A detailed operating procedure should in fact feel like work, hard work, paper work, red tape, because we're modeling and romanticizing(sp?) a blue collar industry. Of course it feels like work. Railroading IS work.
Operating session is a group live action role-playing for model railroaders.
One personality disorder can spoil a group's live action role-playing event. Don't label it any other way.. it's roleplaying.
Ops sessions at the local club don't interest me because of the personality(or lack thereof) of the people who've appointed themselves lords over all prototypical operating methods.
richhotrain The more that I follow this thread, and the more that I think about operations, the more that I conclude that there is a certain incompatibility between operations and lone wolf model railroading. <snip> On a model railroad, a lone wolf cannot possibly perform all of those duties, at least not simultaneously, so there is a lot of starting and stopping. No wonder it seems like work.
The more that I follow this thread, and the more that I think about operations, the more that I conclude that there is a certain incompatibility between operations and lone wolf model railroading.
<snip>
On a model railroad, a lone wolf cannot possibly perform all of those duties, at least not simultaneously, so there is a lot of starting and stopping. No wonder it seems like work.
On many model railroad there are jobs that operate on branches or may spend a lot of time working by themselves. They would be indistinguishable from a "lone wolf" operation. There are thousands of branch lines where one train operates on the branch. They are essentially lone wolf operations. There is absolutely no impediment to a lone wolf operating anything up to a prototypical operation. The only place a lone wolf has problems is with train meets and interactions with other trains. But there are lots of places where trains operate by themselves and never make train meets or interact with other trains. That is a choice of what operation you are trying to model. If you chose and operation that requires many operators and are lone wolf, then yes the operation will fail because you didn't (to quote the Indiana Jones franchise) "choose wisely".
There are a lot of different ways to operate. There are a lot of different methods and degrees of operation. If it seems like a lot of work, do something else. There are lots of options. I tried to ask questions about what was being done, but was blown off. Regardless, just because one method didn't work for a person there are lots of other options out there. Computer lists, tag on car, "wheel reports", etc. If you don't like one method try another. Many options for operation besides car cards.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
NP2626 Actually, as Rich has stated, I did not start this thread to be about operation! From the very first post, this thread described that I had found operations (so far) to be rather boring. There is no IRONY here. This is a great demonstration in people either not comprehending what has been said; or, twisting what's been said, to suit there own agendas.
Actually, as Rich has stated, I did not start this thread to be about operation! From the very first post, this thread described that I had found operations (so far) to be rather boring. There is no IRONY here.
This is a great demonstration in people either not comprehending what has been said; or, twisting what's been said, to suit there own agendas.
On my previous layout I operated as a lone wolf, the switching was simple. on my next layout, which will be bigger and more complex I will probably still be operating alone. I'm used to doing a lot of stuff (including MRRing) alone, usually works pretty well... sometimes.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
dehusman richhotrain On a model railroad, a lone wolf cannot possibly perform all of those duties, at least not simultaneously, so there is a lot of starting and stopping. No wonder it seems like work. On many model railroad there are jobs that operate on branches or may spend a lot of time working by themselves. They would be indistinguishable from a "lone wolf" operation.
richhotrain On a model railroad, a lone wolf cannot possibly perform all of those duties, at least not simultaneously, so there is a lot of starting and stopping. No wonder it seems like work.
On many model railroad there are jobs that operate on branches or may spend a lot of time working by themselves. They would be indistinguishable from a "lone wolf" operation.
That may be true that there are jobs that operate on branches where individual railroaders may spend a lot of time working by themselves. But, that is still very distinguishable from a lone wolf operator on a model railroad.
My point is that a real railroad is supported by the interaction of thousands of employees at all levels who coordinate and cooperate to make the railroad operate smoothly.
A lone wolf running a model railroad has the sole responsibility for each and every aspect of making that layout operate smoothly.
I am not saying that a lone wolf cannot conduct operations on a model railroad. I am just agreeing with the OP that, for some lone wolf model railroaders, operations may not hold their interest.
Rich
Alton Junction
dehusman richhotrain The more that I follow this thread, and the more that I think about operations, the more that I conclude that there is a certain incompatibility between operations and lone wolf model railroading. <snip> On a model railroad, a lone wolf cannot possibly perform all of those duties, at least not simultaneously, so there is a lot of starting and stopping. No wonder it seems like work. On many model railroad there are jobs that operate on branches or may spend a lot of time working by themselves. They would be indistinguishable from a "lone wolf" operation. There are thousands of branch lines where one train operates on the branch. They are essentially lone wolf operations. There is absolutely no impediment to a lone wolf operating anything up to a prototypical operation. The only place a lone wolf has problems is with train meets and interactions with other trains. But there are lots of places where trains operate by themselves and never make train meets or interact with other trains. That is a choice of what operation you are trying to model. If you chose and operation that requires many operators and are lone wolf, then yes the operation will fail because you didn't (to quote the Indiana Jones franchise) "choose wisely". There are a lot of different ways to operate. There are a lot of different methods and degrees of operation. If it seems like a lot of work, do something else. There are lots of options. I tried to ask questions about what was being done, but was blown off. Regardless, just because one method didn't work for a person there are lots of other options out there. Computer lists, tag on car, "wheel reports", etc. If you don't like one method try another. Many options for operation besides car cards.
dehusman, I don't think your quite following Rich and my line of thought on operating "Lone Wolf". Without doubt there are real live railroading situations where one train, by itself, travels up a branch to do the work needed doing there. There can be the exact same thing on any model railroad layout that has a branch. The problem is not the "realness" of the situation, the problem is how monotonous doing the same thing, over and over again, by one's self is!
Above, you alluded to asking questions about what I was doing that I was finding boring and that "you were blown off"! I don't feel I blew you off. I felt I described what I was doing sufficiently well in my first post!
I have brought this thought along from the start and that is: Operating by myself is not holding my attention. I continue to attempt to find pleasure in doing so and continue to be interested in operations and read much of what is stated here and elsewhere on the subject. I believe what is missing for me, is the camaraderie of doing operations with others. I have taken steps and am continuing to attempt to find others in my area who would have the same interest; but, may have to face the fact that, where I love to live, this may never happen.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
richhotrain My point is that a real railroad is supported by the interaction of thousands of employees at all levels who coordinate and cooperate to make the railroad operate smoothly. A lone wolf running a model railroad has the sole responsibility for each and every aspect of making that layout operate smoothly.
And if you are a layout owner on a layout that has multiple operators you STILL have most of those responsibilities. I have room for 6 operators on my layout. They run trains, I do everything else. I had to design the layout, I had to develop all the paperwork, I have to keep the schedules of trains to run up to date, I have to maintain the equipment, I have to maintain the track, I have to bill the cars between sessions, I have to restage the trains, I have to do all the same stuff that a lone wolf would do. The only thing I don't do during an operating session is run trains.
So in reality, the lone wolf actually should be having MORE fun during operations, because unlike the typical multiple operator layout owner the lone wolf actually gets to run trains.
And that's certainly an option. I would hate for somebody to try once to operate and not like THAT method and wash off all operations. Don't like handling car cards? Don't use car cards. Don't like having specific cars going to specific industries? Don't have specific cars go to specific industries.
Old joke, "Doctor, it hurts when I bend my arm this way." "Well don't bend your arm that way."
If you don't like operations then don't design your layout for operations, design your layout for running trains, and yes there are design features that make that better. You probably want a large, visible yard or staging yard with tracks that are close to the same length to queue up trains to run and display your equipment. You probably want a double track main so you can run multiple trains at the same time. Rather than stations, you probably want to organize the scenery into "scenes".
For socialization, rather than a club with a fixed layout join a modular club or an NMRA division with a modular set up. Modules normally have little or no operations (from a car forwarding perspective) and the members are usually very laid back with regard to what people run.
dehusman richhotrain My point is that a real railroad is supported by the interaction of thousands of employees at all levels who coordinate and cooperate to make the railroad operate smoothly. A lone wolf running a model railroad has the sole responsibility for each and every aspect of making that layout operate smoothly. And if you are a layout owner on a layout that has multiple operators you STILL have most of those responsibilities. I have room for 6 operators on my layout. They run trains, I do everything else. I had to design the layout, I had to develop all the paperwork, I have to keep the schedules of trains to run up to date, I have to maintain the equipment, I have to maintain the track, I have to bill the cars between sessions, I have to restage the trains, I have to do all the same stuff that a lone wolf would do. The only thing I don't do during an operating session is run trains.
Dave, that is actually the point of this thread.
A lone wolf operator does not have to do all of that stuff.
As a lone wolf, I don't have to develop paperwork. I don't have to keep schedules of trains. I don't have to bill the cars between sessions. I don't have to restage the trains.
There need not be any argument or dispute between those who operate and those who don't operate.
I admire your enthusiasm for operations. It might be fun to observe one of your operating sessions.
it is just that operations don't necessarily hold the interest of some lone wolf model railroaders.
richhotrain A lone wolf operator does not have to do all of that stuff. As a lone wolf, I don't have to develop paperwork. I don't have to keep schedules of trains. I don't have to bill the cars between sessions. I don't have to restage the trains.
As a none lone wolf operator I don't have to do those things either. I could just have a bunch of friends over, hand them a throttle and tell them to "run trains".
Being a lone wolf has nothing to do with it. The difference isn't how many people that are standing in the room, the difference is how much formality and organization I want when I run trains. That is independent of the number of people in the room.
If I want to operate on a schedule and I am a lone wolf I can do that. If I want paperwork and am a lone wolf, I can do that. If I want to send cars to specific industries and I am a lone wolf, I can do that. Being a lone wolf doesn't mean any more or less complexity on operation EXCEPT any of those things that involve interaction with another trains (train meets, connections, etc). A lone wolf can have schedules, train order, track warrants, car cards, switch ists, interchanges, all the same things that a mulitple operator can have.
If they want them.
And that's my point. Its not that you are the only person standing int he room that determines the operation, its primarily on what you want to do. It is your goals. if you don't want to operate, its not because your are the only guy in the room, its because you don't want to operate. If there were 200 people standing in the room you still wouldn't want to operate.
I agree, but its not BECAUSE you are a lone wolf. Its because you just don't like operations. How many people are standing in the room is irrelevant.
dehusman I agree, but its not BECAUSE you are a lone wolf. Its because you just don't like operations. How many people are standing in the room is irrelevant.
I do like the concept of operations. So does the OP as he has indicated. It is just that operations don't hold our interest.
Not all lone wolf operators have a problem with operations holding their interest. But some do.
And, I will continue to proffer that it is at least in part because of the lone wolf status. Add to that our failure to intimately understand operations because we never experienced it in the real sense as you have.
The OP is looking for others to share the experience with. I have not been looking, but if I wound up with an opportunity to participate in operations with a knowledgeable group, I would be interested in trying it.
In any event, how many people are in the room is relevant. Last summer, I had a fellow modeler and forum member to my house and we tried operations together as novices. We had fun. He left, and I found that operations did not hold my interest. I still do it. I still like it. But, like the OP, it does not hold my interest. There are other aspects of model railroading that I enjoy more.
Lot's of theory, lot's of ideas, lot's of do this and do that. In the long term you either run circles and watch the trains roll, or you build a layout for just you to operate on, (which cuts out the social sideof the hobby), or you have a grandized layout of multiple layers (I have three layers, that is enough for me), or whatever. Layouts designed for clubs are usually quite diferent than the home layout for one or a few.
When I was going to college in Enid Ok, I would work for the Santa Fe in the summers (Enid had/has major wheat rush seasons, mostly summer) and since my dad was an engineer in yard service, I would get the chance to work on the extra board for clerks until the end of August. that was an eye opener as far as seeing how railroads do business, at least that time. Enid was on a branch running from Guthrie OK to Kiowa Ks that was a quiet operation 9 months out of the year. My dad was on the day switch engine, and there was also a night engine. When harvest started there were switch engines on 3 shifts, and in some years, more than one engine on a shift. That is why there were summer clerical jobs.
As a yard clerk, I would report to to the yard office, and be handed several switch lists, which were hard copies for tracks that hadn't had any change since the last check, and a paper/carbon carboard list for tracks that had changed. I would head out, walk each yard track that had changed, write up a whole new list of the cars on that track. These would be returned to the car clerk in the yard office, then I was out checking tracks that might of had changes , using the existing list and writing a new one if needed.
Then I made trips to grain elevators and ran the tracks there, I would take the seal book so I could record seal numbers on box car door before they were opened. Then to Champlin refinery tracks and on and on. Obviously I was in the yard most of my shift. My lists were taken by the car clerk who would maintain and originate switch lists for the engine crews. Sounds like fun? Oh yeah, especially since I was low man on totem pole, and worked the 11P to 7 A shift in the dark with a lantern under my arm.
Those days are long gone, but still very real for anyone with a layout for that era.
In the sixties after college, I went to Topeka HQ and worked, nice office work, they sent me to IBM school to learn about programming 340', 350's and 360's. Nice indoor work. No switch lists. By 1970, programmers were in big demand and I left Santa Fe for another company, and eventually put my college training to work (I had studied for the ministry) and retired as a pastor. But I still remained an active rail fan, HO modeler (yep Santa Fe in Oklahoma).
If I was modeling the 1950's today, I would be in operation heaven. But instead I model Santa Fe just before BNSF so different parameters, and I actually have a couple of computers hooked up for operations.
The point of this tirade? Some like operations, some don't. Some want all the paperwork, some don't. Some want to do this, others want to do that. Find out what about operations appeals to you and you have have your era. I don't use switch lists generated by hand, I use car cards but work them by hand in racks to give me what I like.
Hope this might provide some ideas for those looking to operate.
Bob
NP2626I have brought this thought along from the start and that is: Operating by myself is not holding my attention. I continue to attempt to find pleasure in doing so and continue to be interested in operations and read much of what is stated here and elsewhere on the subject. I believe what is missing for me, is the camaraderie of doing operations with others. I have taken steps and am continuing to attempt to find others in my area who would have the same interest; but, may have to face the fact that, where I love to live, this may never happen.
richhotrain The more that I follow this thread, and the more that I think about operations, the more that I conclude that there is a certain incompatibility between operations and lone wolf model railroading. At the same time, operations is almost essential for clubs and home layouts where groups gather. Think about it. On a real railroad, there is an abundance of personnel to handle all of the duties required to conduct day to day operations. On a model railroad, a lone wolf cannot possibly perform all of those duties, at least not simultaneously, so there is a lot of starting and stopping. No wonder it seems like work. In a club or for a group of home layout operators, the group would get bored quick with just running trains without purpose. Rich
The more that I follow this thread, and the more that I think about operations, the more that I conclude that there is a certain incompatibility between operations and lone wolf model railroading. At the same time, operations is almost essential for clubs and home layouts where groups gather.
Think about it. On a real railroad, there is an abundance of personnel to handle all of the duties required to conduct day to day operations.
In a club or for a group of home layout operators, the group would get bored quick with just running trains without purpose.
Rich,
Your exceptionally astute observation has driven me to comment here. It is an eye opener.
I enjoy the operations that a one train short line would perform. Assembling the train, running the train over the layout, and switching the industries, to name most of them. Conductor and engineer and dispatcher (sort of) all in one.
To fold that thinking into other threads.... That's why I'm a lone wolf modeler and why I have no use for DCC as a control system.
I can't do all of those jobs at a club......and I can't do all of those jobs with multiple trains running at the same time without it becoming too much like work.
- Douglas
Doughless I can't do all of those jobs at a club......and I can't do all of those jobs with multiple trains running at the same time without it becoming too much like work.
dehusman Doughless I can't do all of those jobs at a club......and I can't do all of those jobs with multiple trains running at the same time without it becoming too much like work. There is no way you will even come close to the real work. 8-) 1940's movie
Quite a good overview there...
In my view I like the idea of doing a lot of that..especially when I have some friends over here and we get 13-17 trains all on the go at the same time...the fun that can be had...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
By the way...I have run about 7 trains by myself with no issues...I still like it!!
The following is a look at what makes me tick as far as hobbies are concerned and this is only specific to myself. My other hobby is building and flying R/C airplanes. I've been involved in that hobby for almost 40 years. Right now that hobby is in the back seat while the weather keeps me indoors and involved in this hobby. I have been building and flying R/C long enough that I am fairly bored with the flying aspect of it and if it where only about flying R/C airplanes, I would not likely be involved anymore. Here again, the building aspect of that hobby, building from kits, from plans; or, designing and building airplanes from scratch does hold my attention and I only go out and fly, when the mood strikes me. The big difference in my R/C activities and my model railroading activities is, I belong to a club with around 17 members. I enjoy the commerdory and friendships I have with the these good folks. They are my friends and together out at the flying field we kid around with each other, help each other out, accomplish objectives as a club and have a bunch of fun together. So, my friendships in the model airplane club is a huge part of the attraction for me to that hobby!
So, I fully understand why model railroad operations for myself, alone, doesn't seem to hold my interest/attention!
I'm not speaking ill of operations; or, those who enjoy operations; nor am I attempting to talk others out of getting involved in operations, I've just reiterated (for the umpteenth time) what I think of operations so far!
I don't see a right or wrong, good vs. better, more important vs. less important in this hobby, only what's right for the individual. I am new to the hobby, so right now I am really enjoying the modeling/construction aspect of the hobby. Seeing my visions come to fruition...and working more often then not ...has been very rewarding. I have an extremely long way to go and so very much to learn, but that in itself is interesting to me. I love learning new things and the journey is every bit a part of this hobby as the destination is to me. I know relatively little of railway operations...yet. But I know that operations is something that I eventually want to do on my layout and I am constructing it with this in mind. But whatever keeps your wheels on the rails in this hobby and makes you happy is fine by me in my humble opinion.
Regards, Don
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
blownout cylinder By the way...I have run about 7 trains by myself with no issues...I still like it!!
That's impressive....I don't think I could keep up with seven trains by myself. I lose patience after keeping up with two.
***************************************************************
Just to be clear, RichO and Texas Zephyr sparked some thought w/me. I guess I like doing all of the jobs associated with running trains, notably local trains.
I would think in a club setting, one person gets assigned a job, which may prevent them from doing other jobs during that session. I would think the yardmaster and dispatcher wouldn't get to act as engineer, and so forth. Doing that one job that keeps multiple trains running over the layout during a multiple-hour op session would seem more boring to me compared to doing all of the jobs associated with running just one train over the layout, which is what I do at home.
Not right or wrong or better or worse....just seems like a little different point of view than what the OP expressed.
Doughless Just to be clear, RichO and Texas Zephyr sparked some thought w/me. I guess I like doing all of the jobs associated with running trains, notably local trains.
Doing that one job that keeps multiple trains running over the layout during a multiple-hour op session would seem more boring to me compared to doing all of the jobs associated with running just one train over the layout, which is what I do at home.
..just seems like a little different point of view than what the OP expressed.
Texas Zepher ..just seems like a little different point of view than what the OP expressed. I don't know that it is a different point of view or a different level of experience.
I'm unable to follow the above comment. Because I am the OP and have been included in the comment, it appears to me that you are saying that my opinion on operation comes from my inexperience and not as I maintain, from the fact that I have been doing my operations, as a "Lone Wolf".
While I will admit that my experience in operations is as a beginner, I know enough about myself to be able to determine what it is about something, that I don't like!
I have been into Model Railroading since I was 5 or 6 years old. I originally had a fairly large layout using American Flyer S gauge equipment.
Even back then - not knowing I was a Lone Wolf - I was trying to OPERATE my trains!
Why else would I need Turnouts and Operating Accessories - I knew that there was a reason that the Mfg made all of this OPERATING accessories.
As I learned more and more about Trains and Model Trains I began seeing a large discrepancy in the way MOST Modelers were modeling a Railroad.
THEY had their Trains going around in circles - WHY?
The real Railroads didn't do that - SO WHY were they doing the Roundy- Round thing?
As time went on and I joined a CLUB back in 1984 - Again this is what I found - This ROUNDY-Round mentality !
When I would suggest that REAL RAILROADS did NOT do the ROUNDY-Round I was given the Deer In the Headlights Look!
I kept pushing the OPERATIONS thing but in a CLUB atmosphere the visiting Public only wanted to see trains running - NOT OPERATIONS - TOO Boring!
When I began my current Layout - I knew that OPERATIONS was the only reason I was building it and there were many members of the CLUB I beloged to felt the same way.
The Club was open to the Public and ROUNDY-Round was always going to be the way it was.
My home layout (now 12 years old) has been having OPERATIONS every 2 weeks throughout the year.
In a town of 6000 and with most other local towns within an hours drive most are about the same size.
But I can pull 20 OPERATORS for my twice a Month OPs Sessions when the weather is good!
I have had some come from 80 miles away in an evening just to run on a Thursday night.
Back in the late 70's I got back into trains and built an Operations type of layout and used Sequential Cards to move the cars.
Running Lone Wold was OK as we had not started the CLUB yet!
My 2 boys were very young then but I had a lot more fun OPERATING when they were down running the trains with me.
When I joined the Club - I was able to make a lot of new friends and YES the Politics was a Problem.
But the Friendships were the real winner here and when the my large Layout was up and running - Guess What - they were there ready to RUN!
No Politics at my house!
No Worry about Dues or Money - as it was all mine and I was in charge!
I had to correct maybe one person once in remembering just Whose LAYOUT this was - THEY Left!
So being a Lone Wolf as far as Building the Layout
I am Guilty! - I have certain Standards that have to be met!
I am NOT going to watch over all my helpers to be sure MY STANDARDS are being met!
So the Layout is not being built as fast as some think it should but then again I have ask those that suggest that I should do this or that about a LARGE Monetary Contribution and I have YET to see anything ! ;-)
So the layout is progressing at my speed and besides it is my Retirement Project and if I get it done Great - if NOT then my Kids have to deal with the removal of the layout - it won't be my problem any longer!!!
But I plan on having OPs Sessions every two weeks until I die - SO as one can see Operations was and is the only reason I built a layout in the first place.
If it wasn't the reason - I could have just sit over at the Club and watch the trains running Endless Circles and getting bored!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Adding to my earlier comments about operations on my Santa Fe, my operating mode is based on the car cards which I have been doing since the early 1960's. However, I can operate the railroad with a group, when there are no group operations scheduled, I can operate by myself using a seqeunce operation with trains starting from whever they tied up (last shutdown) and keep things going. I have often found myself with the NCE throttle in one hand and the consist (car cards) in another. I can move a train along the mainline to the next station, tie it down on a siding and move to another operation. I keep track of everything on a laptop at the dispatcher's desk and I operate lone wolf just fine, May take a month or two longer to finish, but I do finish unless I am having a group operation session in the middle.
NP2626 Texas Zepher ..just seems like a little different point of view than what the OP expressed. I don't know that it is a different point of view or a different level of experience. I'm unable to follow the above comment. Because I am the OP and have been included in the comment, it appears to me that you are saying that my opinion on operation comes from my inexperience and not as I maintain, from the fact that I have been doing my operations, as a "Lone Wolf". While I will admit that my experience in operations is as a beginner, I know enough about myself to be able to determine what it is about something, that I don't like!
I doubt I have 30 years left and from what I've seen of most 90 year olds, I'd have a hard time with my duck under. If it's going to take that long, I'm just going to decide to live with my present knowledge that I don't find operations interesting!