There's been a lot of good replies to this thread and I appreciate almost everything you folks have said. I would suggest if your going to reply to the O.P., you should really read the first post. That way, you won't get confused by other statements made, that may; or, may not have anything to do with the original thought. I understand that threads can and do veer of topic and that isn't what this thread is about!
I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times, actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us. Some people have no interest in finding any type of appeasement. Also, to think there are not trolls lurking about on internet forums, is very naive!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626 Many times when we have posted a thread here on the Model Railroader Forums, it seems as though the original thought just doesn't get through. Some folks seem to only be interested in arguing about everything. I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees. It appears to me that there are some who have no tolerance for different points of view and think that we're all supposed to think like they do. I thought I was born in the United States, where I have the freedom to choose what I want to think about things. This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
Many times when we have posted a thread here on the Model Railroader Forums, it seems as though the original thought just doesn't get through. Some folks seem to only be interested in arguing about everything. I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees. It appears to me that there are some who have no tolerance for different points of view and think that we're all supposed to think like they do. I thought I was born in the United States, where I have the freedom to choose what I want to think about things.
This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
Perhaps it is exact wording. Because if its not about a thread veering off course, which I read as being the case when you say the "original thought doesn't get through and that people are only interested in arguing about everything", I'm not sure what its about.
Perhaps I'll repeat the first line of my post. I'm not sure I understand what the problem is.
Is the problem that somebody may offer a different opinion than the OP within the OP's thread? Or that they don't understand the OP's opinion in the first place?
- Douglas
NP2626 I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us.
I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us.
How has that worked out for you?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
In light of this thread, go back and reread the first 3 posts of the new wheels design thread.
Interesting juxtaposition.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Another thing that requires thicker skin and more introspection when having a written message conversation, is that there is no inflections or tone of voice to go off. When speaking face to face one can say something a bit wrong and immediately have feedback that they weren't understood or even misunderstood. That can be immediately corrected and the conversation continues. If someone is immediately offended for something written slightly wrong or strangely in one of these message threads then the conversation can come to an immediate halt or hackles go up the flame wars can begin for no real reason at all.
Geared Steam NP2626 I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us. How has that worked out for you?
Isn't my answer to your question, in what you quoted me to have said?
TZ...
I think you made sound observations and have given useful advice, but I think this thread is more about the OP having a reaction to responses in other threads, rather than trying to be constructive.
Its a thread about threads. Useless to everybody, and remotely significant only to those few people that were involved in the previous chippy banter.
Later...
I like trains.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
DoughlessIs the problem that somebody may offer a different opinion than the OP within the OP's thread? Or that they don't understand the OP's opinion in the first place?
It might be six of one and half dozen of the other unless of course the OP wants 100% agreement for his/her thoughts and don't want anybody to give another point of view that differs from their idea.
The cold facts is I never seen a full agreement in any topic in the 12 years I been active on forums..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
NP2626 .......I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees.......
.......I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees.......
Gidday, after 27 years of working with aircraft maintenance manuals, getting text correct so that everyone has a clear understanding of what's required is, in my opinion a virtual impossibility, so while I do try to be concise when I'm asking a question here, considering the international flavour even though this forum is U.S based, I do sometimes struggle.
However on a thread that invites opinion well, apart from common courtesy, the skies ( and what the moderators will tolerate) the limit.
There's nothing like a good robust debate, but when it comes to my opinion I know that I'm always right, it's just that I'm far too humble and modest to say so, heck I even managed type that with a straight face.
BTW, I've always considered the Douglas DC3 / C47 manual the best I've worked with.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
BEAR!
DC3
Last time I flew in one was in Sweden in 1972. I was a Royal Canadian Air Cadet on an international exchange trip and I was having the time of my life! (I was 17). The Swedish Air Force had polished the DC3 so much it was hard to look at in the sun. I got one of the biggest thrills in my life when we flew into a thunderhead (yes the pilot did it intentionally - he had a bunch of cocky kids on board!) The down draft caused the seatbelts, which the pilot had not bothered to tell us to put on, to stand straight up in the air! We were floating off our seats and howling with delight!!!
NOW, if ever there was an example of hijacking a thread.......
To address the general subject that the OP raised: I disagree that tone and attitude, and feeling for that matter, cannot be conveyed in print. If that were true we would have a severe shortage of entertaining books to read.
I have suffered no shortage of responses to my threads where the put down was short and (not so) sweet. I recently asked about how to improve the motor control on a Tsunami decoder in a Bachmann Spectrum FM H16-44 loco. One responder who I shall not name asked if any of the respondents had bothered to notice the locomotive into which I was attempting to install the decoder. He essentially dismissed it as being a piece of cr.p . He did not address me in his response in any way, shape or form. I noted his terse response but I decided to persevere with the Bachmann locomotive because I do not quit easily. Shortly later however, after I had asked a few more questions, said responder posted bemoning how I had ignored his original advise. To add to his disrespect, he said that I would probably ignore his second post as well. His wording spoke volumes about his attitude towards others. If you couldn't detect his know it all attitude in his terse language, then I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you!
My point is that there will always be nasty people in your life. How you deal with them is your choice. You can let them get under your skin, or not!
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Doughless Perhaps it is exact wording. Because if its not about a thread veering off course, which I read as being the case when you say the "original thought doesn't get through and that people are only interested in arguing about everything", I'm not sure what its about. Perhaps I'll repeat the first line of my post. I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. Is the problem that somebody may offer a different opinion than the OP within the OP's thread? Or that they don't understand the OP's opinion in the first place?
The intent of the first post in this thread was to discuss the fact that as model railroaders, with like interests, I find it difficult to understand why there is so much discord here on this forum.
The "Dotting of the Eye and crossing of the Tee" is in reference to attempting to keep from offending those who I seem to offend.
NP2626The intent of the first post in this thread was to discuss the fact that as model railroaders, with like interests, I find it difficult to understand why there is so much discord here on this forum.
Maybe its like I said misinterpretation of the written word? Maybe the OP expects 100% agreement with his/her thoughts or solutions? Maybe some don't know how to express their selves? Having thin skin on a forum doesn't help either.
At any rate when there's dozens of regular posters on a forum you're going to see some discord..If there is one thing I learn early is never take anything personal and expect the worst from some.
Some times I chuckle over the way some gets bent out of shape over a different point of view or modeling methods learned from hands on experience and first hand observation because it goes against how they do it or what Joe Blow the "expert" said in his books or magazine article..
Think of this..Forums is like changing a light bulb.
You have those that that will go into lengthly explanations on the correct way to change said light bulb.
You have those that say their way is the best way of changing said bulb.
You have those that say brand X makes junk bulbs you need to replace it with brand Y bulbs.
You have those that will simply replace the bulb and move on.
And then....
You will have those to call in question the method the bulb changer used to achieve the goal of replacing said bulb.
NP2626 The intent of the first post in this thread was to discuss the fact that as model railroaders, with like interests, I find it difficult to understand why there is so much discord here on this forum. The "Dotting of the Eye and crossing of the Tee" is in reference to attempting to keep from offending those who I seem to offend.
dehusman NP2626 The intent of the first post in this thread was to discuss the fact that as model railroaders, with like interests, I find it difficult to understand why there is so much discord here on this forum. The "Dotting of the Eye and crossing of the Tee" is in reference to attempting to keep from offending those who I seem to offend. If you want to understand then read the first 4 posts of your wheel shape thread. Post 1. You propose a change. Post 2. Someone presents a counter position. Post 3. You offend the poster. If you disagree that your response was confrontational, then read the 4th post. What that says is that a disinterested observer has identified your response as being offensive. If you want to know exactly where that thread derailed, its that third post. That set a confrontational tone for the rest of the thread. You personally ignited your own thread. You created the discord. And that's not just me saying that. Read the 4th post. It was apparent to other people too. They spotted the seeds of discord immediately.
While I have followed this thread, I have resisted replying until now.
I am not going to defend this thread or the merits of it.
But, I don't think that the 3rd post on the Wheels thread was offensive.
Not only is Brakie thick skinned, but the message that the OP posted in reply to Brakie's post was really much ado about nothing. There was no personal attack or name calling in the reply, and it did not put down Brakie in any manner. It simply acknowledged that Brakie was not in favor of pursuing the wheel change.
Is this the offensive comment?
O.K., that's one vote for not improving the hobby and equipment we use.
Offensive? Hardly.
As far as the 4th post in the Wheels thread, that was one guy saying, here we go again. I don't view that reply as a statement that the OP's reply was offensive, it seems more of an anticipation of another contentious debate.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain But, I don't think that the 3rd post on the Wheels thread was offensive. Not only is Brakie thick skinned, but the message that the OP posted in reply to Brakie's post was really much ado about nothing. There was no personal attack or name calling in the reply, and it did not put down Brakie in any manner. It simply acknowledged that Brakie was not in favor of pursuing the wheel change.
While maybe not necessarily outright offensive, Rich, the initial response of "O.K., that's one vote for not improving the hobby and equipment we use" came across - at least to me - as somewhat flippant, condescending, and unnecessary. Those are the kind of statements and tones that can be easily misinterpreted, if done unintentionally. The rest of the response was fine.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
richhotrainNot only is Brakie thick skinned, but the message that the OP posted in reply to Brakie's post was really much ado about nothing. There was no personal attack or name calling in the reply, and it did not put down Brakie in any manner. It simply acknowledged that Brakie was not in favor of pursuing the wheel change.
If you read a little farther down you would see I suggested the wheels could be a OEM product.
Yes,I have very thick skin when it comes to some improvements I don't want nor need but,may end up paying for but,I can be fair minded that's why I suggested the wheels could be a OEM product for those that want 'em.
I wasn't offended at all by NP2626 reply.
Why is this thread in this section of the Forum?
But I'm reminded of what a very smart and insightful man told me years ago.............
Some people can say "good morning" and totally tick off the recipiant (not the exact wording, for that would get me kicked off the Forum).
He also said, "tact & diplomacy is being able to tell someone to go to Hades, and have them look forward to the trip"
Some good observations there for sure..................
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
While Larry may not have been offended by the remark in that third post, I have to agree with Dave and Tom that it came across as condescending, whether or not that was the intention.
When I first joined this Forum, I thought the smilies option to be an unnecessary and frivolous feature, but I soon realised its value in adding voice inflections to our written word.
It can be a useful tool for many of us who don't (but should) think about the fact that writing in the same manner as we'd normally speak doesn't always "sound" the same when seen on one's monitor.
I don't know NP2626's personality, but his remark could have retained its "edge", but omitted the "slap" simply by the addition of a little embellishment:
NP2626O.K., that's one vote for not improving the hobby and equipment we use. ......
Because someone thinks differently than you, or uses a method, or material unlike the ones you use, doesn't make you wrong or right any more than it makes them right or wrong, simply different. Even a discussion in which everyone seems to be in agreement surely needs to have room for the little boy who points out that the emperor is naked.
Wayne
doctorwayne When I first joined this Forum, I thought the smilies option to be an unnecessary and frivolous feature, but I soon realised its value in adding voice inflections to our written word.
Wayne, I find that remark particularly offensive.
tstage richhotrain But, I don't think that the 3rd post on the Wheels thread was offensive. Not only is Brakie thick skinned, but the message that the OP posted in reply to Brakie's post was really much ado about nothing. There was no personal attack or name calling in the reply, and it did not put down Brakie in any manner. It simply acknowledged that Brakie was not in favor of pursuing the wheel change. While maybe not necessarily outright offensive, Rich, the initial response of "O.K., that's one vote for not improving the hobby and equipment we use" came across - at least to me - as somewhat flippant, condescending, and unnecessary.
While maybe not necessarily outright offensive, Rich, the initial response of "O.K., that's one vote for not improving the hobby and equipment we use" came across - at least to me - as somewhat flippant, condescending, and unnecessary.
Maybe the better term would be "dismissive".
richhotrain doctorwayne When I first joined this Forum, I thought the smilies option to be an unnecessary and frivolous feature, but I soon realised its value in adding voice inflections to our written word. Wayne, I find that remark particularly offensive. Rich
That's why I like this guy,,,,, ''He's silly,at the correct time''
Cheers,
Frank
zstripe That's why I like this guy,,,,, ''He's silly,at the correct time''
doctorwayne Perhaps I'll simply feel contrite - an outright apology seems excessive.
Perhaps I'll simply feel contrite - an outright apology seems excessive.
Nuts, I was hoping for an outright apology.
Now, I don't know what to do,
Is feeling contrite the equivalent of a half-hearted apology?
Brakie,
Most here, feel I owe you an apology and after considering what these folks have said about it, I can see that it was condescending and uncalled for. So, please accept my apology!
Mark
I do not recall making statements that I was flawless. Quite to the contrary, I've talked about dotting my Eyes and crossing my Tees, meaning attempting to make sure I haven't "busted anybody's chops" in the process of speaking my mind.
NP2626 I do not recall making statements that I was flawless. Quite to the contrary, I've talked about dotting my Eyes and crossing my Tees, meaning attempting to make sure I haven't "busted anybody's chops" in the process of speaking my mind.
None of us are flawless.
I was told once that one way to reduce conflict is to try and use first or third person. If I express and opinion in the first person, I, me, it provides a target that is harder to to argue with and its less "threatening" because its about "me' and not about "you". Putting things in the third person, they,them, is less likely to create an arguement since it becomes more abstract and may seem less personal. Using the 2nd person (you) is more direct, singles out a specific person and can be taken as threatening or accusitory.
As in :
As far as weathering engines goes......
1st - I have screwed up my models by applying paint too heavily.
2nd - you have screwed up your models by applying paint too heavily.
3rd - people have screwed up their models by applying paint too heavily.
Not saying I have the forethought to do that all the time, but it often helps
BroadwayLion It would be a very good practice to click the reply button on the post to which you are responding, and then to highlight the text that you are responding to and click the "Quote" link. It will quote only those lines that you have highlighted, and then we can all see who is replying to what.
Thanks for pointing this out; I have been around over a year and wondered "how to". I'll strive to apply this when appropriate.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
richhotrain doctorwayne Perhaps I'll simply feel contrite - an outright apology seems excessive. Nuts, I was hoping for an outright apology. Now, I don't know what to do, Is feeling contrite the equivalent of a half-hearted apology? Rich
It sure seems like everyone has an easy time telling me what I'm doing wrong. It also seems to me, many don't see any culpability in themselves.
What's wrong with this picture?
I'm am now 63 years old and although I put great effort into trying to be fair to people and treat them the way I would like to be treated, there will be times when previous instances crop up to influence what I have to say to someone!
How interesting that this plea to others to attempt civility, would turn into life lessons for me!