"JaBear" I suspect that we're debating from the same side of the fence. Cheers, the Bear.
I suspect that we're debating from the same side of the fence.
Cheers, the Bear.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Or, maybe you two are just in "violent agreement".
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
BATMAN . Just like anything else learned, this takes effort. Effort by the parents to make sure they not only teach us how to behave, but also take the time to explain why we should behave that way.
. Just like anything else learned, this takes effort. Effort by the parents to make sure they not only teach us how to behave, but also take the time to explain why we should behave that way.
Gidday Brent, Put in that context your original use of the phrase "....generally lazy......." makes a certain amount of sense, however as a parent (and having the reputation of being an unrepentant undiplomatic so an so, though that is no excuse for a lack of manners ) I would suggest that teaching your kids good behaviour and the reasons for it should not be an effort but a normal part of parental responsibility.
That said I suspect that we're debating from the same side of the fence.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Geared SteamThat's something to brag about
Yes it is seeing I keep my life simple as possible..I never fell into the human rat race like most folks and yet lived a simple comfortable life for 65 years..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Your strawman logic doesn't hold water since all you are doing is complicating the simplicity of kicking cars.There is no math involved if there was you wouldn't hear a loud "bang" as the cars coupled-if the kicked car(s) didn't stop short before making the joint... I doubt if I do simple math more then twice a week and then I use a calculator for adding and (mostly) subtracting.
Your strawman logic doesn't hold water since all you are doing is complicating the simplicity of kicking cars.There is no math involved if there was you wouldn't hear a loud "bang" as the cars coupled-if the kicked car(s) didn't stop short before making the joint...
I doubt if I do simple math more then twice a week and then I use a calculator for adding and (mostly) subtracting.
That's something to brag about.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Dear Friends
I don't understand the original poster's complaint.
The whole reason I'm here is to learn, so how-tos appeal to me enormously. I love internet forums, more than modeling itself, and am a member of more than 130.
A key skill for deriving gratification from internet forums is being able to find posters you like and/or respect and admire. This forum isn't much different from the other forums of which I'm a member, though its contributors are older and more polite.
Paulus Jas
"Batman"Ask any Psychologist why so many people spew forth with hate, vile and negativity, and the good Doctor will tell you that people are generally lazy by nature
if this remark has to do with this forum, it's IMHO way out of line. I am participating quite some years, apart from a very occasional eruption this forum is amazingly peaceful.
"JaBear"Besides, in my opinion for what its worth, its not laziness that brings forth .......
"JaBear" Here we can witness a huge difference. The Bear is pretty clear, he is giving his opinion, while Batman is hiding behind a doctor. I asked my shrink, sic,...he found Batman's statement completely nonsence. I should better be on the couch as well. (whose couch??) Smile Paul
Here we can witness a huge difference. The Bear is pretty clear, he is giving his opinion, while Batman is hiding behind a doctor. I asked my shrink, sic,...he found Batman's statement completely nonsence.
I should better be on the couch as well. (whose couch??)
Smile
Paul
I have no skin in this game, but your exchange, you two, reminds me of an old ad in magazines dealing with a brand of cigarettes going back to the 60's. It showed the contented user smoking his prefered brand, but sporting a black eye. The caption went, "He'd rather fight than switch."
In that sense, I think I understand what Brent means. I think he means that the vitriol and posturing from many people posting on forums and news groups (yahoo home page news item discussion are a laugh a minute) is an expression of inconvenience, intolerance or resistance to change, and a general sloth mentally...or being mentally lazy and not wanting to adopt the views that the other person is offering, even when it appears, if he were honest, to be correct or to have a better mouse trap.
Crandell
As someone alluded to it earlier, Larry, it's much easier to be brash and reckless behind a keyboard than to say the same thing to another person's face. Two of the reasons I include my name at the bottom of each post is to:
And, yes - there have been a few instances where I wish I had an "anonymous" account.
tstage has more to do with what goes on in a person's own heart than his or her own environment.
Maybe its keyboard bravado?
BATMAN For most of us it was our parents that taught us how to behave. How we were brought up determines how well we can fit in to society in an acceptable manner. Just like anything else learned, this takes effort. Effort by the parents to make sure they not only teach us how to behave, but also take the time to explain why we should behave that way... You are quite right when you say it is ignorance is the reason for bad manners and anti social behaviour. However as with anything, it is never to late to learn or succeed at anything, it just requires putting in the effort. Unfortunately too many of us try to put the car in gear without first pushing in the clutch.
For most of us it was our parents that taught us how to behave. How we were brought up determines how well we can fit in to society in an acceptable manner. Just like anything else learned, this takes effort. Effort by the parents to make sure they not only teach us how to behave, but also take the time to explain why we should behave that way...
You are quite right when you say it is ignorance is the reason for bad manners and anti social behaviour. However as with anything, it is never to late to learn or succeed at anything, it just requires putting in the effort. Unfortunately too many of us try to put the car in gear without first pushing in the clutch.
It's undeniable that ignorance, lack of training, and upbringing does play a part in our behavior as an adult. However, well-mannered folks can still come out bad upbringings, and poor manners and rudeness out of the best of situations. It has more to do with what goes on in a person's own heart than his or her own environment. That's why folks are so quick to blame everyone else for their actions and claim they were the victim.
"JaBear" Besides, in my opinion for what its worth, its not laziness that brings forth anti-social behaviour, but ignorance and bad, or lack of manners. Now I had better lie back on the "couch". Cheers, the Bear.
Besides, in my opinion for what its worth, its not laziness that brings forth anti-social behaviour, but ignorance and bad, or lack of manners.
Now I had better lie back on the "couch".
Bear.
For most of us it was our parents that taught us how to behave. How we were brought up determines how well we can fit in to society in an acceptable manner. Just like anything else learned, this takes effort. Effort by the parents to make sure they not only teach us how to behave, but also take the time to explain why we should behave that way.
I am no different than anyone else. I often find myself biting my tongue when I am about to blurt out something I shouldn't. I then put the effort into choosing my words or actions more carefully.
If the traffic sign warning of a sharp curve says,"Hey dork, there is a sharp curve ahead". it can be highly offensive in spite of the well meaning warning.
Depends on the person. A lot of people would fail to make the curve because they're laughing so hard.
Andre
Doughless Just have a point to make and try to stick to it despite all of the noise that might come back at you.
Just have a point to make and try to stick to it despite all of the noise that might come back at you.
I've seen forum members on this and other forums that had thin skin and took everything personal instead of a different point of view and forum replies amounts to exactly that..
The problem I see with this hobby there is several ways to do the same thing and each way amounts to a point of view through hands on experience..
richhotrain dehusman A lot of time "negativity" is pointing out legitimate pitfalls. The traffic sign that warns of a sharp curve or steep grade ahead is not insulting my driving ability, its warning me of potential problems so I can take corrective or preventative action or be prepared. True, but it is also how you say it. If the traffic sign warning of a sharp curve says,"Hey dork, there is a sharp curve ahead". it can be highly offensive in spite of the well meaning warning. So, even with 40+ years of experience, it is all in how you present it to the novice. Rich
dehusman A lot of time "negativity" is pointing out legitimate pitfalls. The traffic sign that warns of a sharp curve or steep grade ahead is not insulting my driving ability, its warning me of potential problems so I can take corrective or preventative action or be prepared.
A lot of time "negativity" is pointing out legitimate pitfalls. The traffic sign that warns of a sharp curve or steep grade ahead is not insulting my driving ability, its warning me of potential problems so I can take corrective or preventative action or be prepared.
True, but it is also how you say it.
So, even with 40+ years of experience, it is all in how you present it to the novice.
Rich
Compared to face-to-face conversations, an internet forum is horrible. It opens up many ideas to many people; but writing skills, time allocation, or just not caring about the consequences of a statement (like you might get punched in the mouth if you said that in person), all contribute to the problem. Both the repliers and the OP bear greater responsibility to stay focused on the goal of the thread when it gets sidetracked by emotional outbursts.
BTW, I think Sux had about 2 stars worth of posts. I don't recall his posts ever standing out like the last few did. The one that alerted me to his (or her) attitude was the "How do I free a trapped locomotive" thread. That one got ugly fast because Sux was unwilling to incorporate the simple solutions needed to fix the problem, and basically claimed we were trying to oppress him when we suggested either adding some track or change his operating plan so the locomotive didn't get trapped in the first place.
Like I said, the other 2 stars worth of posts never stood out to me.
Makes me wonder if he just didn't go through some personal crisis recently and was mad at the world. Each of his threads were pretty simple, really, and were immediately met with emotional outbursts. Almost like they were created to invite a fight and to vent anger. Even the last one, Do You Wear (a choo-choo) Hat When You (play with your trains)? Speaking of psychology here.....
My overall point being that any person can be having a bad period in their life, or a bad day, and the short amount of time they spend on the forum has the potential of getting all fouled up because of writing something in a way that wasn't really intended or was written too quickly, or was influenced by something that just happened outside of the forum.
- Douglas
dehusman Do I as a modeler with 40 + years of experience have a responsibility to share my knowledge with less experienced modelers or is it better to let them keep making the same mistakes over again?
Trick question..
You,I or any of us can tell a newbie that or this won't work but,it boils down to that old horse and water thing.
What Sux was doing was nothing new under the sun and would have work if he used regular cork roadbed..He would not listen and his method turn into one big fail.
On the other hand telling a newbie sectional back won't work isn't exactly true because my experience using it on a 4x4' layout(I keep forgetting that stupid and boring layout) that I used for about 3 months proves other wise.All of my 6 foot ISLs used sectional track.
Using Atlas snap switches as crossovers will work but,I will never recommend using them.
A lot of the simple hobby basics still work in this simple hobby.
Alton Junction
Case in point in the SUX debacle. After repeated posts questioning the reliability of sectional track, SUX challenged anybody to provide information "proving" his methods would be less reliable. Since there were many things that were LESS reliable (which is not the same as UNreliable) it was pretty easy to come up with one. I posted about the issues that could arise from differences in cork roadbed thickness.
In the very next thread SUX did EXACTLY what I had cautioned about. He used sheet cork instead of cork road bed, which is a significantly different thickness, ended up with a different thickness of track and was having to shim the various track sections to get it to come out level, decreasing the reliability of his system even more and increasing the complexity.
In my mind SUX asked for proof the road had curves, I put up a traffic sign warning about a sharp curve immediately ahead, SUX ignored it and just drove completely off the road.
In my mind if somebody is doing something that isn't coming out well, its better to tell them a better way than to let them continue to do things poorly. At some point they are going to figure what they did wasn't that good and all have to question judgement of all the people who told the person it looked "great'.
If somebody does a weathering job that looks like they dipped a car in a bucket of mud, and I tell that person it, "Looks great, good job!", when they improve and I tell them that the improved attempt "Looks great, good job!", can they trust my judgement? Is my opinion or feed back worth anything to them? How do they know they have improved it the feedback on a crappy job (which by now they can see the first attempt was a crappy job) is the same as the feedback on a truly good job? I'm not saying to be mean or tell them the job looks terrible, but a provide a few suggestions as work from a picture of a car, go much lighter on the weathering, make the weathering flow vertically like rain running down the side of the car.
Should I compromise the integrity of my opinion to ensure I never post anything that anybody could construe as negative? Do I as a modeler with 40 + years of experience have a responsibility to share my knowledge with less experienced modelers or is it better to let them keep making the same mistakes over again? In my professional career we feel we have an obligation to speak up when we see somebody doing something that won't turn out well and to help them do it in a successful way.
Telling people they are doing a good job when they aren't isn't doing them any favors, it's not being honest, it's not caring about them, it's not being respectful of them and its facilitating failure.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BrianinBuffalo Rich and Brent have always been more than helpful to me. So has Randy and the Lion. Sorry if I left someone out. I value some comments more than others. Remember the Hockey thread (oh boy.....). I can only share my experience (limited), strength and hope with others and that is seldom wrong. Analyze this comment and me if you want but I am pretty sure you would get bored.
Rich and Brent have always been more than helpful to me. So has Randy and the Lion. Sorry if I left someone out. I value some comments more than others.
Remember the Hockey thread (oh boy.....).
I can only share my experience (limited), strength and hope with others and that is seldom wrong.
Analyze this comment and me if you want but I am pretty sure you would get bored.
BrianinBuffalo,
I like Your avatar,,,,LOL
Cheer's,
Frank
[/quote]
BATMAN This may be true. However there is a tendency for people on this forum to say what they think without an invitation to do so. Ask any Psychologist why so many people spew forth with hate, vile and negativity, and the good Doctor will tell you that people are generally lazy by nature. It take's more effort to respond in a kind, respectful manner and even more to turn the other cheek.
Gidday Brent, I would have thought that by posting, or replying to a thread on forum such as this, there is an implied open invitation for others to comment, so one should be prepared for a possibly adverse comment.
Rastafarr eaglescoutHopefully newbies have enough common sense to evaluate the responses they get to their questions. As a newbie a couple of years ago I asked a question about using brass track that started a flame and I got many and numerous responses. I did more research and finally made my decision taking into account all the pros and cons. Good lord, I'll second that. A few months back I asked a blazingly stupid question, got a well-reasoned and interesting response, and offered a viewpoint that was, without really meaning to be, powerfully offensive to the person trying to help me. He got mad (rightly, I see now in retrospect). Response received, evaluated, idiocy and blame fully mine, point taken, will endeavour to not repeat the mistake. RichHOtrain, If you're still irritated with me, I am sorry.
eaglescoutHopefully newbies have enough common sense to evaluate the responses they get to their questions. As a newbie a couple of years ago I asked a question about using brass track that started a flame and I got many and numerous responses. I did more research and finally made my decision taking into account all the pros and cons.
Good lord, I'll second that. A few months back I asked a blazingly stupid question, got a well-reasoned and interesting response, and offered a viewpoint that was, without really meaning to be, powerfully offensive to the person trying to help me. He got mad (rightly, I see now in retrospect). Response received, evaluated, idiocy and blame fully mine, point taken, will endeavour to not repeat the mistake.
RichHOtrain, If you're still irritated with me, I am sorry.
LOL
Just stumbled onto this thread and came to this comment.
Irritated?
What did you do or say that would irritate me? I cannot even recall. Tell me more.
Geared Steam Basic math is still the law of mathematics, the law of physics is kicking cars, of course I guess the engineer would have this skill more than a brakeman, know how much throttle to give based on the cars involved.
Basic math is still the law of mathematics, the law of physics is kicking cars, of course I guess the engineer would have this skill more than a brakeman, know how much throttle to give based on the cars involved.
I truly doubt if the engineer was doing any math since he had no clue if the car being kicked was loaded,empty or a stiff roller..All he was required to do was open the throttle "shove 'em west 6133" came across the radio and shut it when "that will do" 6133" came across the radio.As one of the fieldman I line the switches..The conductor usually pulled the pin and no he wasn't doing any math either.
BRAKIE Texas Zepher Some questions people ask have real and correct answers which are not subject to judgement. Once someone has answered that question, there is no further need of other people to "continue" to answer it. Some questions may have other answers then those posted that may be a easier way to do things..
Texas Zepher Some questions people ask have real and correct answers which are not subject to judgement. Once someone has answered that question, there is no further need of other people to "continue" to answer it.
Some questions people ask have real and correct answers which are not subject to judgement. Once someone has answered that question, there is no further need of other people to "continue" to answer it.
BRAKIE Basic math like counting cars is child play.90% of the time there was no need since you know your cut will be between C&O 456320 and ATSF 765652..See how easy? You pulled the cars and stop to make the cut..Of course that was back in the day.. As far as kicking cars..No math needed at all..Shove 'em west for the kick 6133,that will do 6133! pull the pin and watch the car roll..Next car is ready for the kick..Take 'em east 6133 that will do..6133 Shove 'em west for the kick,that'll do 6133.If the car stop before the joint the next car will shove to the joint if not,we'll push the cars to the joint. Doing it your way and you might switch 90 cars in 12 hours. Doing it the way I was taught a heads up crew could flat switch 300-400 cars in 12 hours.. Simple as pie and twice as easy..
Basic math like counting cars is child play.90% of the time there was no need since you know your cut will be between C&O 456320 and ATSF 765652..See how easy? You pulled the cars and stop to make the cut..Of course that was back in the day..
As far as kicking cars..No math needed at all..Shove 'em west for the kick 6133,that will do 6133! pull the pin and watch the car roll..Next car is ready for the kick..Take 'em east 6133 that will do..6133 Shove 'em west for the kick,that'll do 6133.If the car stop before the joint the next car will shove to the joint if not,we'll push the cars to the joint.
Doing it your way and you might switch 90 cars in 12 hours.
Doing it the way I was taught a heads up crew could flat switch 300-400 cars in 12 hours..
Simple as pie and twice as easy..
You use them and just don't realize or want to recognize it.
ONR FAN Some posters don't even have a layout but if you read their posts they know everything there is about building one.
I currently don't have a layout but,you can bet the farm I know how to build one since I've built several over the years.I understand the basics of using caulk only because I seen it used.I've used white glue to hold the track in place on Woodland Scenics foam roadbed on my last layout and plan on using it on the next.
However..
I wonder if one never built or even help build a layout how do they get their experience?
From books? Magazines?
I suspect they do a lot of studying and can answer basic questions or design a layout.
But,having no hands on experience with caulk,glue etc then perhaps they shouldn't answer a topic covering such things?
eaglescout If I get 10 responses that laying track with caulk is the best way to do it even though it has already been stated 9 times I can feel more confident in going that route rather than reading one response with no other affirmations.
If I get 10 responses that laying track with caulk is the best way to do it even though it has already been stated 9 times I can feel more confident in going that route rather than reading one response with no other affirmations.
But what if the majority of the responses are from people that have never actually used caulk. I notice that there are a number of posters here that just agree for no other reason then to just add their comment. Some posters don't even have a layout but if you read their posts they know everything there is about building one.
If I get 10 responses that laying track with caulk is the best way to do it even though it has already been stated 9 times I can feel more confident in going that route rather than reading one response with no other affirmations. Likewise, if I happen to accept one post that says laying track with CA is the best way to do it with no comments to the contrary I will end up with a big mess. Over time I have begun to develp a feel for what information is legitimate on the forum and what information is better forgotten about.
If one really wants a more certified "right way" to do something they would do well to purchase one of the books that cover that part of the hobby. Being cheap I don't want to purchase every book available at $20 a clip, though I have purchased a few. The more critical the process the more I take time and research to make sure I am getting good and reliable information.
I agree that turning the other cheek is the best way to avoid conflict.
But these are not private conversations where someone can just walk away with no consequences.
This is a public forum with world-wide viewing and any viewer can get bad information, or a bad tutorial, that may lead them to think some cobbled together cork and track pieces will replace Atlas Tru-track.
Imagine someone considering the hobby and embarks on his method. Spends the money and gawd-awful time hacking away a perfectly good slab of cork, gluing up perfectly good track, and winds up walking away from the hobby disappointed, all the while blaming a tutorial that he found on a serious publishers website (or wondering if you need to wear a hat to play with trains)
Perhaps it a bit arrogant of us, but some of us were trying to do the viewers a favor by pinning him down to what he was trying to accomplish and to checkmate his evasive and insincere answers.