NittanyLionI see it as a logical progression. From spaghetti bowls to more realistic representations to (what I think the next phase is) closer to scale representations of specific locations. As this shift takes place, the board starts to tilt towards prototypes more.
Some of the usual suspects finding a way to be offended _at nothing_ here.
I see the original poster never came back to the hornets nest he stirred up ... no surprise. The initial post is a canard. Lots of freelanced layouts are featured every month in the magazines.
layout features in the recent months of MRR ...
May: Gypsy Trolley Line (completely freelance), Emerald Springs Division (freelance locations with santa fe equipment)
April: freelance layout project, Forest Park Southern (freelance locations with C&O equipment), freelance car ferry track plan
March: East Berkshire Branch (freelance locations with Rutland and B&M equipment), Sugar Valley & Sweetwater (completely freelance), Lehigh Valley prototype track plan
So out of 7 or 8 layout articles, only one is prototype.
alco_fan Some of the usual suspects finding a way to be offended _at nothing_ here. I see the original poster never came back to the hornets nest he stirred up ... no surprise. The initial post is a canard. Lots of freelanced layouts are featured every month in the magazines. layout features in the recent months of MRR ... May: Gypsy Trolley Line (completely freelance), Emerald Springs Division (freelance locations with santa fe equipment) April: freelance layout project, Forest Park Southern (freelance locations with C&O equipment), freelance car ferry track plan March: East Berkshire Branch (freelance locations with Rutland and B&M equipment), Sugar Valley & Sweetwater (completely freelance), Lehigh Valley prototype track plan So out of 7 or 8 layout articles, only one is prototype.
I agree with this........however I do see it like this......................
Some at the magazine have their own ....."agenda??".........they are basically going with what they know........and sometimes they have to because of a lack of contributions from subscribers as far as articles ......so........what to do?
Eventually I would like to send in a few articles myself to the magazine ...but.............I need a good camera......not just the point and shoot I have now...........and I need to actually get a few projects done so that I can contribute .
Like the above poster had said .............some seem to gripe just to gripe.
Take the magazine for what it`s worth.............if you don`t like what you see then don`t look at / read it.
As most here know by now I do have my own freelanced road the Birdsboro & Reading (<------shameless plug)..........it`s MY road .....although I do follow some prototype practices I may not follow them all.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
alco_fan Some of the usual suspects finding a way to be offended _at nothing_ here.
Offended???????????????????????????????????
Seemed like a nice friendly conversation to me?
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Offended??????????????????????????????????? Seemed like a nice friendly conversation to me? Sheldon
I agree..I don't see a hornets nest nor anything that would be offensive..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Texas Zepher NittanyLionI see it as a logical progression. From spaghetti bowls to more realistic representations to (what I think the next phase is) closer to scale representations of specific locations. As this shift takes place, the board starts to tilt towards prototypes more.And that can be carried too far too. I know a layout where the person did a 100% accurate representation of a couple of the areas in the Sliver San Juan mountains. The sidings are all the exact length and position, during an operating session the mines get exactly the number of cars the real one did, the passenger trains stop at the station for the prototypical period of time. The fellow spent forever putting all this together. It is so realistic it is almost boring. How many enjoy looking out the car window at miles of unremarkable "normal" scenery. Since the passing siding is about 1/4 mile long at prototypical speed it takes over 5 real minutes to do a simple run around move. I found the whole layout and operating it to be tedious and boring. There is a reason they had to pay people to operate trains like that in real life. In my opinion it would have been better used as a static display in the historical museum for this part of the country. I did however learn a lot of what NOT to do on my layout.
Agreed, it can be taken too far.
And, I would suggest that spaghetti bowl track plans, or the lack thereof, has little to do with prototype vs freelance modeling. I have never built a spaghetti bowl track plan and I have never followed a prototype very closely.
UNLESS - one ASSUMES that the ONLY way to model a real life prototype is to try to replicate some real life place. And once one tries to replicate a real life place, what level of selective compression is "acceptable" and what level is not?
Why can't someone model the B&O or the PRR and simply name their "places" for real places, have track arangments that reflect the "flavor" of those places, and scenery that reflects the region, without trying to follow prototype track diagrams?
That level of "obsession" or "seriousness" would really exclude me from the prototype thing - but a few of my best friends do just that - it works for them.
ATLANTIC CENTRALUNLESS - one ASSUMES that the ONLY way to model a real life prototype is to try to replicate some real life place. And one once tries to replicate a real life place, what level of selective compression is "acceptable" and what level is not?
Interesting question that deserves a article.
To my mind modeling R.J.Corman's Western Ohio lines two things stands out as must haves-the shops and distribution center at Celina and the wye track at St.Marys,Ohio other then that one could use generic Ohio scenery.That would be easily accomplish on a bedroom size layout and still be fully believable.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Offended??????????????????????????????????? Seemed like a nice friendly conversation to me? Sheldon I agree..I don't see a hornets nest nor anything that would be offensive..
Yes, nowhere did I read anything, by anyone, that even hinted that they were "offended?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Offended??????????????????????????????????? Seemed like a nice friendly conversation to me? Sheldon I agree..I don't see a hornets nest nor anything that would be offensive.. Yes, nowhere did I read anything, by anyone, that even hinted that they were "offended?
Even if I wanted to be offended, I'm not sure which way to be offended. This is a pretty civil conversation.
Enjoy
Paul
This hobby of ours is based on reproducing reality on a smaller scale. Even the most casual of model railroaders running the most toy-like trains are still based on the reality of it being a train with flanged wheels on track. As model railroaders get more knowledgable in the hobby, the natural inclination is to get more realistic...to get closer to the real thing. The manufacturers are following that desire by making more realistic models, and the hobby press shows it. Everyone has their own limits and wants, of course. There are the "Gomez Addams"-types that are perfectly happy running their train toys at warp speed; there are the Proto:87 guys who are probably wondering how to make bolt-on fishplates on every rail joint; and everything in between.
My thing is this: I model the New Haven RR. I enjoy it. I enjoy getting into the nuts and bolts of the NH's operations. For example, I have a 1953 NH Passenger Train Consist Book, a 1953 Engine Assignment Book, a 1953 Caboose and Work Equipment Book, a 1953 Freight Symbol Book, and a 1953 Employee Timetable. With these five books, I can accurately model to the best of my ability any passenger or freight train (if I have the equipment). I know which trains ran where and when they did so. I know what engines pulled what cars. I even know which caboose was on each freight. I get extra pleasure from not only knowing these things, but actually going out and doing them in HO scale.
I just had a 5-person operation session on my layout today. Before, I would run several passenger trains made of matching equipment so that they all looked good. It was okay, but kind of uninteresting. This time, I made a new schedule up that called for following the above books as close as possible. It resulted in mismatched trains that looked totally unorganized...but I had a lot more fun setting it up and watching my friends operate them. Just knowing that I was "doing it right" (or at least, more correct) felt better to me...like all my hard work was coming together. Running that observation car in the middle of the train? Prototypical. Running 3 boxcars, 3 RPO's, 2 coaches and 1 baggage car on one train? Prototypical. It sure beats running all the orange and black cars together, or all the green ones together. The NH was known to mix and match with the best of them.
tomikawaTT,Every magazine has one hidden agenda...to make money. Would you want to pay to read about a "...Christmas set train on a loop of Snap Track laid on grass mat on a re-purposed Ping-Pong table."? I know I wouldn't. I want to be inspired. I want to learn new ideas. I want to see and enjoy great modeling. There's not much to learn about rolling out a grass mat on a piece of wood, and there's not much to look at or enjoy, either.
Sheldon,Is it really a magazine "agenda" with DCC, stricter prototype modeling, and linear layout design, or is it just reflecting the current state of the hobby?
You said, "Because the fact is there is only slightly more product in production and actually available at ANY GIVEN MONMENT then there was 30 years ago." I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong. There is far, far more available today than there was in 1983. The availablity what's on the internet alone can argue the point. And new models? Athearn made, what, 4 new loco models in the 1980's? Athearn is announcing 4 new models this year.
You went on to say, "But I just can't help but wonder how many people have become discoraged at the selection of product, again, at any given moment, and have simply given up on the hobby or settled for a lesser version of the hobby." Well, I wonder how many people became discouraged in the 1980's when all they could get were a couple dozen different generic locos in a few most popular paint schemes in one road number only? Back in the day, one could go to the same hobby shop month after month and never see anything new...just new stock of current production replacing what sold.
And not for nothing, but the B&O doesn't seem to be one of the most popular roads, sorry to say. Part of the problem is that it's been 40 years since the Chessie System took over, and it's been replaced in part in the hearts and minds of the locals by the successful CSX. Compare that to New England, where most of the old Class I's have not been replaced by successful Class I's but by regionals and shortlines with questionable success at times. That leads to companies like Rapido making the very New England-y Osgood-Bradley lightweight coach in multiple runs. NH, BAR and B&M fans bought all the models before they left China in the first run because so few of us model the modern day around here. If someone made a B&O coach, would that happen for them? I dunno about that.
Brakie,Actually, modern railroading is boring as heck, when & where there is any of it. The uniformity of the North American loco fleet has never been greater, and US track miles haven't been this low since the 1890's. Sure, where there is a Class I mainline, it tends to be pretty busy...as long as you like a lot of coal trains and container trains. Ho hum.
Texas Zephyr,I know what you mean about realism being "too real". I tell the guys at my club all the time about the fine line between work and fun during operations. One guy wanted to do real, honest to goodness TTO, but we talked him out of it when we pointed out that no one wanted to write Form 19's over the radio. Likewise, some folks want to imagine stopping and pumping up the brakes and walking the application, etc. Which is very real, but very dull.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3Brakie,Actually, modern railroading is boring as heck, when & where there is any of it. The uniformity of the North American loco fleet has never been greater, and US track miles haven't been this low since the 1890's. Sure, where there is a Class I mainline, it tends to be pretty busy...as long as you like a lot of coal trains and container trains. Ho hum.
Hi Paul..I guess you don't railfan much or fail to fully understand today's railroads do the same business as the NH did(except operate money losing commuter trains)..They haul freight and switch industries...Nothing new there.
So,I maintain there's far more to modern railroads then the "ho hum" like you been lead to believe.
I look at equipment availability, as there has always been brass available and I liked kit bashing a generic Roundhouse MDC steamer; or, other manufacturer, into a specific Northern Pacific loco, if I could find one with any semblance to my loco of interest. Now, all steam locos are pretty expensive and cutting up a BLI, Athearn; or Bachmann loco is far less appealing when they cost so much. The other problem I see (and this has happened twice to me in the very recent past) is if I bash a loco and that loco develops problems, there is a very strong likelihood that when I send the loco in for repair, the loco will be exchanged (nobody fixes anything anymore, they just replace) and all the work I did on the kit bash, will be lost!
So, I'm not happy with the high cost and poor performance of the motive power available today, even though it is highly detailed, while my simply designed and built; but, no longer available MDC and other stuff keeps on running like the Everready bunny!
Alco Fan did get a couple things right and one of them is that most of the layouts presented in MR recently have been free lanced; or, proto-freelanced. I think the supposed swing to prototype layouts might be more wishful thinking on the part of those people who think that is the direction things should be headed!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NP2626I think the supposed swing to prototype layouts might be more wishful thinking on the part of those people who think that is the direction things should be headed!
Perhaps..But,shouldn't we look beyond MR and other magazines for the direction the hobby is heading? There are forums and on line sig sites that specializes in prototype modeling.
Now and IMHO say my freelance railroad is the Hooten Hollow & Soggy Creek and all you see is (say) ConRail power then by all rights I modeling CR and not a freelance railroad.
This is what a freelance locomotive should look like:
Not this:
Paul, the product availability dynamic is very complex. In 1970, or 1980, there were way less prototypes to make models of - so the ever expanding list of possible prototypes dilutes the choices for manufacturers and modelers alike. How many of those four prototypes existed in 1980? or 1970 when I was new in the hobby?
As for what is on the Internet, that has no bearing - because in 1980 that product was on the shelves of hobby shops and distributors - distribution has changed a lot, and will continue to change - that does no mean there is more product.
Here is my point - pick a railroad, and an era, make a rolling stock, locomotive and structure list for a medium sized layout. Base that list on products cataloged by manufacturers over the last 15 years. Go on the Internet, to the hobby shop, or on the phone and see how much of your list you can buy - money is no object - I'll bet you will have a hard time getting to 50%.
Do the same thing but pretend you are transported back in time to 1975, so you must use pick a railroad and era of that date or before. Make a similar list from the available products - you would have had easily been able to fill your shopping cart to about 80% just by going to MB Klein, Gilberts in Gettysburg, etc.
It does not matter that "at some point" all this product has been made - what only matters is what I can or cannot buy TODAY to build a layout today. It does not matter what "might" be made next week or next year. It does not matter what has been made in the past unless it is readily available new in the box.
When building a layout back then one could say to one's self - "when I get ready I'm going to get that Mikado kit from Mantua and kit bash it into a DT & I Mike". Today you can't ket that Mantua kit nor can you get a DT & I Mike - from anyone.
Yes, a lot of the product was generic - but you could get it any time, when you needed/wanted it - without "preordering", and without buying it used from some clown on the internet.
In the 1970's and 1980's there was lots of new product - Walthers, Roundhouse, Train Miniature, Athearn had a steady stream of new rolling stock offerings. Yes, locos where limited somewhat, but by the late eighties that changed too.
When I ran a train department we would be frustrated because Walthers only had about 75-80% of what was in the catalog - if they have 50% now that's a lot - and their catalog represents much less of the industry than it did in 1980.
I have bought about 100 locos over the last 15 years - I would bet if I tried to replace them all right now less than 10% are readily available new in the box - If I was new in this hobby, the preorder, limited production thing would frustrate me real fast.
Does product availabliy effect peoples modeling choices? I'm sure it does. I would rather choose from stuff I can actually buy right now rather than stuff I might be able to buy or stuff I should have bought 3 years ago if I had known I was going to want it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL alco_fan Some of the usual suspects finding a way to be offended _at nothing_ here. Offended??????????????????????????????????? Seemed like a nice friendly conversation to me? Sheldon
So far everyone is behaving themselves "alco_fan" ...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I'm going to have to side with the there is more availability group. In 1974 when I first bacme really serious about model railroading I had a choice of 3 cast metal Ulrich hoppers, 2 versions of the B&O offset quad, the Roundhouse triple and the Varney derivative USRA twins. Now I have literally dozens of choces for hoppers from a wide variety of manufacturers. Might I have to root around a bit to get one of each. But the points that no matter how rare they are, they do exist. In 1970 they didn't exist. Yes the hobby shops all had stock, but it was the SAME stock. I had my choice of buying the same Varney twin at 6 different hobby shops. Did any of them stock a Stewart fishbelly hopper? Nope, they hadn't been made. did any of them stock a Bowser GLa? Nope, they hadn't been made. What was available? 4000 copies of the Varney twin.
In the 1970's I started modeling the LV, but I switched to the RDG. Why? Because in the 1970's models of Alco engines that ran worth a darn were very rare. They weren't made (except in brass). So I changed focus to a railroad for which engiens were being made. Now today there are models of GP-18's, RS2's, RS3's, RS11's, C628's, PA's, FA's, all manner of F units. Are some of them rare. Yes. But they exist. They did not exist in 1970. Could I have bought an engine in 1970 at my hobby shop? Sure, every hobby shop had AHM RS2 and GP-18's.
The difference between 30-40 years ago and today is that 30-40 years ago there were 50 models and more hobby shops that had pleanty of them. Today there are 1000 models, but they are spread over more venues.
Ironically the one place that hasn't changed is the era I'm in. The exact same half dozen models for the 1900 era in production today are the same models that were in procution in 1974.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanI'm going to have to side with the there is more availability group. In 1974 when I first bacme really serious about model railroading I had a choice of 3 cast metal Ulrich hoppers, 2 versions of the B&O offset quad, the Roundhouse triple and the Varney derivative USRA twins
dehusmanIn the 1970's I started modeling the LV, but I switched to the RDG. Why? Because in the 1970's models of Alco engines that ran worth a darn were very rare. They weren't made (except in brass).
--------------------
Dave & folks,
1974? Well, I try to make allowances for newbies but weren't there three versions of Athearn twin hopper by then? And didn't the Train Miniature offset and ribbed cars come out before that?
As far as Alcos went, yes there were problems, but Hobbytown had some pretty decent kits available, including the PA, FA, RS3 and an RSC or RSD. They took some work, but boy could they pull!
In all seriousness, there is really a lot of stuff to be had nowadays, at least if you move really fast or don't mind ordering a year of two in advance. There are only a few cars I'd like to aquire, and one of them, Bowser's Pennsy H30 coverd hopper isn't even out yet. Sure like to have one of Atlas's 1932 USRA box cars, the SAL one with the plate ends. I missed pre-ordering (at full list price plus shipping that added about 1/3 to the price) and have never seen one anywhere. Instead of wondering if they'd even reissue the car I said to hell with their limited edition nonsense (something we didn't often have to deal with in the 1960's) and decided to roll my own. I've got a Funaro 1932 car around here to which I/m going to graft TM X29 ends from a parts-only car, use some Micro decals, add some Kadee trucks and couplers and call it a day. Since this is all stuff I have on hand I'll save about $25-30 and a lot of waiting.
When I think about it, all those kitbashing articles really paid off and have given me countless hours of pleasure. Heck, even some of those Athearn ersatz cars have turned out pretty well.
Oh well, enjoy.
Benny
Brakie,Again, where there are Class I rails it tends to be pretty busy, mostly because of the concentration of increasing traffic on fewer and fewer track miles. The problem is that we don't have that here in New England. The nearest "heavy traffic" line is in Albany, NY. Heck, Boston just lost it's last freight yard downtown when CSX closed ex-B&A Beacon Park Yard (three others have already closed). The only one left is Readville Yard, a dozen miles from downtown on the very outskirts of town.
The point is that yes, railroads still do what they have always done in providing transportation. But compared to what used to be, it's pretty boring unless you happen to live on a busy Class I mainline...and even if you do, it's probably going to be a stack train or a coal train. When I was in Rochelle, IL a few years ago, all I was seeing was stacks and coal, with maybe one boxcar train out of the 2 dozen trains I saw. Meanwhile, on the old NH, there was an all-LCL train, an all reefer train, an all TOFC train, an all empties train, etc., every day. Today, on the same NH route, there is not one freight train that runs through from town except for one local freight. Therefore, ho-hum.
NP2626,If you can build MDC kit steam engines, why are you sending back RTR steam engines to have someone else fix it? I would think that someone who can rivet together valve gear can fix any steam loco drive problem up to and including re-gearing and re-motoring.
Sheldon,There were "way less" prototypes to choose from in 1980? Compared to the total number of locos ever made, including the steam era, that would be an incorrect statement. Sure, there have been a couple to several dozen new prototype locos made since 1980, but that isn't much compared to the 150 years of loco prototypes before that. As for the 4 (actually 5, sorry) new Athearn locos of the 1980's, only the prototype GP50 was created after the 1970's (in 1980, to be exact). The others (GP40-2, SD40-2, SD40T-2, GP38-2) date back to the early 1970's (1972, in fact).
The internet has a ton of bearing on availablity, and I'm surprised you don't see it. What you're missing is that direct sales of models from hobbyist to hobbist with eBay, HO Yard Sale, and others. In yon olden times, when a modeler wanted to sell off his unwanted models, he'd have to rent a table at a train show, consign them at a hobby shop, advertize in a magazine or newspaper, or have a yard sale. The possible customer base numbered in the hundreds. Today, they list them online and sell them across the world to hundreds of thousands of potential customers...all without leaving their house. IOW, direct sales from modeler to modeler was rare then, and it's common now. Can find a model in a hobby shop or via mail order? It'll probably pop up on eBay before too long. And that's a game changer.
You know, Sheldon, in 1990-1991, I did exactly what you said to do. I picked a railroad (NH) and an era (Transition to 1968), made a rolling stock, locomotive and structure list for a medium sized layout. And guess what? The stuff I wanted did not exist! I wanted to model Boston to Providence. I needed I-5 4-6-4's (brass only), R-1 4-8-2's (brass only), Y-3 0-8-0's (brass only), PA-1's (Athearn but not in NH or brass), DL-109's (brass only), S-1's (Cary body or brass), HH660's (brass only), FL9's (brass only), NE-5 and NE-6 cabooses (brass only), RDC's (shorty Athearn rubberband power or brass), and NH coaches (brass only). See the pattern? Today, I have all these things in plastic except for the FL9's, and they are in the works. About the only thing I needed that was available at that time was RS-3's, RS-11's, and S-2's.
So as far as I see it, I can have 50% availability (as you said) of what I want at this very second, or 0% availablity of what's out there because what I want did not exist and never had (at least not in brass). I don't know about you, but half a loaf is better than nothing. And better yet, because I bought the models when they came out, I have almost 100% of what I wanted. Your way would leave me with perhaps 25%...if that (with only 5 new models a decade from the biggest company). No thanks.
And if new modelers get frustrated because they can't get everything they ever wanted whenever they get around to paying for it? Too bad. I survived. They can, too. It's completely unrealistic to think that every possible model ever made will be 100% available at all times. Why should some hobby shop or wholesaler stock all that on the odds that someday, 10 to 15 years from now, John Doe from Peoria, IL will buy it? It doesn't make any economic sense. Sorry, but not everything is given to model railroaders on a silver platter...they actually have to work for what they want by going to train shows, calling hobby shops, and hunting on eBay. If they can't do that, then perhaps some other hobby is better for their impatient attitude.
Paul3 Brakie,Again, where there are Class I rails it tends to be pretty busy, mostly because of the concentration of increasing traffic on fewer and fewer track miles. The problem is that we don't have that here in New England. The nearest "heavy traffic" line is in Albany, NY. Heck, Boston just lost it's last freight yard downtown when CSX closed ex-B&A Beacon Park Yard (three others have already closed). The only one left is Readville Yard, a dozen miles from downtown on the very outskirts of town. The point is that yes, railroads still do what they have always done in providing transportation. But compared to what used to be, it's pretty boring unless you happen to live on a busy Class I mainline...and even if you do, it's probably going to be a stack train or a coal train. When I was in Rochelle, IL a few years ago, all I was seeing was stacks and coal, with maybe one boxcar train out of the 2 dozen trains I saw. Meanwhile, on the old NH, there was an all-LCL train, an all reefer train, an all TOFC train, an all empties train, etc., every day. Today, on the same NH route, there is not one freight train that runs through from town except for one local freight. Therefore, ho-hum.
Paul,You can't judge todays railroads by a railfan location or a downsized NH line.
Come to Bucyrus or Fostoria and you will see what todays railroading is all about..NS enlarged their Bellevue yard,you want to see a reefer train? Hang aroung Fostoria and you will see one wanna see more freight trains then stack trains? Go to Berea,Fostoria or Bellevue..
There is no "oh hum" to todays railroading-unless one closes his eyes and mind or never railfans.
Paul,
I only have two points of response - I don't buy "used" model trains from strangers, and I buy very, very little "pre owned", even if I know where it came from. So I don't count the "secondary" modeler to modeler market in such discussions.
And, true, not everything is given to model railroaders on a silver platter - some of us actually build what we want rather than wait for manufacturers to make it.
b60bpIn all seriousness, there is really a lot of stuff to be had nowadays, at least if you move really fast or don't mind ordering a year of two in advance.
Paul3 NP2626,If you can build MDC kit steam engines, why are you sending back RTR steam engines to have someone else fix it? I would think that someone who can rivet together valve gear can fix any steam loco drive problem up to and including re-gearing and re-motoring. Paul A. Cutler III
NP2626,If you can build MDC kit steam engines, why are you sending back RTR steam engines to have someone else fix it? I would think that someone who can rivet together valve gear can fix any steam loco drive problem up to and including re-gearing and re-motoring. Paul A. Cutler III
Because there was no way to repair them.
NP2626 Paul3 NP2626,If you can build MDC kit steam engines, why are you sending back RTR steam engines to have someone else fix it? I would think that someone who can rivet together valve gear can fix any steam loco drive problem up to and including re-gearing and re-motoring. Paul A. Cutler III Because there was no way to repair them.
The problem is parts, one might be a very skilled and experienced kit builder, but not be a machinist. Bachmann, BLI, Athearn, Walthers/Proto and rest have only limited parts supplies for these import locos.
In 1970 I repaired all manner of model trains and got paid to do it - I was 14 years old. I still work on a lot of locos, and choose to fix many of these RTR locos when need be. But again, parts are a challenge.
I surely understand NP's position of not wanting to fix some RTR loco he paid good money for.
I bought two BLI heavy Mikes - like NP's past problems, they both developed problems after I kit bashed them. BLI could not provide the correct parts do to changes in vendors - I bought parts that were close and reworked them myself. Both locos had to be "rebuilt" from the ground up to fix drivers that slipped out of quarter and other drive line issues. I decided to do it - but I surely understand why others would not.
And I have had to fix way less Bachmann locos than BLI locos, yet I have 6 times as many Bachmann locos.
Both of them, one a Bachmann two truck climax and the other the first production run of BLI's NYC J1e Hudson, had problems stemming from issues that led to a redesign of the drive systems and in the climax's case a change to a completely different locomotive.
I am unwilling to fix a poor design, which is what was going on, here. I also felt that at least with the BLI Hudson, you have to be so careful picking it up, with all the extremely fragile details glued onto the shell, that fixing when BLI had decided they would exchange my loco for the latest production run, it would have been pretty stupid not take advantage of this, even though I lost all the work I put into it, bashing it into something else.
Brakie,In the past 7 years, I've been to Rochelle, IL. I've been to Blue Island and Dolton, IL. I've been to Horseshoe Curve (twice). I've stayed overnight at Bridgeview, Cresson, and Galitzin, PA. I think I've gone to some serious railfan locations. Of course, I had to travel hundreds of miles to find any...which was my point.
Look at a tonnage map of the US, and New England may as well not even exist. And it's not like no one lives here. There's 14.5 million people in New England. That would make us the 5th most populous state. All these people don't see the kind of tonnage that rolls through Ohio every day. It just doesn't exist over here. So there's plenty of "ho hum" modern railroading for a significant portion of the population in this country. If you came East, Brakie, you'd be bored to tears. Around here, you can wait all day to see 1 (yes, one!) freight train. Excited yet? Me neither. Passenger trains? We got lots. Freight...not so much.
Sheldon,Judging by the traffic at eBay and at train shows, I'd say you are in a tiny minority in not ever buying used equipment from strangers. I, myself, have a pretty good NH brass collection (2 dozen pieces), all but two of which were purchased 2nd hand. Some of them I bought a good 30 years after they had been made, going through who knows how many modelers before I got my hands on them. Sure, most of my plastic was purchased "new in box", but when I see a NH P2K GP9 in good shape at a train show for $25, I'm gonna buy it. Same goes for my NH P2K PA-1 for $40 with DCC installed. I don't turn up my nose at them because they are used. It's not like they are a pair of dirty old shoes.
So if you think that building your own is the way to go when the manufacturers don't make what you want, then why the big rant against the amoutn of items that are out of stock? Aren't these mutually exclusive ideas?
And what parts needed to be replaced? Drivers that slipped on the axles? What about just using Loctite?
NP2626,IIRC, the problem with the first run Hudsons was with the pick up wipers. They were too stiff and did not make good contact. And yes, oddly enough, one has to be extremely carefull when picking up steam engines that have a ton of detail parts of them. If one wants bullet-proof detailed models, buy brass.
Trend towards prototype modeling?? Maybe…Seems to me that you might end up closer to this area the farther you advance your skills in the hobby. If the goal is to be realistic, you naturally start gravitating to what the prototype did to increase realism. Not necessarily in terms of slavishly following every operating practice and aspect of a specific road, but you get there by trying to model things accurately. How tall is a telephone pole? What color is the ballast? The list is endless. As you do this, it becomes a slippery slope and soon you buy a scale ruler and are scratch building stuff, rooting about for the right caboose, buying brass locos of specific prototypes…etc
I am a proto-freelancer. I like the idea of combining scenes and equipment together that look like they are real but never occurred in nature. I have combined several prototypes that ran in the same location and era to get the feel I want. This limits me to a certain subset of equipment and scenes but there is more freedom than strict prototype modeling. I am modeling mostly prototype scenes but they are a mash-up of areas from different railroads.
As for not buying used equipment, I would say that this will limit you to what is still around as NOS or in current production. If I followed that idea, I would have very few locos and almost no cabooses. If you are talking steam, most of the locomotives and cabooses that are accurate for a particular road are only available in brass. Many of them are small, one time only runs that sold out many years ago. This means you are in the used market….
One other comment: There are a lot of great modelers in the prototype area of the hobby. Seeing their work is always inspiring and I think magazines are following the talent. I see an equal amount of great freelance modeling/articles so I am not sure there is a trend one way or the other. I would say the trend is towards more realistic models in general, regardless of the overall vision of the modeler.
Your mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I do buy some New Old Stock kind of stuff, kits never built, Proto locos obviously never out of the box with the shells still separate from the drives, Bachmann locos with all packing still in place or the shrink wrap still on the box.
But very, very, very, very rarely do I buy truly "used" equipment.
I don't have enough brass to say I buy brass - just one old PFM/United USRA 4-6-2, now fitted with a Bachmann tender - bought that from a friend. Never had much interest in brass for the some of the same resons I don't like the preorder system now.
And one Orient Limited Powerhouse USRA Pacific, bought NOS, also now with a Bachmann tender.
On a few of those BLI drivers, the cheap material in the centers disintegrated upon dis-assembly. So I had to buy the newer version of the driver, and take them apart and turn the bearings around - one of the design changes of the new vendor.
Back in the day all those "boring" generic, always on the shelf products that you like to disparage, many of those items made for great kit bashing starting points. And you could count on being able to get them. Today if they are still available, they are RTR in only a few roadnames and nearly impossible to dis-assemble - example the full range of MDC old time passenger cars.
Paul, I build a lot of stuff, I buy a lot of RTR, a great deal of which gets some sort of kit bashing, upgrading or modifying - but I'm not a collector of high end RTR model trains - regardless of the materials used to construct them.
And batch production or not, I think manufacturers should make stuff then sell it, not the other way around.
Truth is model trains have ALWAYS been produced in small limited production "rotation" batches. Truth also is that today's "batches" are generally larger than when those models were made here in the USA. Truth is the preorder thing is just a gimmick to get faster turnover, while providing a lower level of customer service. Truth is when people paid retail prices manufacturers, distributors and retailers were happy to "invest" in inventory. Truth is the elimination of the distributor, heavy discounting and overseas production has created the need for quicker turnover of more product. But there is no clear picture as to if this makes the hobby better or worse for the average modeler - it is just different
In the past, Athearn made a "batch" of F7's and actually hoped they stayed on the shelves of distributors and retailers until they got back around to making more. Running out would mean loosing potential sales. I often wonder how many sales have been "lost" in the current market to simply not having product on the shelf to sell?
But what would I know about it? I just worked in hobby shops starting at age 13, managed a train department in one, have run/owned other retail businesses, and have been self employed most of my life, I'm now 56 - you're right I surely can't know anything about business.
Paul3 NP2626,IIRC, the problem with the first run Hudsons was with the pick up wipers. They were too stiff and did not make good contact. And yes, oddly enough, one has to be extremely carefull when picking up steam engines that have a ton of detail parts of them. If one wants bullet-proof detailed models, buy brass. Paul A. Cutler III
Nope, the problem as I understand it, from Broadway Limited Inc., was that the motor drive was connected to driver set # 3(rear). The newer production runs have the motor drive connected to driver set # 2 (middle). I saw on several occasions where the rear drivers would turn past being in quarter with the front two sets and lock the whole thing up! Also, there's some type of problem with the spring pressure used to equalize the drivers and effect good footing on the rails which allowed the front drivers to lift over the rails, causing the locomotive to derail.
Nothing was ever said about problems with electrical wipers and I never saw anything that would lead me to believe there was a problem with electrical pick-up.
I currently model the prototype, but I'd like to try something more along the lines of proto freelance..i.e. modelling a railroad that perhaps existed once and extending it in time to the present day by rewriting history. For example, building a present day version of the Lehigh Valley would be fun.
Ulrich I currently model the prototype, but I'd like to try something more along the lines of proto freelance..i.e. modelling a railroad that perhaps existed once and extending it in time to the present day by rewriting history. For example, building a present day version of the Lehigh Valley would be fun.