to mention those who start getting personal. As a result I try to keep to the plain vanilla. But I'm always happy to share what knowledge I have and provide an opinion based on what works for me. This is a hobby and as long as you don't hurt someone else you're free to enjoy the hobby however it appeals to you.
I know it gets said a lot, but a forum like this is pretty one dimensional. We don't get the clues from tone of voice, body language, etc. that you get in real face to face discussion. The written word can seem much harsher than intended and makes it easy to misunderstand what others meant, or when they're kidding a little bit. It also doesn't allow us to see that someone is getting upset when we didn't intend to offend.
Enjoy
Paul
I was tempted to join Doctorwayne, Maxman and Brunton but I prefer to applaud to lions' wisdom.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
doctorwayne maxman Texas Zepher BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves. Thanks Mark. I wasn't going to post to this thread until I saw your post. What you said is exactly what I was thinking. Me, also. Ditto.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I'm not sure I understand the problem. Threads usually veer off because somebody reads something in the thread that, basically, allows them to start talking about what they want to talk about.
Kind of like being at a party where the same people tell the same stories year after year.
No need to get angry. Just smile....nod...and keep talking about what you want to talk about, not what they want to talk about.
I guess I agree with Crandell. Thread maintenance. Oftentimes when things veer off, the OP disappears or gets caught up in the new discussion/argument. That's the real problem.
- Douglas