NP2626I think we need to get back to my original intent and question, which was: After trying out operations, how many folks find that operations do not hold your interest?
I look forward to the various Op until you Drop sessions that happen about 1 every 6 months or so. The last one we all went to run on the layouts in Kansas City.
As soon as it becomes "work" and not an enjoying puzzle or social game (see how many extra ore trains one can run through the scheduled trains, or see how On-Time a given set of trains can be, etc), then it is time to take a step back and reconsider.
NP2626 I think we need to get back to my original intent and question, which was: After trying out operations, how many folks find that operations do not hold your interest? If you want to talk about how you've set-up operations and operate your railroad, please start your own thread! Not to slight anyone; or, cause friction; but, I think this is only fair!
I think we need to get back to my original intent and question, which was: After trying out operations, how many folks find that operations do not hold your interest?
If you want to talk about how you've set-up operations and operate your railroad, please start your own thread! Not to slight anyone; or, cause friction; but, I think this is only fair!
You really don't want to talk about "operations", what you really want to talk about why people don't like operations.
Interesting.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman NP2626 I think we need to get back to my original intent and question, which was: After trying out operations, how many folks find that operations do not hold your interest? If you want to talk about how you've set-up operations and operate your railroad, please start your own thread! Not to slight anyone; or, cause friction; but, I think this is only fair! You really don't want to talk about "operations", what you really want to talk about why people don't like operations. Interesting.
Well, I suspect that since NP2626 is not truly enjoying the Operations experience, he is probably wondering if it is only him or if others feel the same way. Fair question in my mind.
The responses of those who enjoy Operations are interesting, and I admire their enthusiasm. But, the OP is looking for vaidation of his feelings on the matter from those who feel the same way.
Rich
Alton Junction
dehusman You really don't want to talk about "operations", what you really want to talk about why people don't like operations. Interesting.
Thank you Rich, you explained my position precisely. I don't see that as too difficult to understand, either. As quite a few have explained (myself included) there are many facets to this hobby. From the lack of direct response to my question in the affirmative, I will assume that most who have responded, enjoy operations. I'm absolutely fine with that and understand their right to enjoy the hobby the way they want to. I like to build models and work on my layout. I suspect there are a few out there who understand where I'm coming from!
dehusman, it's not that I'm not interested in reading about operations, it's that my intent for this thread was not about operations!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Don't worry NP, you are not alone. It just feels that way at times. But on the bright side, this months issue of MR has a couple of good construction articles for us. Haven't been able to dig to deep yet due to work schedule, but the photos with Brooks Stover's small industry article are dragging me in.
I have only given a cursory look at the current issue of MR and found the Brooks Stover building article to look very interesting! I think Model Railroader does a great job of staying on top of the hobby and is reflective of what most model rails want to see. Quite often there are articles on an aspect of the operation of your railroad. Less often than used to be, how to build structures; or, rolling stock.
With what my interests are in this hobby, for the most part, I am able to deduce what appears to be most popular with contemporary modelers. I also feel because I have different ideas about what is fun/interesting in the hobby, there is less tolerance for my ideas that are not in the mainstream. This presents a "narrow mindedness" in some, about this hobby that I find out of place in an activity done for fun!
Question.............................
Does anyone really care if another MR dislikes or disagrees with any aspect of the Hobby?
Frankly, I could not care less if someone loves or strongly dislikes operations, or a particular scale, or operating system, or railroad, or time period, or weathering, or whatever.
I certainly have my preferences, and have had them for umpteen years. But they are MY preferences, and that is all that matters to me. If another MR has similar, that is great. If they totally disagrees, well that is their privilege.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
NP 2626 ,As I stated I use CC/WB but,at times I don't feeling like fooling with cc/wbs and I just switch cars out at the industries..I still enjoy that simple and fun style of switching.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I love operations...especially around what is called 'high season' here. Around then we can have upwards of 9-14 trains running all at once..including the local passenger runs
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
mobilman44 Question............................. Does anyone really care if another MR dislikes or disagrees with any aspect of the Hobby? Frankly, I could not care less if someone loves or strongly dislikes operations, or a particular scale, or operating system, or railroad, or time period, or weathering, or whatever. I certainly have my preferences, and have had them for umpteen years. But they are MY preferences, and that is all that matters to me. If another MR has similar, that is great. If they totally disagrees, well that is their privilege.
Mobilman44, please give me an outline of what it is I'm supposed to talk about here on the Model Railroad Forums, if not my own thoughts on things. Also, if a thread has no interest to you, why do you even post anything in it?
Actually, this thread and most others are of interest to me - to one degree or another.
What bothers me, is that so many of the "versus" threads turn into unnecessary disagreements. You know, sometimes folks post those "versus" threads for that very purpose - to cause the commotion that they know will surely follow.
Of course one can and should talk of their own thoughts on various MR subjects, as that is a primary purpose of the Forum. But when one does that, we are opening ourselves to folks who prefer other methods, scales, likes, and dislikes. And, like it or not, we need to respect those differing opinions as "ok", for they are no better, or no worse than ours..................
ENJOY,
mobilman44 Actually, this thread and most others are of interest to me - to one degree or another. What bothers me, is that so many of the "versus" threads turn into unnecessary disagreements. You know, sometimes folks post those "versus" threads for that very purpose - to cause the commotion that they know will surely follow. Of course one can and should talk of their own thoughts on various MR subjects, as that is a primary purpose of the Forum. But when one does that, we are opening ourselves to folks who prefer other methods, scales, likes, and dislikes. And, like it or not, we need to respect those differing opinions as "ok", for they are no better, or no worse than ours.................. ENJOY, Mobilman44
Couldn't agree more! However, comments like: "Here we go again"; or, I knew this thread was bound to cause controversy, I consider as attempts to get them headed that way! Say what you need to say and leave your predictions on the lock-down or demise of a thread to yourself!
edited, sorry folks I was off topic.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
mobilman44 What bothers me, is that so many of the "versus" threads turn into unnecessary disagreements.
What bothers me, is that so many of the "versus" threads turn into unnecessary disagreements.
Threads that start with a negative premise tend to get into disagreements more quickly than those with a positive or neutral premise. "Why I don't like steam engines." will be more likely to spiral into the dirt than "Why I like steam engines." or "What type of engines do you like?" The negative premise can immediately put the people with the opposite viewpoint on the defensive. Not saying its right or they should be on the defensive, but based on what I've seen on the forums, it tends to go that way.
Burlington Northern #24 I was thinking, and am thinking about how I can tie in passenger and freight operations into the not yet figured out or drawn track plan. I was looking at how to model passenger train operations and was drawn to a thread that was posted here in 2010. what I'm wondering is train priority, what's above what? how can one include "extra's", if there is a train waiting on another but the track block is clear can the waiting train advance, switching passenger trains what get's cut and switched and loaded? I'd really like to do operations, I was doing on the fly ones on my other layout just sorta switching and moving cars on the fly. I have plenty of notecards that I could write a car/loco's # and info on and make trains up, would that be easier than "otf" ops?
I was thinking, and am thinking about how I can tie in passenger and freight operations into the not yet figured out or drawn track plan. I was looking at how to model passenger train operations and was drawn to a thread that was posted here in 2010.
what I'm wondering is train priority, what's above what? how can one include "extra's", if there is a train waiting on another but the track block is clear can the waiting train advance, switching passenger trains what get's cut and switched and loaded?
I'd really like to do operations, I was doing on the fly ones on my other layout just sorta switching and moving cars on the fly. I have plenty of notecards that I could write a car/loco's # and info on and make trains up, would that be easier than "otf" ops?
I would suggest starting a separate thread on your ops so this thread isn't hijacked by a discussion on operations. I'd love to discuss it, but this isn't the thread.
I'm unsure if dehusman felt I started this thread with a negative premise; or, if this was a statement about threads, in general.
I've never thought one way; or, the other about whether a thread I've started could be taken as a negative; or, a positive statement about something. Negative and positive things are a part of our daily life and a constant. Quite frankly, if I needed to consider this aspect of what I want to say, here on Model Railroader's Forum, I would consider this forum to be a Polly Anna look at reality and therefore pretty much worthless to participate at.
There is good advice given here, there is also constant bikering over this advice, when it's given! So, how could anyone be expected to always post happy thoughts?
NP2626I'm unsure if dehusman felt I started this thread with a negative premise; or, if this was a statement about threads, in general.
Pretty sure it is in direct reply to you!
NP2626dehusman, it's not that I'm not interested in reading about operations, it's that my intent for this thread was not about operations!
Some people have no appreciation for irony! You start a thread on operation, then declare it is _not_ about operation, and then are puzzled why someone posts that the thread is not a good place to discuss operation!
Every one should go back and read the last sentence in the original post.
Here it is.
If there is a question in this post, it is: How many others have found out that operations did not hold their interest?
So, it's really not about operations but, rather, a chance for those for whom operations do not hold their interest to weigh in.
Depends on the operations.
Freight would not hold my interest no matter how you slice it.
Running the New York City Subway system, now THAT is interesting, especially since I am not the one who has to drive the trains. Scraping the Wall on the Broadway Local is as boring in North Dakota as it is in New York City.
Watching the trains run is enjoyable, and operating the tower is indeed interesting.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
While I dont have a large layout, I have been an armchair model railroader for years. I have watched videos and read articles on cards, waybills and other systems with the intent that my future layout would use these. I have designed my layout with prototypical operations in mind.
I do a lot of technical work in chemistry. I get a little tired of problem solving and managing budgets. When I read articles on prototypical operations, my mind starts to wander and I find it all kind of tedious, as in accounting tedious. I wonder that, when I build my medium sized layout, If I really want to deal with tracking cars, cards, and bills. That sounds like non-enjoyable work to me. For now I imagine myself operating my layout on the fly with very simple switching and sorting chores (which I do now on the small one). So I think I'm with you on this one NP262.
I'm actually a little surprised more people who have the space, dont build more "spaghetti" type layouts with multiple trains runing around independently of one another. I have seen some outdoor layouts a little like that. Or maybe you have a main part of the layout with some "operations" in mind while having some higher and lower loops where whole trains just appear and disappear and thats all they do. This instead of helix connected multideck layouts.
Spaghetti is complicated and belongs on a plate, not on a train table.
LION had big spaghetti layout and could not run it. Now him has a SIMPLE layout:
How simple is it?
It may look complicated but it is so simple even a LION can run it.
alco_fan NP2626I'm unsure if dehusman felt I started this thread with a negative premise; or, if this was a statement about threads, in general. Pretty sure it is in direct reply to you! NP2626dehusman, it's not that I'm not interested in reading about operations, it's that my intent for this thread was not about operations! Some people have no appreciation for irony! You start a thread on operation, then declare it is _not_ about operation, and then are puzzled why someone posts that the thread is not a good place to discuss operation!
Actually, as Rich has stated, I did not start this thread to be about operation! From the very first post, this thread described that I had found operations (so far) to be rather boring. There is no IRONY here.
This is a great demonstration in people either not comprehending what has been said; or, twisting what's been said, to suit there own agendas.
NP2626 this thread described that I had found operations (so far) to be rather boring.
At one time, I did have operations on the layout as far as switching industries,tried car cards,it became a hassle, as far as a lot of the cars had the same number.. I just couldn't see myself changing all those tiny numbers... Accurail I know you can send $$ in to them and they will send you different numbers,bur what about the other makers??? For the people who model the Intermodal side of railroading, the tub cars with half of the containers, with the same number... Just a thought!!!
Cheers,
Frank
Ok, let's see to answer the primary premise of the thread. Operations have intrigued me, I did some Lone wolf OTF ops on my previous layout(some of the best times I ever enjoyed from that layout). I have yet to find them boring, if I do or I'm just to tired to goof around with it my layout(soon to be) will also be a "sit and watch em run" while I go railfanning.
Where to start with operations? As a new hire switchman with the Santaa Fe, I learned what I did not know, that I did not know, after many years of model railroading and steam excursion operations. I would like to do stuff like Stretch Braking a steam train, but the control technology isn't there yet.
Meanwhile, there is a whole world of 1:1 railroad operations, waiting to be explored and adapted to model railroading. Start with The Art of Model Railroading, by Frank Ellison, to get a feel for how the Drama of railroading can be played out on a model railroad.
I haven't read Ellison's book; however, I have read McClellen's The V&O Story, Westcott's Model Railroading with John Allen, Operations books by Bruce Chubb, Andy Sperandeo and Tony Koester, multitudinous amounts of articles in various magazines on the subject. I've also read posts relating to operations and posted a few threads asking how it's done, here on the Model Railroader Forum. I feel I've read a goodly amount on the subject.
Despite some people thinking I am against operations and that this is an anti-operations thread, I continue to read about operations, as I have an interested in it and I continue to do Car Card and Waybill operations on my layout. I have just found the operations I've done to be similar to jobs I've done during my working career and so far haven't found it holds my interest, like other facets of the hobby do.
I get a little tired of problem solving and managing budgets. When I read articles on prototypical operations, my mind starts to wander and I find it all kind of tedious, as in accounting tedious.
Interesting. Not to hijack the thread, but I actually find accounting interesting although not to the extent of extending it to model railroading and I do enjoy financial planning. Even though I was in IT for years, I still enjoy problem solving despite no longer getting paid to solve problems.
Model railroading is the only hobby I can think of where the aficionado can actually simulate significant visible aspects of a business. There are model ship builders, but there is no such hobby as model shipping, model navy or model fishing (as in "Deadliest Catch"). One can build model airplanes and fly them, but there is no such hobby as model airline nor model air force. There's no hobby called model trucking although there certainly are people who build model trucks.
This is a big tent hobby and can cover a multitude of interests. I happen to find operation (with the exception of running through trains) intensely fascinating whether it be local switching, being yardmaster or dispatching. The enjoyment of dispatching came as somewhat a surprise after the first couple of times especially since dispatching separates you from being able to see the trains.
Andre
The more that I follow this thread, and the more that I think about operations, the more that I conclude that there is a certain incompatibility between operations and lone wolf model railroading. At the same time, operations is almost essential for clubs and home layouts where groups gather.
Think about it. On a real railroad, there is an abundance of personnel to handle all of the duties required to conduct day to day operations.
On a model railroad, a lone wolf cannot possibly perform all of those duties, at least not simultaneously, so there is a lot of starting and stopping. No wonder it seems like work.
In a club or for a group of home layout operators, the group would get bored quick with just running trains without purpose.
I have alluded to operations with others, probably being more interesting several times in this thread, Rich, so I would agree with you.
So, this brings me to another question: I'd like to ask if any of you who are enjoying operations are doing it Lone Wolf, and if you are, how are you doing it?