Folks & gentry,
I'm not sure if it's my imagination or not, but it seems current magazine coverage is trending toward proto-based, rather than freelanced, layouts. In fact the now departed RMJ only featured proto based layouts, but that might not mean a whole lot.
I've been in this hobby so long that I recall when very few modelers followed actual railroads, which may have been largely influenced by equipment availability. But in the 1950's-1960's nearly all the big nanes in the hobby had freelanced lines. A few years back I compiled a list of my favorite model railroads and about 15 out of 20 were freelanced. So was my own pike. But more recently I compiled an updated list and about 2/3 were prototype based, and I'm currenly modeling my two favorite lines, B&O and Pennsy.
Something in the hobby has been gradually moving my interests over, almost without my realizing it. I think a lot of the kitbashing articles that used to appear in RMJ, RMC, and MRING may have affected my mind.
Oh well, it's neither a good thing or a bad one, just a fun one. I can enjoy either kind of modeling, or combine them for that matter. Maybe it's not even a trend to anyone but me, but you just don't see the custom paint and lettering schemes that you used to.
Regards,
Benny Peters
I think the big reason for the proliferation of prototype based layouts is that is easier than it used to be. Product availability in the good old days of the hobby was such that it was difficult to model most prototype equipment and structures without extensive kitbashing and scratchbuilding. Not everyone has the time or desire for that. Many modelers who would have preferred to do stricter prototype modeling compromised on freelancing so they could make use of available products, and have changed their focus in the years since.
Something in the hobby has been gradually moving my interests over, almost without my realizing it.
Maybe you're just taking advantage of the nicer models you can get these days, combined with all that knowledge you've accumulated over time. The transition is sufficiently natural you may not think about it.
Rob Spangler
perhaps because if you model modern day railroads you only have to choose from about half a dozen major outfits. ???????
charlie
charlie9 perhaps because if you model modern day railroads you only have to choose from about half a dozen major outfits. ??????? charlie
is that necessary?
anywho, I haven't gotten to purchasing my Loco's that I plan on making for my freelanced roadname. that and I don't have a paint scheme yet.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
b60bp I'm not sure if it's my imagination or not, but it seems current magazine coverage is trending toward proto-based, rather than freelanced, layouts. In fact the now departed RMJ only featured proto based layouts, but that might not mean a whole lot.
I think that trend started about 20 years ago.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
This will probably sound terminally cynical, but here goes.
Editorial staffs, as individuals and collectively, have agendas that don't get posted on the magazine masthead. Content can be selected to support those agendas and downplay anything that doesn't.
Under Paul Larson, Model Railroader was blatantly Wisconsin. Construction articles featured odd little structures found on obscure Wisconsin branch lines and the oddball cars that served them. Featured layouts either had a 'maritime - Wisconsin' theme or pretended to be bucoloc country short lines. Larson's own freelance layout, the Mineral Point and Northern, was unabashedly based on a real branch that terminated at Mineral Point, WI.
Today's MR favors prototypes from a little farther afield - but still prototypes. Part of the reason is that advertisers are selling models based on, and detailed for, specific prototypes. The rather generic die-cast metal steamers of yesteryear have given way to specifically detailed models of XY&Z Number 97 as of July, 1953 - which is fine if you model the XY&Z, but not very helpful if you really crave AB&C 212 as of February, 1948. And if you just want, a steam locomotive, lots of luck finding Number 97 undecorated.
Another thing is that it's easier to judge the, 'Worthiness,' of a layout based on, and operated like, a recognizable prototype. That takes those feature articles to the top of the slush pile. You'll never see the far more common Christmas set train on a loop of Snap Track laid on grass mat on a re-purposed Ping-Pong table. If I ever see one of those in MR, I'll know it's the April edition.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - unlikely to make MR, ever)
I'm with Chuck, the magazines have their own agendas, right now it is DCC, stricter prototype modeling, linear layout design, etc.
Personally I've never been a "follower" and as per a previous thread, I think that, not just my minimal social interaction, is what makes me a true lone wolf.
I do both, freelance and prototype modeling. I don't try to recreate actual places, but other than that I like my B&O, C&O and WM modeling to be reasonably accurate. Those three roads interchange with my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
But my modeling choices have never been driven by what others are doing in mass. Sure I have learned from others, embraced specific ideas (some popular some not) learned from others and I enjoy seeing what others are doing.
But my layout and modeling goals have remained basically unchanged for several decades now with only the slightest minor revisions to layout concept and methods.
Which as Chuck points out, may or may not be judged as "worthy". But my self esteem is not invested in the opinion of others regarding my modeling.
After 40 plus years at this, I know how to do it and what I like.
Sheldon
It may have something to do with the reduced availability of kits along with the high quality of ready-to-run equipment. To me, it seems a shame to strip and repaint a nicely-decorated locomotive or boxcar. With few "undecorated" options being produced, and the extra steps involved in repainting, I'm not surprised that many of us are happy to model a prototype line to give us more time for scenery or operations.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley It may have something to do with the reduced availability of kits along with the high quality of ready-to-run equipment. To me, it seems a shame to strip and repaint a nicely-decorated locomotive or boxcar. With few "undecorated" options being produced, and the extra steps involved in repainting, I'm not surprised that many of us are happy to model a prototype line to give us more time for scenery or operations.
While it is true that some of the current RTR offerings are not offered undecorated, I still find that there are plenty of undecorated models out there. Only on the rarest occasion have I ever stripped a decorated model to repaint it ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and I have hundreds of pieces of ATLANTIC CENTRAL motive power and rolling stock.
Amoung my purchaces of "newer production" unlettered stuff -
Fox Valley unlettered B&O wagontop box cars
Athearn 50' ATSF ice reefers
Athearn covered hoppers
Atlas eastern style caboose
Athearn unlettered RS-3's
Roundhouse "Harriman" style passenger cars
ConCor 72' passenger cars (a whole train worth, just purchased a few months ago)
Countless Bachmann Spectrum steam locos, doodlebugs and GE switchers
Even a few BLI steam locos and a set of PCM EMD F3's
Intermountain FP7's and matching F7B's
over 60 Proto2000 diesels
Mini Metals 35' vans for piggybacks
and on order - Spring Mills Depot unlettered B&O bay window caboose "kits"
And that is just what I can think of right now. there are still plenty of undecorated or unlettered models out there, and many "lettered" models can be repainted or relettered without complete stripping.
I just bought a BLI heavy Pacific in ERIE, I don't model the ERIE. But it will get a new tender from Bachmann, renumbered, etc, all without stripping or a complete repaint.
I have found that using Scalecoat paints it is possible to paint over many simple paint schemes without stripping with no bad effects or shadow lines.
Still not "driven" by what others do -
Disclaimer - having been at this for 40 years, my idea of "newer production" is the last 10-15 years. Train shows and obscure hobby shops are still full of what ever you need - you just have to look.
Actually Charlie today's railroads is more interesting then you may think and requires a lot more research if one models instead of collecting (say) NS locomotives.
You have ex Southern,ex N&W,ex IT,ex CR locomotives which varies in road specific details.
All you need for(say) PRR is grimy black engines with a puke green tint and don't forget the oil and greese stains on the walkways along the long hood.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
There are still a lot of modelers who "build what they like", but you are right - they don't appear as often in the major magazines. The editors do have a "slant" to what they want to see in their magazines, somewhat based on preferences, somewhat to support the advertisers and somewhat for sales appeal. MR has pushed advances in electronics and controls since Lynn Wescott's days, sometimes subtle, sometime quite overt. I think the magazine wants to be a trend setter in the hobby and right now the trends are DCC and closer-to-prototype models. It's not just the magazines though, the customers must have a "push" for prototype models and info otherwise the manufacturers wouldn't be selling their products. For a manufacturer it had t0 be easier in "the old days". Irv Athearn marketed the same generic 40' boxcar for fifty years in different paint schemes - no new tooling required. Personally I like the current trends but there will still be room for creativity and imagination.
There is still room
Another reason why there is more prototype based modeling going on is that there is so much more prototype information available. Things like the Morning Sun color books that focus on a given road's freight and passenger cars were unthinkable years ago. The internet has also made available a wealth of material, including wonderful photo archives. It is the rare rail-served city or town that does not have some sort of photo coverage these days. The research necessary to do a prototype based layout has become not just possible but ever more enjoyable.
The reasons for the Wisconsin bias in MR back in the day is that Paul Larson was an avid scratchbuilder, probably the best craftsman ever to be editor of MR, and as I understand it nearly every weekend he was driving around Wisconsin looking for projects. By the way there were also plenty of Wisconsin based articles and photos in Railroad Model Craftsman when Russ Porter, and then Paul Larson, wrote for RMC. Gordon Odegaard and Jim Hediger continued the Wisconsin link with their photos and projects for MR
The early days of Trains magazine had the same emphasis because Al Kalmbach and Linn Westcott were taking many of the photos for the articles.
And don't look now but an awful lot of the Walthers structures are things found in Wisconsin because the Walthers product development guys also go for weekend jaunts.
With Kalmbach and Walthers both being Wisconsin based, and with the NMRA being formed in Milwaukee, the Wisconsin element should not be surprising at all.
Dave Nelson
We modelers have choices to make. I started out freelanced and changed to prototype due to my interest in the history of my local lines here in Minnesota. Specifically, I am interested in the Northern Pacific and am a member of the Northern Pacific Railroad Historical Association. Having a history to research has added a layer of interest for me that would not be there, had I chosen to continue to freelance.
There are locomotives available for the N.P. However, I find them to be more expensive than I am willing to pay, so I am constantly on the lookout for very good deals, rare!
I also understand the many good reasons for freelancing and think these reasons are as valid today, as they ever where! You can buy any piece of equipment you want, decorate it for your freelanced railroad and have exactly what you want. I think that is fun and pretty cool!
In the end, I don't care one way or the other the direction this hobby might be taking, as I'm in this for my own pleasure and don't "Give a rat's patoot" what others think, say; or, do! I also don't care if the hobby press has a lean to one side; or, the other. If I can find a use for information the magazines have printed, I will use it!
I like to build models and would prefer to build my locomotives from kits, if they were still available. I don't buy RTR freight; or, passenger cars, as I simply want the pleasure of building them myself. My one true objection to any direction being taken by the hobby is a move away from "Building Models"!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I agree that there has been a push in the last 20 years or so towards more prototype layouts. In addition to some other ideas mentioned above, I think the increase in batch production of locomotives has been part of this. Manufacturer's like Bachmann produce a wider array, but in batches. On the rolling stock side, the advent of resin kits has allowed for small runs of specific prototypes.
But it's not just the layout, it's also operations. There is a real push to include all the jobs and paperwork to operate just like the prototype.
I also think that the rise of HiRail modeling as covered in Classic Toy Trains has been a factor. A lot of those guys are having fun running whatever appeals to them. This takes them out of the "serious" scale modelers arena.
Personally, I follow a prototype - the Ma&Pa, but I also include fantasy cars like a boxcar decorated for the Gorre & Daphetid railroad of John Allen. I am fortunate that S scale has kits for 3 Ma&Pa steam locomotives plus a flatcar and I was able to get undecorated models of the line's first 4 diesels (not currently in production). But anymore will have to be "close" enough which in my case means matching the wheel arrangement. One of the "benefits" of the Ma&Pa is that most of the freight cars on the line are foreign, so I can use whatever is available and appropriate to the early 50's. But then I also include billboard reefers that were outlawed in the '30s.
I guess you could call me a casual prototype modeler - I follow the prototype, but deviate wherever it appeals to me to do so.
Enjoy
Paul
This is becoming the familiar proto vs. free lance thread. There is definitely a proto mindset out there (witness a specific forum here for it, yet no forum for free-lancing.) While a rabid free-lancer, I live and let live on all issues related to another guy's layout. It is his sweat and treasure poured into his little kingdom...Let 'em have fun.
I'm 100% narrow gauge (HOn3). I longed for a narrow gauge discussion group and found one on Yahoo, but on landing there I noted 25 response threads on decaling a 3000 series D&RGW box car in which minute detail was the order of the day. Too much nit pick and hyper ventilating over precision fer' me! Prototype max'd out on steroids. Some serious folks there. I'm glad they are havin' fun though, picking at points until there is no meat left on the bone.
For my part, free lancers are a lot looser crowd and accept model rails of different and varied standards better than the strict proto guys. Still, proto is fine if that's your interest.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
IRONROOSTERBut it's not just the layout, it's also operations. There is a real push to include all the jobs and paperwork to operate just like the prototype.
Funny that..As a brakeman all the paper work I needed was a switch list..The conductor did the other required paper work.
So,I don't really understand what all the fuss is about since we cover the operating trades engineer,conductor/brakeman-even our "yardmaster" is in the operation trade(yard engineer/conductor) unless we want him/her to sit behind a desk handing paper work and supervising the yard crew..
My Golden State Railroad is a "Proto/Fereelance" railroad. The area that I model is northern California into southeren Oregon. An area of the country that I love having lived there for ten years when I workd fo ther Department Of Defense . I use real towns names with a history based on the purchase of some of Southern Pacific and Western Pacifics abandoned lines along with the acquistion of some small railroads. This gives me the best of both worlds.
wp8thsubI think the big reason for the proliferation of prototype based layouts is that is easier than it used to be.
Texas ZepherWith the advent of the internet one doesn't need thousands of dollars of books in the library to learn about the prototype. 10 minutes of research and I can find the proper consist for a specific time of some named train I had never even heard about a week ago. That is as opposed to spending a couple weeks going to 2 - 3 different libraries trying to find a single book on the railroad in question.
Yes. The net has made both research and purchasing much easier and wide-ranging than before. Gone are the days of simply running with whatever the LHS happened to have on the shelf.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Rastafarr Yes. The net has made both research and purchasing much easier and wide-ranging than before. Gone are the days of simply running with whatever the LHS happened to have on the shelf. Stu
Absolutely! We can pick and choose the cars we need to fill our freight car needs and find the locomotives we need for our roster.
One of the best research tools is Bing or Google maps which releases tons of modeling ideas for industries and track.
Technology has helped out a lot.
First, as noted, the internet has made researching the prototype massively easier. Before the internet, modelers were limited to whatever was published in the hobby magazines or books in the local library. If you were interested in some obscure shortline, your odds of finding information about it were low. Good books are still invaluable resources, but with the internet you can find massive amounts of resources in minutes without leaving the house. Photo sites are especially great, because the internet is flooded with more photos than could ever be published in a book.
Speaking of photos, modern digital cameras make it easier to take and share a lot more photos when you don't have to worry about the expense of slide film.
The internet also makes it easier to find those cool books that aren't in the local public library. :-)
New technology has also changed how layouts are designed compared to 50 years ago. Better and more widely available walk-around throttle systems means layouts no longer need to be operated from fixed positions.
Also, years ago I think there was more articles on scratchbuilding rolling stock in various media, and every magazine issue had at least one set of scale drawings of something (I haven't really read an MR in a little while, do they even still regularly publish drawings??), and actually some of the famous free-lance railroads like Allen McLelland's V&O were pioneers on things like command control, staging and designing for realistic operations. And John Armstrong's seminal "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" was first published in 1963. (After all, operational concepts to a totally fictional railway or one based on a real line.)
So, I'm not sure that a trend to realism or being "prototype-based" is actually necessarily new; just that it's become easier to accomplish over the last 20 years.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
I see it as a logical progression. From spaghetti bowls to more realistic representations to (what I think the next phase is) closer to scale representations of specific locations. As this shift takes place, the board starts to tilt towards prototypes more.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But my modeling choices have never been driven by what others are doing in mass. Sure I have learned from others, embraced specific ideas (some popular some not) learned from others and I enjoy seeing what others are doing. But my self esteem is not invested in the opinion of others regarding my modeling. After 40 plus years at this, I know how to do it and what I like. Sheldon
But my self esteem is not invested in the opinion of others regarding my modeling.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I'm just trying to add as much detail as I can. I have a preference for building over operations so detail is a way to up my game. I also have a desire to get away from "Toy" and tilt toward "Hobby"
UPinCT I'm just trying to add as much detail as I can. I have a preference for building over operations so detail is a way to up my game. I also have a desire to get away from "Toy" and tilt toward "Hobby"
While I enjoy the building aspect the best and have found that operation, by myself really doesn't get my juices flowing, I think that HO has always been about the "Hobby of model railroading" as opposed to running "Toy Trains". I also think that a lot of the detail that I enjoyed adding to my cars and locomotives only real benefit is: That I enjoyed adding it, as it isn't easily seen while the train is in motion!
I think that some people portray a "chauvinism" about how they think things are done today, as compared to 20,30,40,50 and 60 years ago! If it wasn't for the people who were in this hobby and pushed the boundary of what was possible back then, we wouldn't be where we're at today! I find this disrespect for the past to be akin to Talking trash about farmers, with your mouth full of food!
Times change, what was important, becomes not so much so. The focus may change from one thing to another. Doesn't mean its better; or, modelers of today, are better than they were!
NP2626Times change, what was important, becomes not so much so. The focus may change from one thing to another. Doesn't mean its better; or, modelers of today, are better than they were!
Absolutely..My Dad's generation of model railroaders was kit and scratch builders and the majority enter the brass steam engine era gladly even though the choices was limited,then came the shake the box generic car kit era and generic early RTR cars and locomotives and each decade saw improvements and today we have museum quality models readily available.
At our train show yesterday I seen a lot of young 20 and 30 year old modelers carrying Geneses and Atlas Master and Atlas Gold locomotives-the end of the boxes was sticking out of their thin paper bags and one couldn't help but notice..
Maybe the younger modelers(the next generation) are turning from building kits to building high quality layouts for operation..I don't know.
BRAKIEMaybe the younger modelers(the next generation) are turning from building kits to building high quality layouts for operation.
Yes, there's a lot of this. Since the availability of high-quality detailed models means there's less need for kitbashing and detailing, there's more time to devote to other modeling projects.
If you so choose, you can get a good deal of prototype accuracy from today's RTR equipment. Many a modeler who used to freelance did so because the investment in time to create accurate models was simply too much to do that and make progress on the layout too. I used to spend dozens of hours on certain individual models of cars and locos to achieve a base level of accuracy, but no longer do much of that as I don't have to. Investing the time saved into the rest of the layout helps with scratchbuilding structures and other projects.
Well here is the fly in the ointment that keeps me primarily a freelancer.
We have all this great, high detail, RTR, "correct" equipment - or do we?
Well we do if you have deep pockets and lots of patience - to wait for pre orders, hunt at train shows, surf Ebay - to find all of those limited production gems that fit your prototype.
Because the fact is there is only slightly more product in production and actually available at ANY GIVEN MONMENT then there was 30 years ago.
So if you have a long range plan, and the money to jump on stuff at a moments notice, it is a great time in the hobby.
But I just can't help but wonder how many people have become discoraged at the selection of product, again, at any given moment, and have simply given up on the hobby or settled for a lesser version of the hobby.
I have been at this a long while, about 43 years now. A good portion of that time I have had the same layout goals and plans. And while I have taken full advantage of the idea that high quality RTR gives me more time for other aspects of the hobby and building the layout, there is still not a suitable selection of prototype equipment to prompt me to go the full on prototype route.
Prime example - despite the large number of proto specific passenger cars out there, there are only a hand full of cars correct for the B&O and not one of their flagship trains has been done except in brass.
BLI talked for years about doing B&O Pacific's, in the end they just slapped B&O on generic USRA locos and without even the simplest B&O classic details as head light position. And they offered two road numbers on their heavy version - painted in the B&O green "President" scheme - but put the same presidents name on both locos - come on now.
And the B&O is/was not some little back woods line, it was one of America's biggest and most known Class I railroads - and our first railroad.
All this high quality product has made me a more prolific and detailed "protolancer", but has not even come close to making me a strict prototype modeler.
I must have been lucky in that I decided to model prototypically what was in my local area in the 1975 to 85 time period. And that was the last part of Penn Central and the beginning of Conrail. Coal was king!
Now everyone knows that Conrail has just about one of everything and if they didn't then they got it from all of the merged railroads that came to form Conrail!
So why fight this lack of road names and model the Conrail change over era!
I can run Erie Erie/Lackawanna, PC, PRR, CNJ, Reading and so on! So just about anything the MFG make in eastern roads I can purchase and run on my layout.
It sure makes building a large roster of engines(over 65 on the layout annd counting) and well over 1100 cars from all over as the part of western PA I do was a bridge line between the Pittsburgh/Buffalo Main and the Harrisburg/Buffalo main.
And with the Lowgrade Line being up in the sticks - Contrail push all of the old stuff up here to run and kept the new Engines down in Pittsburgh or Harrisburg to run the mainline between NYC and Chicago.
So I have PC paint outs and EL and Reading and so on!
I can't purchase them fast enough as I have so many to choose from. So have fun trying to find the lesser railroads or spend the rest of your life redetailing your equipment to match some obscure railroad - I on the other had will just keep buying anything the MFG make for the eastern roads and run it on my layout knowing full well it DID run through here once or twice in its lifetime!
Having more than one person should be allowed! ;-)
BOB H - Clarion, PA
ATLANTIC CENTRALWell here is the fly in the ointment that keeps me primarily a freelancer.
I wanted to model the GN until I learned of all their unique Belpair fireboxed locomotives that will probably only ever be available in brass and out of my price category. sigh.